Timor Question: What About Batman?

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Timor Question: What About Batman?

Post by Leliel »

Woo, been a while since I posted here.

Anyway, I was rereading the Zheristria Gazetteer (part of a joke I'm making for my Let's Read series-one character is going to humorously wonder if a particular Unchained-read here, the New World of Darkness' version of 'fallen angels', a race of spies that would give dread dopplegangers a run for their money-would fit into Paridon's or Lamordia's social scene better, and how disruptive he would be by being a monster monster hunter) and I realized something: Timor's marikithification curse is thematic with the Hive Queen and her own tyranny-but what happens when you inspire fear because it's the right thing to do? In other words, what's happening if you terrify a murderous bandit into backing off because it's either a fight you can't win and will put innocents at risk, or a big bluff game? Or, as the title suggests, what happens if the fear is more about demoralizing a nasty opponent so you can take them down non-lethally and leave them to be tried legally and peacefully rather than assuming they're guilty and just killing them?

I am not thinking there should be blanket immunity for selfless motives for fear, but I think it should cause some interesting resistances to the curse (*cough*transformation without assimilation*cough*).
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Re: Timor Question: What About Batman?

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Firstly, can I ask where this Let's Read of yours is going to be? I was in the "Horror Recognition Guide" one, but I was unaware you had any others apart from the Conquering Heroes one.

Back on topic, given the general habits displayed back the Dark Powers, I'd say that "noble intimidation" would very quickly backfire. You'd start attracting creatures that don't feel fear, or at least not enough to stay scared, in order to see how far you'll go to keep from using violence.

There's a theory occasionally bandied about in various Batman tales that Batman himself actually attracts/provokes the "superfreaks", making him ultimately responsible for their depredations as they rise to challenge him for his "throne". Likewise, some characters - usually designated villains like Red Hood - have brought up the possibility that Batman is responsible for the carnage that afflicts Gotham at the hands of his superfreaks because he won't take appropriate levels of force and end them.

Really... the more I think about it, the more it seems believable that you could paint Batman as a well intentioned extremist turned Darklord; his curse are the superfreaks he constantly battles, whose depredations show him that fighting fear with fear will not - cannot - work, a lesson which he refuses to accept, because it means that what he's done has all been for nothing.
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Re: Timor Question: What About Batman?

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Hell_Born wrote:Firstly, can I ask where this Let's Read of yours is going to be? I was in the "Horror Recognition Guide" one, but I was unaware you had any others apart from the Conquering Heroes one.
That actually was what I was talking about-while I won't spoil it, my brain has since caught up with my humor and there is now a serious reason for it. EDIT: Though what would an Unchained even tag as? Living construct? Native outsider? Monstrous humanoid?

And actually, that's a really good idea. I can't help but wonder if I could invoke the historical Vlad Tepes (man was actually motivated by his hatred of the corrupt aristocracy and populism-not an excuse, but certainly more interesting than Drakov) and Machiavelli (yes, the real guy was not all that bad, but dear god you would not know it from The Prince) too if designing him. Isn't Quoth the Raven focusing on Lights in the Darkness this year? Maybe he could be one of the darklords, showing "good intentions gone horribly awry" as part of the theme.

EDIT: Or even better! All-Star Batman, which I have mostly only seen Linkara's review of, but if we surgically removed the silly dialogue, we have a Bats that is rapidly rolling several powers checks. Or possibly Holy Terror as the moment he crossed the line by funding a terrorist attack to focus his city's fear on an outside enemy and getting them in line.
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Re: Timor Question: What About Batman?

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Leliel wrote:
Hell_Born wrote:Firstly, can I ask where this Let's Read of yours is going to be? I was in the "Horror Recognition Guide" one, but I was unaware you had any others apart from the Conquering Heroes one.
That actually was what I was talking about-while I won't spoil it, my brain has since caught up with my humor and there is now a serious reason for it.

And actually, that's a really good idea. I can't help but wonder if I could invoke the historical Vlad Tepes (man was actually motivated by his hatred of the corrupt aristocracy and populism-not an excuse, but certainly more interesting than Drakov) and Machiavelli (yes, the real guy was not all that bad, but dear god you would not know it from The Prince) too if designing him. Isn't Quoth the Raven focusing on Lights in the Darkness this year? Maybe he could be one of the darklords, showing "good intentions gone horribly awry" as part of the theme.

EDIT: Or even better! All-Star Batman, which I have mostly only seen Linkara's review of, but if we surgically removed the silly dialogue, we have a Bats that is rapidly rolling several powers checks. Or possibly Holy Terror as the moment he crossed the line by funding a terrorist attack to focus his city's fear on an outside enemy and getting them in line.
Ah, I think I found the post that sparked this thread. Thanks for being forthright.

And yes, this would be a character/domain fitting for QtR #24, if you're interested in pursuing him.

Something that may be helpful; two major character flaws of Batman's that modern stories tend to subtly highlight, if not explicitly focus on, are that he's a huge control freak and also something of a hypocrite. It's a recurring problem with his interactions with other heroes that it always has to be his way, or else they can either get out of Gotham or get taken down. Depending on the writer, sometimes this backfires on him, but usually he gets away with it courtesy of popularity power. That'd be useful to characterize your "Batman as Darklord" character.

Also... when you think about it, really, Batman's an incredibly inefficient superhero. It's okay that he wants to focus on street crime, but he's a multi-billionaire in a world of proven supertech; you'd think he'd get himself a suit of exoarmor so that he could more effectively take down his foes without getting hurt himself, but instead he runs around in a glorified kevlar unitard, and so he's always getting bashed up. Now, we know the meta reason for that is character recognition, but think about what that might say about Batman's mentality In Universe, and thusly about the mindset of your Darklord. Obsessiveness? Arrogance? Death seeking? Matyrdom complex? Lot of ways you can spin that.
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Re: Timor Question: What About Batman?

