Tsien Chiang redeemed?

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Jack the Reaper
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Tsien Chiang redeemed?

Post by Jack the Reaper »

It seems that Tsien Chiang, lord of I'Cath, is the most despised darklord in the fandom. She is just so over-the-edge brutal, sadistic, flat and boring. Palace from bones, carpets from hairs, painted in blood... yeah, sure. I don't remember ever seeing anyone writing something about her or using her in a campaign. Everyone just pretends she doesn't exist.

Do you think there might be some way to make her more interesting and useful? Maybe changing her background and domain somehow? Any ideas about some good use for her in Ravenloft? There is a place for some Chinese horror in the domains, isn't it?
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Re: Tsien Chiang redeemed?

Post by ewancummins »

Nothri is working on some I'Cath material.
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Re: Tsien Chiang redeemed?

Post by nothri »

As they say, speak and the devil shall appear.

I'm working on a full blown Gaz entry which, with any luck, I'll have ready by the next quoth the Raven. I get into more detail on that in the Netbook Projects forum.

To answer your question, Jack, yes I think there is a lot of untapped potential in Tsien. I think there is a little more support for her than it might seem, though. There's a certain fairy tale quality to her background that can be fun for some DMs. But there are certainly hindrances that most DMs perceive that keep her from being used in many campaigns.

1. Epic levels. Obviously, Tsien is a powerful and dangerous opponent that cannot be killed unless an elaborate series of events have taken place. In design she currently lends herself best to a weekend in hell game in which the goal is to destroy the darklord. But her level means that players will need to be similarly powerful to stand a chance, and the fact that her culture is so different from much of Ravenloft means most DMs will have a limited interest in her even if they have players that strong.

Rather than make Tsien less powerful, I'm working on giving the players more to do in I'Cath than what happens in the clearing at the domain's center. At the same time, I'm imposing a few factors that make Tsien slightly less lethal to visitors without changing her personality. The text mentions a few times that Tsien occasionally lets visitors live if they know the correct oath and provide gifts. I am expanding on that in the gazetteer.

2. Isolation- Again, I'Cath largely consists of shadowy forests and the groves, bells, and palace at the center. Somewhat limited in application at best, made no more appealing by a strong deviation from the usual culture of Ravenloft. As this is the only Chinese style domain in Ravenloft, this has long seemed a pity to me. As a solution, I've done several things. First, I've assumed that I'Cath HAD a decent population of normal humans when it entered Ravenloft. Said population, which is made up of four great clans that Tsien has skillfully placed each of her daughters in charge of by way of marriage and assassination, fled into the Mist the night the emperor died. As such, they have ended up as refugees and minority populations in a number of cities. There are Cathese towns all over the demiplane, but largest populations can be found in Nova Vaasa, Sri Raji, Al-Kathos, and Rokushima Taiyoo. Tradition demands that these populations bury their ancestors in their home villages, as well as conduct important festivals, marriages, and funerals at family shrines in those same villages. As such, while I'Cath has very few year round natives, it does sport a decent number of citizens who return for a few days, weeks or even months. To support this idea, I'Cath in the gazetteer with host several minor villages, manors, etc abandoned in the dark woods. For the same reason, at various times of year I'Cath will host one of four major two way mistways with excellent reliability. This serves her lost citizens in honoring their traditions, and helps Tsien send her spies and minions out into the demiplane.

3. No curse. While there are hints of a curse, Tsien has no established woes inflicted on her by the land. To combat this, my answer is that the land now reflects her views on the number 4. The symbolic meaning of the number plays out Astrologically, numerlogically, and divinationally according to Eastern symbolism. But Tsien has not entirely sussed out what those meanings are. As such, she doesn't know what taboos to avoid or rituals to carry out at key times of the year at key location within her domain. As the defacto emperor, this means there are consequences to her failures. These play out in the form of monsters and undead entities arising to haunt her or inflict harm upon the forest. Due to her connections to the wood, any such harm fills her with agony. Dispatching these monsters is easy...except they always return the next night. To eliminate them, Tsien must make restitution for her failures to fully comprehend the number 4. Alas, the reason the dead arise is always obscure and beyond Tsein's comprehension...although in hindsight she always feels the answer should have been obvious to one of her genius. Worse, the answers come easily to Nightingale, who inevitably must be consulted to end the matter. The reason for this is the most horrid truth Tsien could ever imagine- one she will never acknowledge. Her constant petition to the gods for the answer to the number 4 were answered long ago. Nightingale, her 4th daughter, was given a pure soul by Heaven, and acted in all ways as the perfect, humble embodiment of one who lives by Heaven's will and grace. Her every deed and action was imbued with Heaven's approval. She was a very model of the enlightenment Tsien sought, a kind hearted soul who would walk between the gates of life and death with ease and receive a high station of wisdom and power in every lifetime. What Tsien derided as weakness was precisely what she has longed to master, an inherent wisdom Nightingale strives ceaselessly to teach her mother that Tsien's pride and hatred make it impossible for her to even accept.
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Re: Tsien Chiang redeemed?

Post by Mistmaster »

Is it necessary that I'Cath must be so underpopulated, thought? I do like the role of Nightingale (it plays perfectly with my own Lightlord policy)
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Re: Tsien Chiang redeemed?

