Mapping Ravenloft [Split from: Drawing a Map]

[DeepShadow of FoS]

Can we have one without domain borders?

If we give it/part of it to the players, they should not always know the exact limits, or that they entered a new domain.

Joël

Have you seen maps of the 17th? They're far less accurate. I.e. you can't actually consider that such an accurate map exists ICly.

You can't? Why not?

[alhoon]

Well, because triangularization for mapping and Geodetic technics have not been discovered back then. The most advanced domains would have the sextant but that's it as far as it goes on "Where are we" and the ways to measure distance were also inaccurate.

The maps of 17th century were bad, the maps of 13th century were... are there any remaining? Anyway, every map I saw of the 17th century was flawed significantly.

Here is an example of a 17th century map of USA.

Perhaps smaller maps were more accurate, but I still doupt that the Barovians would have any skill in mapping, and good luck mapping Verbek, Sithicus, and other sparse hard-to-navigate domains.
In our cozy a-map-in-a-click era we forget how hard it was back then to get a good map.

NOTE: Of course, if a Demeldieuse arcanist wanted to use magical means to map the core, he could, but it would take years (or just higher level spells).

[DeepShadow of FoS]

Well, because triangularization for mapping and Geodetic technics have not been discovered back then. The most advanced domains would have the sextant but that's it as far as it goes on "Where are we" and the ways to measure distance were also inaccurate.

First, you are cherry picking your examples. What about the Piri Reis map? It's 16th century, yet quite accurate.

Second, you assume that Ravenloft technology must appear in the order it appeared in our world. Why?

Third, you fail to account for advantages that Ravenloft has over us. A simple Overland Flight spell would enhance mapmaking by several orders of magnitude. Combine it with a few common skills and CL7 equipment, and a 5th level character could hmake maps that were as accurate as anything pre-satellite.

[alhoon]

First, you are cherry picking your examples. What about the Piri Reis map? It's 16th century, yet quite accurate.

Actually, it's worse than my example. England doesn't look like that, nor is as big, Ireland doesn't look like that and most importantly (For a Greek) Greece doesn't look like that.

Second, you assume that Ravenloft technology must appear in the order it appeared in our world. Why?

Ehh... because that's what Cultural Level actually represent. No, you didn't have Geodecy and telemetrics in CL9 domains as you didn't have trains. If you want to push it forward to 1850 tech, that's your choice (and quite sensible actually).

Third, you fail to account for advantages that Ravenloft has over us. A simple Overland Flight spell would enhance mapmaking by several orders of magnitude. Combine it with a few common skills and CL7 equipment, and a 5th level character could hmake maps that were as accurate as anything pre-satellite.

Did I?

NOTE: Of course, if a Demeldieuse arcanist wanted to use magical means to map the core, he could, but it would take years (or just higher level spells).

And let's don't forget the most important spell in a mapper spellcaster's arsenal:
"Create map" which create an accurate (with 90+1d10% accuracy) map of an area of a square with side size of lvl x10 miles on a specially prepared scroll of dimensions at least 1' x 1'. Successive castings on bigger scrolls create a parchment map.

[Nathan of the FoS]

I side with alhoon on this one. That Piri Reis map, although impressive for the time, is hardly a satellite image; assuming development of technologies in the same sequence is a reasonable rule of thumb; cartography in Ravenloft is more dangerous than real-world cartography (itself no picnic in the 17th century); and Ravenloft generally (and certain locales specifically--say, Vechor) are mutable in a way the real world isn't. I would think that maps of Ravenloft wouldn't agree among themselves any more than, say, 17th century maps of real-world locales, at best. At worst, well, T and O map, anyone?

[DeepShadow of FoS]

Overland Flight + charts of certainty = the core is mapped in under a day.

[alhoon]

Good luck getting those maps though. The wizard(s) that did that, propably want them for themselves or sell them for extreme amounts of moneyzzz.

[DeepShadow of FoS]

Good luck getting those maps though. The wizard(s) that did that, propably want them for themselves or sell them for extreme amounts of moneyzzz.

