L'Morai and Dementlieu

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The Lesser Evil
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L'Morai and Dementlieu

Post by The Lesser Evil »

So I've been reading through Carnival of Fear and I notice l'Morai bears certain similarities to Dementlieu. You've got guillotines, psychological/social issues, oppression, a Gendarmerie that is of dubious good to the oppressed, and a populace that clearly desires distraction from the world. If the city of l'Morai wasn't an independent city state, you could easily drop it into Dementlieu. Has anybody else noticed these similarities?
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Re: L'Morai and Dementlieu

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The Lesser Evil wrote:So I've been reading through Carnival of Fear and I notice l'Morai bears certain similarities to Dementlieu. You've got guillotines, psychological/social issues, oppression, a Gendarmerie that is of dubious good to the oppressed, and a populace that clearly desires distraction from the world. If the city of l'Morai wasn't an independent city state, you could easily drop it into Dementlieu. Has anybody else noticed these similarities?

Should I just but the novel, if I can find it at a cheap price?

I've never read it.
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Re: L'Morai and Dementlieu

Post by Lord Loren Soth »

I haven't read the novella, but, couldn't that be the homeworld of Dementlieu? Or maybe the inspiration for the "organisation" called "The Carnival" in Ravenloft?
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Re: L'Morai and Dementlieu

Post by Lord_Pruitt »

ewancummins wrote:
The Lesser Evil wrote:So I've been reading through Carnival of Fear and I notice l'Morai bears certain similarities to Dementlieu. You've got guillotines, psychological/social issues, oppression, a Gendarmerie that is of dubious good to the oppressed, and a populace that clearly desires distraction from the world. If the city of l'Morai wasn't an independent city state, you could easily drop it into Dementlieu. Has anybody else noticed these similarities?

Should I just but the novel, if I can find it at a cheap price?

I've never read it.

If you can find it at a good price, yes. I think it is a good read - not only the first time, but the second and third times as well (you can get some good game material out of them).

And yes - this was the novel that the Carnival product was based upon.
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Re: L'Morai and Dementlieu

Post by brilliantlight »

Lord Loren Soth wrote:I haven't read the novella, but, couldn't that be the homeworld of Dementlieu? Or maybe the inspiration for the "organisation" called "The Carnival" in Ravenloft?
I doubt it, there are a number of differences as well it seems quite well contained. There are no references of anything outside the carnival and the city nearby. The only people that "left" turn out to have been murdered.

I see it as a floating pocket domain inside Ravenloft. In fact I see it as a cyclical curse. The performers are oppressed and routinely murdered by people in the nearby city, they revolt and are led by a respectable person, the leader is captured and sentenced to death with the option of becoming the new Carnival Master, they accept and most performers escape meaning more people have to be picked up on dodgy charges so they can be new "freaks" for the show and the cycle repeats.

The way I see it Marie is not dead. She is now "The Juggler", mistress of the ring after the DP resurrected her. She replaced "The Puppetmaster" and will be replaced with someone else eventually.
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Re: L'Morai and Dementlieu

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brilliantlight wrote: I doubt it, there are a number of differences as well it seems quite well contained. There are no references of anything outside the carnival and the city nearby. The only people that "left" turn out to have been murdered.
There's actually one really obscure reference to a possible land called Helms Deep where the dwarven performers of l'Morai hailed from (see Carnival of Fear p. 163), though it's unclear if this location is inside of l'Morai somewhere or exterior to it. (Interestingly, Helm's Deep is dwarven land from the Lord of the Rings universe, so this may be an Easter egg reference).

The opening made it seem like l'Morai was at least originally some place on the Material Plane, as Juron and Andre Cygne came from somewhere to found l'Morai in the year 1272 of the l'Morai calendar- see CoF 4-5, 304-305). (The current year of the carnies' escape is 1693 on the l'Morai calendar- see CoF p. 118. According to the sourcebook Carnival, Hermos and the carnival folk emerged in Darkon during the year of the Grand Conjunction and eventually fled into Falkovnia, which would mark their arrival in the year 740 BC.)

Given that Juron betrayed his brother and obtained the cursed amulet in 319 BC (a date that predates the formation of Barovia in 351 BC let alone the formation of Forlorn as the second known domain many decades later), we might guess that l'Morai became a domain at some unknown later point.
I see it as a floating pocket domain inside Ravenloft. In fact I see it as a cyclical curse. The performers are oppressed and routinely murdered by people in the nearby city, they revolt and are led by a respectable person, the leader is captured and sentenced to death with the option of becoming the new Carnival Master, they accept and most performers escape meaning more people have to be picked up on dodgy charges so they can be new "freaks" for the show and the cycle repeats.

