An Idea: Mother Night and The Raven Queen

Discussing all things Ravenloft
Post Reply
User avatar
Ender
Evil Genius
Evil Genius
Posts: 300
Joined: Mon Jun 16, 2014 8:49 am

An Idea: Mother Night and The Raven Queen

Post by Ender »

One of the things I liked about Curse of Strahd was the new deity, Mother Night. She's the antithesis of the Morninglord, in a sense, drawing power from dusk to dawn. Many of the inhabitants of Barovia feel she sent Strahd as a curse on Barovia for some perceived past crimes or transgressions. Despite being worshipped by a number of evil creatures, there's nothing inherently evil about Mother Night herself as detailed in the adventure. She's not really given a fully detailed philosophy.

Having never played 4E, I was only mildly aware of the Raven Queen, a deity that was created for that edition. From my recent readings and understanding of her, she is a deity associated with death and darkness, but is inherently neutral, representing fate and destiny as opposed to destruction and decay. What if Mother Night has another name... The Raven Queen? Many could worship her, believing her to be a perverse goddess of horrid, unnatural things, but others have a tamer view of her, seeing her as a cold and distant guiding hand. This could be particularly interesting if we tie her to Barovia's own history as Strahd's mother was Queen Ravenovia (or Ravenia, depending on the source). Was she the first to worship Mother Night? Did she, in death, become The Raven Queen? Perhaps she watches over Barovia, and her son, to this day...

The 4E Dungeon Magazine adventure Fair Barovia paints Ravenia as a worshipper of the Morninglord. If using her as Mother Night / The Raven Queen, I would disregard that. Perhaps Barov was the follower of the Morninglord (or Andral). Barov and Ravenia, then, might represent two sides of the same coin, day and night. What of the Holy Symbol of Ravenkind, then? Perhaps it becomes a dual-natured symbol, representing the union of the two religions. I would engrave a dark image of a raven in flight on the reverse side of the pendant to signify this.

I'll leave you with a strange thought: what if Barov and Ravenia were the original Dark Powers? Who better to punish Strahd than his own parents?
User avatar
Gonzoron of the FoS
Evil Genius
Evil Genius
Posts: 7555
Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2003 8:02 pm
Gender: Male
Location: New Jersey
Contact:

Re: An Idea: Mother Night and The Raven Queen

Post by Gonzoron of the FoS »

Knowing little to nothing about the Raven Queen, and not having gotten to the Mother Night portion of CoS yet, and also not having gotten around to reading Fair Barovia yet... (gasp!) ... I like it! :) But given those caveats, my opinion might not mean much.
Ender wrote:The 4E Dungeon Magazine adventure Fair Barovia paints Ravenia as a worshipper of the Morninglord. If using her as Mother Night / The Raven Queen, I would disregard that.
You might not have to. Maybe she grows so fervent in her love of the Morninglord that she somehow gives herself to him in some sort of ritual (neglecting that she's already wed to Barov) and becomes cursed to be his "Queen", but never able to remain with him, as the day never coexists with the night. Sounds like an appropriately mythic origin story for a goddess.
I'll leave you with a strange thought: what if Barov and Ravenia were the original Dark Powers? Who better to punish Strahd than his own parents?
Cute! I don't think that I've heard that idea before, but it fits! "Strahd! Go to your room! .. er.. domain! and don't come out until you're ready to say 'sorry' to your brother!" ;)
"We're realistic heroes. We're not here to save the world, just nudge the world into a better place."
User avatar
thekristhomas
Evil Genius
Evil Genius
Posts: 772
Joined: Mon Jun 29, 2015 4:33 pm

Re: An Idea: Mother Night and The Raven Queen

Post by thekristhomas »

Reading this set something off in my head, (that I thought I'd posted last night, damn you Morpheus)

OK you know how in some religions (particularly state religions) the monarch is the representative of god on earth, in a ritual sense? What if in the state religion of Olde Barovia, the king (Barov) represented Father Day (Lath'Andral, Lord of the Morning) and the queen (Ravenia) represented Mother Night (Death, the Queen of Ravens). Kingship, and the right to rule, required that an heir must take a queen, for the balance between night and day to be maintained (the dual thrones in Castle Ravenloft suggest, to me, some form of dual monarchy).

Strahd then, by refusing to take a bride, was also refusing the crown, and this might well have been the point. Strahd was and is known for his lusty nature, it seems unlikely to me that given this nature that Tatyana was the first girl to turn his head, he could have taken a wife years before. But if he believed he was too war stained to represent Andral, the bright one, he might have stood aside from his birthright, even though it might sting.