Charts of Certainty aren't artifacts, or even minor artifacts. They are 11th caster level wondrous items, costing less than 50K. There are plenty of people who qualify for that in RL. Azalin already commissioned an artist to paint each DL's portrait (!), not to mention the Gaz's. Am I to believe that he wouldn't invest a hundredth the time and effort in getting something infinitely more practical?

How about Drakov? He knows the value of good maps for invading other lands. He's got the Radiant Tower working on magical weapons, scrying devices, and bracers. Are we saying he doesn't have an 11th level wizard who can do this?

How about the Churches of Ezra or Hala? They have casters of all levels and are trying to spread the word abroad.

How about Carlyle Trading Company, or the Boritsi Family? These are HUGE trading empires, with plenty of liquid cash and every reason to need good maps.

How about the Vistani? They may not need the maps themselves, but they know a good product when they see it, and once they have one, they can make as many as they need.

How about the Fraternity of Shadows? They have plenty of casters who qualify, AND they have all the need to do so. Mapping new domains is a huge part of what they do, AND they understand the need for updating. They'd want a fast method like this.

And once one of these does it, how easy is it to copy those maps again and again? A group like the Vistani could sell high-quality maps of a region for 500gp and recoup the investment in less than four months. After that, it's huge profits until the market saturates. Then there's another domain or another conjunction, and they do it again.

I think I'm going to write up a Vistani tribe that does this IMC. It's a perfect market for the conniving capitalist.

[alhoon]

11th lvl wizards aren't a dime a dozen you know. I doupt the Radiant tower has any wizard over 8th lvl. Hazlik's masterful apprentice is 8th lvl and she's considered high.

I doupt the Boritsi family will be willing to spread the maps out. Also, I doupt they actually look too hard into maps. They know their products can reach X and Y city and they don't care if the mountain on the way is there or 25km Northern.
PS. There are no "huge" trading empires in a land as big as Switzerland.

The FoS obviously has some good and nice maps. I doupt they'll be spreading them however, they hoard knowledge, they don't share.

The University of Dementlieu propably has a few good maps but I doupt there's any interest in most of the world to reproduce good maps. The same goes for the Vistani. A good product? Why would a map costing 1000gp = 20lbs of gold be useful to the average person they dance for? By PHB standards, a trained hireling (like a stonemason, blacksmith) etc makes 3sp/day = 9gp/month. So, with the price of map at "only" 180 gold you pay 5 trained laborers for 4 months.

And for those that want those maps, many of them don't want others to have those maps. I can easily picture Ivana Boritsi poisoning prospective mappers or closing the borders so that Drakov/Maloccio won't be able to get a good map of Borca. It's not that she lacks the necessary selfishness and cruelty to kill someone. She does it for fun after all, not just to stop people from gaining an advantage.
The same about Azalin. Although, in his case it's quite easier to wrap prospective mappers from doing a good job. And again, he's evil enough to do it in order to stop prospective enemies without caring how many he tramps under his boot.
Strahd on the other hand may take it personally if an interloper "breather scum" flies over Barovia and maps it as if it is said breather's backyard. Hazlin hates wizards so the flying wizard would end his days in a firestorm.

And more to the point, why would an adventurer pay 1000gp for a good map, when a crappy map or a list of directions works fine?
"The village of Frenitis? You follow the stream for 3-4 hours, till you reach a couple of large fig trees, one in each side of the river. The left side one leans towards the river as if it is about to topple. There, you turn towards the direction of the setting sun and you follow a small trail for 2-3 hours. Alongside that trail you would see many red mushrooms, which they're safe to eat but they taste bad so you know you're on the right trail. Once you reach an Oak burned by lighting on a small hill, check to your left. You would see Frenitis in the distance. If you reach the Inn "dancing bear" you've been too far and you need to backtrack."

[Nathan of the FoS]

I guess it depends (as alhoon pointed out) on what your assumptions are about the presence of 11th level casters and the market for maps. To say "less than 50k gold" also does tend to obscure the fact that, in (very, very rough) real-world terms, that makes your map worth something like a ship of the line (HMS Victory built in 1763 for 63,000 pounds sterling).