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Hell_Born wrote: Also... when you think about it, really, Batman's an incredibly inefficient superhero. It's okay that he wants to focus on street crime, but he's a multi-billionaire in a world of proven supertech; you'd think he'd get himself a suit of exoarmor so that he could more effectively take down his foes without getting hurt himself, but instead he runs around in a glorified kevlar unitard, and so he's always getting bashed up. Now, we know the meta reason for that is character recognition, but think about what that might say about Batman's mentality In Universe, and thusly about the mindset of your Darklord. Obsessiveness? Arrogance? Death seeking? Matyrdom complex? Lot of ways you can spin that.

Or he could use that incredible wealth to fight crime in ways that don't involve punching it in the face, like a massive urban renewal project in Gotham, since after all statistics would show that a lot more crime is committed by people who feel like they don't have any other way to get by in the world, than by people who actually enjoy committing crimes.

Which in turn raises the question, does Batman want to make Gotham a better place to live, or does he just want to have an entire city full of people he can beat up as an outlet for his grief over his dead parents?
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Re: Timor Question: What About Batman?

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jamesfirecat wrote:
Hell_Born wrote: Or he could use that incredible wealth to fight crime in ways that don't involve punching it in the face, like a massive urban renewal project in Gotham, since after all statistics would show that a lot more crime is committed by people who feel like they don't have any other way to get by in the world, than by people who actually enjoy committing crimes.

Which in turn raises the question, does Batman want to make Gotham a better place to live, or does he just want to have an entire city full of people he can beat up as an outlet for his grief over his dead parents?
In fairness, most modern depictions assert that he does do the conventional "crimefighting with cash" thing, the stories just focus on the "go out and beat-down criminals" parts because they're more interesting than just him rolling money into this charity or that project.
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Re: Timor Question: What About Batman?

Post by Leliel »

Hell_Born wrote:
jamesfirecat wrote:
Hell_Born wrote: Or he could use that incredible wealth to fight crime in ways that don't involve punching it in the face, like a massive urban renewal project in Gotham, since after all statistics would show that a lot more crime is committed by people who feel like they don't have any other way to get by in the world, than by people who actually enjoy committing crimes.

Which in turn raises the question, does Batman want to make Gotham a better place to live, or does he just want to have an entire city full of people he can beat up as an outlet for his grief over his dead parents?
In fairness, most modern depictions assert that he does do the conventional "crimefighting with cash" thing, the stories just focus on the "go out and beat-down criminals" parts because they're more interesting than just him rolling money into this charity or that project.
Yeah, that does make sense. Actually I could make the Batman stand-in similar to the Children of Arkham from the Telltale series. They're pretty explicitly what would happen if Brucie decided to only punish Gotham's criminals rather than heal its wounds.
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Re: Timor Question: What About Batman?

Post by Dark Angel »

Leliel wrote:EDIT: Or even better! All-Star Batman, which I have mostly only seen Linkara's review of, but if we surgically removed the silly dialogue, we have a Bats that is rapidly rolling several powers checks. Or possibly Holy Terror as the moment he crossed the line by funding a terrorist attack to focus his city's fear on an outside enemy and getting them in line.
Good gods, I watched Linkara's review just to better understand your comment. It apparently was spot on and I now find the need to hunt Frank Miller down growing.
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Re: Timor Question: What About Batman?

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Dark Angel wrote:
Leliel wrote:EDIT: Or even better! All-Star Batman, which I have mostly only seen Linkara's review of, but if we surgically removed the silly dialogue, we have a Bats that is rapidly rolling several powers checks. Or possibly Holy Terror as the moment he crossed the line by funding a terrorist attack to focus his city's fear on an outside enemy and getting them in line.
Good gods, I watched Linkara's review just to better understand your comment. It apparently was spot on and I now find the need to hunt Frank Miller down growing.
Yeah, Holy Terror is an excellent example of why propaganda needs to cheat via backing from the state: 85% of it just isn't good. I think Disney's WW2 shorts are the only good ones I recall, and that's because it didn't take itself seriously (Der Furher's Face) or treated the enemy with empathy (Education for Death).

Back on the subject: I think the domain should probably be a clear stand-in for the pre Civil War US (or at least the North-a satire of the South deserves its own domain, probably one closer to Hazlan).
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Re: Timor Question: What About Batman?

Post by Leliel »

Another thing-I'm thinking of a Dread Possibility that one of the villains...isn't really. He's not a good guy, but he's empathetic and recognizes the darklord needs to go.

I was thinking a clear Two-Face stand-in, but for him, the split personality is more like a wizard and a dread familiar than good and evil; the good personality doesn't shove all his dark traits on the bad half, and because of that the bad half is more like Don Corleone than a rampaging psycho; ruthless but honorable and actually pretty friendly and personable. More CG vs LE, with the emphasis on G for the good and L for the bad.
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Re: Timor Question: What About Batman?

Post by Mistmaster »

Well, basically, Ra's al-Ghul thinks that Batman and Wayne actions are simply prolonging Gotham's agony; Ravenloft's Batman/Bruce Wayne could be really doing this, and his actions, at the end of the day, creates more suffering for his beloved city; That is a perfect curse, in my hopinion; no matter what, but good peoples keep dieyng by the hands of his enemies, crooks continue to make innocent suffering, and his worst enemy, the very one he killed in cold blood when he started his vigilante career (his damning act) , keeps returning.
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