Post by nothri »

Mistmaster wrote:Is it necessary that I'Cath must be so underpopulated, thought? I do like the role of Nightingale (it plays perfectly with my own Lightlord policy)
Aside from wanting to keep as closely to the original concept for the domain as possible, I think the main advantage of keeping the Cathese population isolated in other realms is that it reflect the mass exodus taking place in real world China around the Victorian period. Since the Yellow Peril does play into some works of Gothic Horror, it feels appropriate to use that era as inspiration for the situation of the Cathese in Ravenloft. Also, Tsien's personality longs to either control or kill anything that interests her or that she deems to be a threat. Keeping the population beyond her ability to immediately and directly control or exterminate struck me as a very Dark Powers thing to do.
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Re: Tsien Chiang redeemed?

Post by GreenWood »

I have always thought that the lack of any real population was her curse. She wields immense power, but very seldom has a chance to use it. Isolation is her curse.
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Re: Tsien Chiang redeemed?

Post by brilliantlight »

GreenWood wrote:I have always thought that the lack of any real population was her curse. She wields immense power, but very seldom has a chance to use it. Isolation is her curse.
Possibly, but I like his version better. This is a much more workable domain IMO. I hope he finishes it for the next Quoth.
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Re: Tsien Chiang redeemed?

Post by The Lesser Evil »

The not having any subjects to exploit and abuse makes some sense, but Domains of Dread seems to indicate she hates visitors to her domain, so it's debatable if the limited population is an actual curse to her. (One might think she would enjoy subjugating and/or killing newcomers, but this doesn't necessarily appear to be the case.) On the other hand, Islands of Terror seems to indicate, although she does not fully understand its nature, she has an interest in conquering the Demiplane of Dread. The remote and isolated nature of I'Cath would certain put a damper on that.

There is some indication in Islands of Terror that Tsien Chiang implicitly fears the wrath of the gods, as she defied and offended them because she thought they hid secret knowledge of the number four from her. When the Mists were enveloping I'Cath, she believed the gods were responsible and were sending her to the Nine Hells. She puts up warding spells over her land every day, as she has "convinced herself" her magic keeps the gods' wrath at bay. Perhaps the reason why she hates newcomers to her realm is that she fears they may be agents of divine punishment?
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Re: Tsien Chiang redeemed?

Post by brilliantlight »

The Lesser Evil wrote:The not having any subjects to exploit and abuse makes some sense, but Domains of Dread seems to indicate she hates visitors to her domain, so it's debatable if the limited population is an actual curse to her. (One might think she would enjoy subjugating and/or killing newcomers, but this doesn't necessarily appear to be the case.) On the other hand, Islands of Terror seems to indicate, although she does not fully understand its nature, she has an interest in conquering the Demiplane of Dread. The remote and isolated nature of I'Cath would certain put a damper on that.

There is some indication in Islands of Terror that Tsien Chiang implicitly fears the wrath of the gods, as she defied and offended them because she thought they hid secret knowledge of the number four from her. When the Mists were enveloping I'Cath, she believed the gods were responsible and were sending her to the Nine Hells. She puts up warding spells over her land every day, as she has "convinced herself" her magic keeps the gods' wrath at bay. Perhaps the reason why she hates newcomers to her realm is that she fears they may be agents of divine punishment?
That could well be. In any case, I think a bigger domain would be better. As is there is little to do.
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Re: Tsien Chiang redeemed?

Post by nothri »

Interestingly, the living forgotten realms adventure Sign of Four gives a massive overestimate to the size of the realm at 20X40 miles...or 800 square miles. I'm planning to flub the numbers by saying that the local misty border (the Yunhai, or 'Sea of Clouds') is often in flux like the mists along the Darkonian border. That neatly solves the question of why the original map of I'Cath compared to the one in Domains of Dread appears to shift small details and lobs off the northern edge of the border. It also lets me essentially gives as much detail as I need to be satisfied with the article without violating any continuity. The domain is basically as large as it needs to be for the DM to do what he likes.
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Re: Tsien Chiang redeemed?

Post by Mistmaster »

I don't know, an underpopulated China-expy sounds a bit off target to me. Bit that's my personal taste.
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Re: Tsien Chiang redeemed?

Post by brilliantlight »

Mistmaster wrote:I don't know, an underpopulated China-expy sounds a bit off target to me. Bit that's my personal taste.
To the point of it being a contradiction in terms. China throughout most of history has been among the highest population, if not the highest population, country in the world.
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Re: Tsien Chiang redeemed?

Post by nothri »

But the majority of classic (and some modern) tales of the supernatural from China don't take place amidst the teeming masses of the city, but in the isolated villages and solitary monasteries of the country. I'd like I'Cath to be a domain where those classic tales of ghosts and demons and fox spirits can come to life. In addition, as was done to domains like Forlorn and the Nightmare Lands I want to improve upon what has already been established and add to it rather than reinvent everything from the ground up.
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Re: Tsien Chiang redeemed?

Post by Mistmaster »

To everyone it's own; I'm fond of reinventing from scratch but I understand other having other tastes.
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Re: Tsien Chiang redeemed?

Post by brilliantlight »

nothri wrote:But the majority of classic (and some modern) tales of the supernatural from China don't take place amidst the teeming masses of the city, but in the isolated villages and solitary monasteries of the country. I'd like I'Cath to be a domain where those classic tales of ghosts and demons and fox spirits can come to life. In addition, as was done to domains like Forlorn and the Nightmare Lands I want to improve upon what has already been established and add to it rather than reinvent everything from the ground up.
At the very least it needs some villages and cities. As is there is the DL herself and her daughters and a bunch of fiendish traps and nothing else IIRC.
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