My baseline assumption is that Ravenloft resents being mapped and won't sit still for it, but your mileage may (literally) vary on this point.

(It's also a good example of mago-technology making real-world tech-level assumptions go seriously sideways...why not have elementals providing the power for trains, lifting zeppelins, etc.? It would be awesome in so many ways to have a bottle universe where D&D spells functioned, let 'em rip for a few hundred years, and see what kinds of things people did with them along those lines, especially for transport and manufacture.)

[alhoon]

(It's also a good example of mago-technology making real-world tech-level assumptions go seriously sideways...why not have elementals providing the power for trains, lifting zeppelins, etc.? It would be awesome in so many ways to have a bottle universe where D&D spells functioned, let 'em rip for a few hundred years, and see what kinds of things people did with them along those lines, especially for transport and manufacture.)

Wasn't that the subject of the past QtR? And Azalin has a fire elemental working as ... a fire in a forge.

Nathan: 50K? What do you mean?
Nobody in their right mind would pay 1000lbs of gold for a good map. And in my game at least, if you were willing to pay as much as 5000 for a good map of the Core, you would get it. Because 5000 is too much.
50000 gold pieces are (taking into account gaps in the coins) about 1,25 - 1,3 cubic feet of coins. That's a good sized chest filled with gold coins, like the pirate movies ones. Enough money to give decent equipment to 1000 soldiers.
50000 gp is what you get with a wish spell. No, really. Check the PHB. A -wish- spell. If you're willing to go to such lenghts, then yes, you would get a freaking map. You spend 10000 to find an 18th lvl wizard (Azalin comes to mind) and you give him 40000 to cast a wish for you. Or an item worth 32000 Like a Keen, undead bane scimitar+1.
Of course, if the wizard is living and you tell him you want to do that trade for a map of the core, said wizard could well die from laughter.

[DeepShadow of FoS]

11th lvl wizards aren't a dime a dozen you know. I doupt the Radiant tower has any wizard over 8th lvl. Hazlik's masterful apprentice is 8th lvl and she's considered high.

Is she his highest-level apprentice? I doubt it.

I doupt the Boritsi family will be willing to spread the maps out.

Why not?! They buy a 500gp copy from one of my Vistani, and mass-produce 5gp copies from that. They get a product that's in demand AND they supply their own people with good maps.

Also, I doupt they actually look too hard into maps. They know their products can reach X and Y city and they don't care if the mountain on the way is there or 25km Northern.

Okay, so now you're arguing that there's no demand?

PS. There are no "huge" trading empires in a land as big as Switzerland.

Right, just like there are no opera houses in a city with 5000 people. Canon says the Boritsi are a huge trading empire, despite the size. Reconcile it however you want; they can drop 50K on maps if there's a need. If you want to make the argument that they don't need accurate maps...be my guest.

The FoS obviously has some good and nice maps. I doupt they'll be spreading them however, they hoard knowledge, they don't share.

Not willingly, of course. Hey, wasn't there a bunch of stuff stolen from their vaults a while back?

The University of Dementlieu propably has a few good maps but I doupt there's any interest in most of the world to reproduce good maps.

I honestly can't believe you are making that argument.

The same goes for the Vistani. A good product? Why would a map costing 1000gp = 20lbs of gold be useful to the average person they dance for?

They wouldn't. However, the Vistani are infamous for finding the right market for a product. Considering Vlad Drakov's need to patrol his borders, they could recoup the loss in Falkovnia alone. A super-detailed map of the Forest of Shadows ought to be high priority for any Falkovnian commander.

By PHB standards, a trained hireling (like a stonemason, blacksmith) etc makes 3sp/day = 9gp/month. So, with the price of map at "only" 180 gold you pay 5 trained laborers for 4 months.

Yes, I'm aware of the bad economics of the Core rules. At 500 gp, you could trade it for a measly +1 dagger and get enough change to pay that laborer for several years. The regular budget available to a DL, head of state or religious leader are substantially more than 50K. The regular budget available to a Talon, mayor, or bandit leader is substantially more than a +1 dagger.