But when he saw Tatyana, that sting turned into an idea. Her hair was the brightest red, red, the holiest of colours for Andral, and her smile lit up like the dawn, this girl could represent Andral and he could represent the Raven Queen, an inversion of the roles, but balance would be maintained. This mad idea, fed by his conflicted desire to have his birthright and the spoils of his victory versus his war weary soul just wanting to rest, led to him seeking to make an heretical deal with Mother Night, Death...

The trauma experienced by the remainder of the state religion after the wedding and the slaughter of it's leadership in attendance led to a schism in the church, with the Ravenkin rejecting Mother Night as the cause of this calamity, which in itself was a seismic event, as the Ravenkin believed the Raven Queen to be their creator, and worshiping only Andral. Years from this point, it will have been forgotten/redacted that Mother Night was ever a part of the state religion (despite the constant appearance of the raven in the iconography) so when discussing Queen Ravenia's piety it will be assumed that she worshipped the Morninglord.

Meanwhile the remainder of the faithful are led by the bastard daughter of King Barov, Eva Zarovan, as the only female of royal blood, she attempts to fulfill the ritual duties of the Queen, attempting to appease Mother Night, through rituals, through her teachings of "dark neutrality" to those few families who become known as the Vistani, and through her fulfillment of the most important of the duties of the queen, she acts as the Oracle of the Raven Queen, for are not Fate and Death one and the same?
User avatar
Deewun
Evil Genius
Evil Genius
Posts: 282
Joined: Sat Sep 09, 2006 1:06 pm
Location: GA
Contact:

Re: An Idea: Mother Night and The Raven Queen

Post by Deewun »

I've been doing a lot of reading and working on the gods in Ravenloft and the religions and such, and I really like all of this. The Raven Queen was a great addition to 4e, and is super flavorful, and I like your use here. Simple, easy to understand, with a lot of depth for potential plottings and such in the future for DMs.

I dig it.
User avatar
thekristhomas
Evil Genius
Evil Genius
Posts: 772
Joined: Mon Jun 29, 2015 4:33 pm

Re: An Idea: Mother Night and The Raven Queen

Post by thekristhomas »

Another pointer to the duailty sun/raven is the pair of holy items, the Holy Symbol of Ravenkind (sun shaped), and the Holy Icon of Ravenloft (raven shaped), both created by the Church, both interestingly, from a theological standpoint, of particular use against vampires, which might suggest that in the olde faith vampires were seen as a great bane or anathema
User avatar
Ender
Evil Genius
Evil Genius
Posts: 300
Joined: Mon Jun 16, 2014 8:49 am

Re: An Idea: Mother Night and The Raven Queen

Post by Ender »

Random thought I had yesterday: vampires can't go out in the sunlight, which is the Morninglord's domain, but are perfectly fine at night, which is Mother Night's domain. If these deities are somehow tied to Strahd's parents, that would make for an interesting meta-comment in his relationship with them. King Barov would always have been the stern punisher, rebuking Strahd for not following the "right path", while Queen Ravenia was the mother that always forgave him and cared for him even when upset. Mother Night acts as the gentle respite from the Morninglord's anger. Maybe Sergei was always Barov's favorite, because he followed the same religion. Meanwhile, Queen Ravenia still loves Strahd, providing him with a sanctuary, but ultimately, she wants him to find eternal rest (as the Raven Queen wants of all undead), but he would need to die for that.

In this way, his parents aren't directly equated to the Dark Powers, but have some level of influence over the world. It's similar to how Ezra is viewed by some of the sects, having joined with the Mists, but not originally having been of them.
User avatar
Gonzoron of the FoS
Evil Genius
Evil Genius
Posts: 7555
Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2003 8:02 pm
Gender: Male
Location: New Jersey
Contact:

Re: An Idea: Mother Night and The Raven Queen

Post by Gonzoron of the FoS »

Not much to add, but I do love that take on things! Well done!
"We're realistic heroes. We're not here to save the world, just nudge the world into a better place."
User avatar
The Lesser Evil
Evil Genius
Evil Genius
Posts: 1544
Joined: Sat Apr 03, 2004 3:17 am

Re: An Idea: Mother Night and The Raven Queen

Post by The Lesser Evil »

Regarding the Morninglord/Mother Night split, I think it kinda makes more sense to make it Ravenia/Baba Lysaga more than Barov/Ravenia. Barov was a scumbag, if you look at what he did with the dusk elves under Rahadin's entry. (The dusk elf displacement/genocide didn't start with Strahd...)