The way I see it Marie is not dead. She is now "The Juggler", mistress of the ring after the DP resurrected her. She replaced "The Puppetmaster" and will be replaced with someone else eventually.
That's a pretty spot-on interpretation, given the Puppetmaster's seeming immortality and the unaging nature of the Council of l'Morai (whom are all former masters of Carnival l'Morai.) On the other hand, in the epilogue of the book, we see an unknown cat-faced man discovering the pendant and seemingly implying he is the new carnival master, which will eventually have new members from the outcasts of the City l'Morai. The Juggler may have been passed on as a candidate for the pendant's immortality because she allowed herself to be killed by Hermos (or perhaps was deemed too pure to become a true Carnival Master.)

I would guess that the Council of l'Morai share the darklord title (as all former carnival masters who now share political control of the domain) with as you say the passing down of the mantle for the one with the most power but also the greatest curse.
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Re: L'Morai and Dementlieu

Post by brilliantlight »

I see it as a floating pocket domain inside Ravenloft. In fact I see it as a cyclical curse. The performers are oppressed and routinely murdered by people in the nearby city, they revolt and are led by a respectable person, the leader is captured and sentenced to death with the option of becoming the new Carnival Master, they accept and most performers escape meaning more people have to be picked up on dodgy charges so they can be new "freaks" for the show and the cycle repeats.

The way I see it Marie is not dead. She is now "The Juggler", mistress of the ring after the DP resurrected her. She replaced "The Puppetmaster" and will be replaced with someone else eventually.
That's a pretty spot-on interpretation, given the Puppetmaster's seeming immortality and the unaging nature of the Council of l'Morai (whom are all former masters of Carnival l'Morai.) On the other hand, in the epilogue of the book, we see an unknown cat-faced man discovering the pendant and seemingly implying he is the new carnival master, which will eventually have new members from the outcasts of the City l'Morai. The Juggler may have been passed on as a candidate for the pendant's immortality because she allowed herself to be killed by Hermos (or perhaps was deemed too pure to become a true Carnival Master.)

I would guess that the Council of l'Morai share the darklord title (as all former carnival masters who now share political control of the domain) with as you say the passing down of the mantle for the one with the most power but also the greatest curse.
It is also possilble with her "death" she instantly became a member of the council. In that interpretation she would have had a shockingly brief "reign" in which she did almost nothing because she was killed so quickly.

I would also say that the council members are not co-dark lords as they all probably had good intentions. After all both the Puppetmaster and Marie saw it as the lesser of two evils. They are cursed , no doubt, but not dark lords. The Dark Lord is Juron as he commited an Act of Ultimate Darkness by killing his brother so cruelly.
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Re: L'Morai and Dementlieu

Post by Rock of the Fraternity »

Accepting and endorsing evil "for good reasons" is as good a cause for someone to fall into the trap of Darklord status as any other act of evil. Because no matter how fine you slice it, it is still accepting and endorsing evil.

Whether Marie is part of the council now ... Well. Is that the cruelest thing that could happen to her after she agreed to betray and reenslave her friends in return for her life? Mayhap.
Then again, we could argue she intentionally gave herself away so she would be killed and the Carnival could escape. And if that is the case, maybe she redeemed herself enough to be free of the council and l'Morai after death.
It remains uncertain. For this is Ravenloft.
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Re: L'Morai and Dementlieu

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Rock wrote:Accepting and endorsing evil "for good reasons" is as good a cause for someone to fall into the trap of Darklord status as any other act of evil. Because no matter how fine you slice it, it is still accepting and endorsing evil.

Whether Marie is part of the council now ... Well. Is that the cruelest thing that could happen to her after she agreed to betray and reenslave her friends in return for her life? Mayhap.
Then again, we could argue she intentionally gave herself away so she would be killed and the Carnival could escape. And if that is the case, maybe she redeemed herself enough to be free of the council and l'Morai after death.
It remains uncertain. For this is Ravenloft.
It wasn't just her death but the death of everyone she knew if she didn't accept. That would be as bad or worse. This is a "life sometimes just sucks" situation here and the least of evils had to be chosen. The other choice would have been "Let all your friends be killed." which would be evil too. It would take considerably more evil than this grey area to become a Dark Lord IMO.
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Re: L'Morai and Dementlieu

Post by Manofevil »