And for those that want those maps, many of them don't want others to have those maps. I can easily picture Ivana Boritsi poisoning prospective mappers or closing the borders so that Drakov/Maloccio won't be able to get a good map of Borca. It's not that she lacks the necessary selfishness and cruelty to kill someone. She does it for fun after all, not just to stop people from gaining an advantage.

And these mapmakers don't have their own resources, patrons, etc? To stop my mapmaking scenario, Ivana would have to close the borders within a random 30-minute flight through Borca in order to get the mapmaker.

The same about Azalin. Although, in his case it's quite easier to wrap prospective mappers from doing a good job. And again, he's evil enough to do it in order to stop prospective enemies without caring how many he tramps under his boot.
Strahd on the other hand may take it personally if an interloper "breather scum" flies over Barovia and maps it as if it is said breather's backyard. Hazlin hates wizards so the flying wizard would end his days in a firestorm.

And when any of them wants maps, they support their mapmaker against these problems. Your insistence that the mapmaker have no powerful patrons is a straw-man argument.

And more to the point, why would an adventurer pay 1000gp for a good map, when a crappy map or a list of directions works fine?

Another straw man, and more of the "maps aren't useful" fallacy. Okay, Alhoon: who in RL WOULD use a detailed map?

[DeepShadow of FoS]

I guess it depends (as alhoon pointed out) on what your assumptions are about the presence of 11th level casters and the market for maps. To say "less than 50k gold" also does tend to obscure the fact that, in (very, very rough) real-world terms, that makes your map worth something like a ship of the line (HMS Victory built in 1763 for 63,000 pounds sterling).

But this is the economics of the Core rules. Why is a +1 dagger worth more than a half-dozen war horses? Why is an everburning torch worth more than a horse and cart?

Charts of Certainty would be worth about as much as many, many other magic items people in RL are carrying around.

My baseline assumption is that Ravenloft resents being mapped and won't sit still for it, but your mileage may (literally) vary on this point.

This is exactly why my Vistani are still in business: there's a constantly renewing demand.

(It's also a good example of mago-technology making real-world tech-level assumptions go seriously sideways...why not have elementals providing the power for trains, lifting zeppelins, etc.? It would be awesome in so many ways to have a bottle universe where D&D spells functioned, let 'em rip for a few hundred years, and see what kinds of things people did with them along those lines, especially for transport and manufacture.)

Yeah, this is the kind of crap that bothers me. Apart from the populations vs. the scale, the entire system revolves around people not taking full advantage of their abilities.

[DeepShadow of FoS]

Nobody in their right mind would pay 1000lbs of gold for a good map. And in my game at least, if you were willing to pay as much as 5000 for a good map of the Core, you would get it. Because 5000 is too much.

And yet several canon characters have spent 16,000 gp on a cloak. Why is that any less absurd?

50000 gold pieces are (taking into account gaps in the coins) about 1,25 - 1,3 cubic feet of coins. That's a good sized chest filled with gold coins, like the pirate movies ones. Enough money to give decent equipment to 1000 soldiers.

Yes, and a Cloak of Charisma would fall into the same category. More of the absurd economics that don't prove anything.

It doesn't need to be in gold, you know. If its the volume of gold you are balking at, half a dozen gemstones, a deed to land, or a pair of enchanted weapons would be the same price.

50000 gp is what you get with a wish spell. No, really. Check the PHB. A -wish- spell. If you're willing to go to such lenghts, then yes, you would get a freaking map. You spend 10000 to find an 18th lvl wizard (Azalin comes to mind) and you give him 40000 to cast a wish for you. Or an item worth 32000 Like a Keen, undead bane scimitar+1.

Or you play an 11th level wizard and spend half that making it yourself.

Or you can get a high-quality non-magical version two generations removed (i.e. copied) for 50 gp. That's as much as two flasks of holy water--easy investment for the adventuring party.

[Zilfer]

I can tell you my party would probably pay for a map of Barovia right now, they have a bunch of gold from the original I6 adventure, but mostly nothing to spend it on since the only shop is run by someone who is upping the prices of everything from 100% to 1000%. XD

Baldgrif I believe his name was.... "Supply and demand, my friends."