The truth is every time I think of that penultimate scene of the book where Marie in chains is facing that long gauntlet of townsfolk with their cruel tools ending at the scaffold, the executioner, and the guillotine, I remember an old piece of 70s schlock called 'Breaker! Breaker!' starring Chuck Norris as a trucker who rides into a corrupt town looking for his brother, manages to anger the townsfolk who set upon him lynch mob style, only to be beaten down to the last by his martial arts skills. The movie, as I said, is schlock, but it's the only movie where I've seen a martial artist defeat an entire lynch mob which, according to martial arts scholars, is entirely possible for a martial artist of sufficient skill. Now this scenario would clearly not work for Marie, but I would still like to see the same lynching scene happen in L'Morai, but this time, to an outsider martial artist, who slips his/her chains(or perhaps uses them as weapons), beats down every person in the gauntlet, breaks all their tools, marches up the scaffold, punches out the executioner, smashes the guillotine frame, picks up the guillotine blade, strides back to the council member who offered them the amulet, and uses the blade to cleave the amulet clean in two. Maybe I read too many comic books, but I'd love to see this happen just for the sake of novelty and possibility. But that's just me.
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Re: L'Morai and Dementlieu

Post by The Lesser Evil »

brilliantlight wrote:
It wasn't just her death but the death of everyone she knew if she didn't accept. That would be as bad or worse. This is a "life sometimes just sucks" situation here and the least of evils had to be chosen. The other choice would have been "Let all your friends be killed." which would be evil too. It would take considerably more evil than this grey area to become a Dark Lord IMO.
I agree with you, brilliantlight. This is too much of a catch 22. We also didn't see her perform any real even questionably evil acts before then, so it would've been an abrupt change.
Manofevil wrote:The truth is every time I think of that penultimate scene of the book where Marie in chains is facing that long gauntlet of townsfolk with their cruel tools ending at the scaffold, the executioner, and the guillotine, I remember an old piece of 70s schlock called 'Breaker! Breaker!' starring Chuck Norris as a trucker who rides into a corrupt town looking for his brother, manages to anger the townsfolk who set upon him lynch mob style, only to be beaten down to the last by his martial arts skills. The movie, as I said, is schlock, but it's the only movie where I've seen a martial artist defeat an entire lynch mob which, according to martial arts scholars, is entirely possible for a martial artist of sufficient skill. Now this scenario would clearly not work for Marie, but I would still like to see the same lynching scene happen in L'Morai, but this time, to an outsider martial artist, who slips his/her chains(or perhaps uses them as weapons), beats down every person in the gauntlet, breaks all their tools, marches up the scaffold, punches out the executioner, smashes the guillotine frame, picks up the guillotine blade, strides back to the council member who offered them the amulet, and uses the blade to cleave the amulet clean in two. Maybe I read too many comic books, but I'd love to see this happen just for the sake of novelty and possibility. But that's just me.
Sounds like player character shenanigans just ripe for the picking. Might make for an epic end to a homebrew campaign, or at least a fanfiction. 8)
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Re: L'Morai and Dementlieu

Post by Rock of the Fraternity »

Manofevil wrote:The truth is every time I think of that penultimate scene of the book where Marie in chains is facing that long gauntlet of townsfolk with their cruel tools ending at the scaffold, the executioner, and the guillotine, I remember an old piece of 70s schlock called 'Breaker! Breaker!' starring Chuck Norris as a trucker who rides into a corrupt town looking for his brother, manages to anger the townsfolk who set upon him lynch mob style, only to be beaten down to the last by his martial arts skills. The movie, as I said, is schlock, but it's the only movie where I've seen a martial artist defeat an entire lynch mob which, according to martial arts scholars, is entirely possible for a martial artist of sufficient skill. Now this scenario would clearly not work for Marie, but I would still like to see the same lynching scene happen in L'Morai, but this time, to an outsider martial artist, who slips his/her chains(or perhaps uses them as weapons), beats down every person in the gauntlet, breaks all their tools, marches up the scaffold, punches out the executioner, smashes the guillotine frame, picks up the guillotine blade, strides back to the council member who offered them the amulet, and uses the blade to cleave the amulet clean in two. Maybe I read too many comic books, but I'd love to see this happen just for the sake of novelty and possibility. But that's just me.
o_o

I love this idea.
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Re: L'Morai and Dementlieu

Post by ewancummins »

''You didn't tell me that guy was 15th level!"
Delight is to him- a far, far upward, and inward delight- who against the proud gods and commodores of this earth, ever stands forth his own inexorable self.

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