And under Baba Lysaga's write up. you'll find she was both a devotee to Mother Night and the midwife who was there for Strahd's birth. Lysaga had a dark and unnatural attachment to young Strahd, planting the capacity for dark sorcery inside of him prior to Ravenia/Ravenovia's exiling of her. From the fringes, Baba Lysaga petitioned Mother Night ceaselessly to afflict Ravenia with disease, which was finally granted with Ravenia's death. Since then, altlhough she's never had the nerve to get close, Baba Lysaga's served Strahd from the shadows in his undeath just as Ravenia raised him in life.
Mistmaster
Evil Genius
Evil Genius
Posts: 1139
Joined: Fri Feb 19, 2016 5:27 pm

Re: An Idea: Mother Night and The Raven Queen

Post by Mistmaster »

We do not know exactly what happened beetwen Barov and the Dusk Elves; Maybe theyr displacemernt (not theyr genocide, of course, but that happened under Strahd) was theyr fault as they betrayed Barov. (I like the Barov/Ravenia dualism)
User avatar
The Lesser Evil
Evil Genius
Evil Genius
Posts: 1544
Joined: Sat Apr 03, 2004 3:17 am

Re: An Idea: Mother Night and The Raven Queen

Post by The Lesser Evil »

Mistmaster wrote:We do not know exactly what happened beetwen Barov and the Dusk Elves; Maybe theyr displacemernt (not theyr genocide, of course, but that happened under Strahd) was theyr fault as they betrayed Barov.
Would you source these claims please? The passage that I find seems to indicate differently (Curse of Strahd p. 236, under Rahadin's description):

Rahadin was exiled for refusing to bow down to a dusk elf prince whom he considered weak and corrupt. When the dusk elves later declined to pay fealty to King Barov, Rahadin helped Barov conquer them. The elf kingdom's royal line was obliterated, the dusk elves hunted like rabbits. The few that survived were either subjugated or forced to live among the Vistani. So pleased was Barov with Rahadin that the king made the dusk elf an honorary member of his family.


My interpretation is that Barov attempted to bully the dusk elves into submission but when they refused, Barov not only violently subjugated them but also needlessly massacred many of them. That seems to go beyond "displacement" and more towards "genocide". Likewise, I don't see any firm evidence of a betrayal, other than Rahadin's defection to the Von Zaroviches. If you can cite some other passage that can give more insight into your thought process, please do. (If what you're saying is your own take or homebrew on it, that's fine, but we should differentiate that from what's in print, which I was referencing)
(I like the Barov/Ravenia dualism)
That's fine; I'm not trying to tell anybody what they should or shouldn't do, only offer an alternative perspective, given some details that might've been missed.
User avatar
Ender
Evil Genius
Evil Genius
Posts: 300
Joined: Mon Jun 16, 2014 8:49 am

Re: An Idea: Mother Night and The Raven Queen

Post by Ender »

The Lesser Evil wrote:The passage that I find seems to indicate differently (Curse of Strahd p. 236, under Rahadin's description):

Rahadin was exiled for refusing to bow down to a dusk elf prince whom he considered weak and corrupt. When the dusk elves later declined to pay fealty to King Barov, Rahadin helped Barov conquer them. The elf kingdom's royal line was obliterated, the dusk elves hunted like rabbits. The few that survived were either subjugated or forced to live among the Vistani. So pleased was Barov with Rahadin that the king made the dusk elf an honorary member of his family.


My interpretation is that Barov attempted to bully the dusk elves into submission but when they refused, Barov not only violently subjugated them but also needlessly massacred many of them. That seems to go beyond "displacement" and more towards "genocide". Likewise, I don't see any firm evidence of a betrayal, other than Rahadin's defection to the Von Zaroviches. If you can cite some other passage that can give more insight into your thought process, please do. (If what you're saying is your own take or homebrew on it, that's fine, but we should differentiate that from what's in print, which I was referencing)
Hm... I'd overlooked that bit about Barov or had perhaps assumed it was Strahd when I first read it. I'm inclined simply to change that to make sure it's Strahd that did this. It's one of those instances where I feel the module fails to properly depict Strahd as a villain, leaving it up to the players to find some motivation.
The Lesser Evil wrote:Regarding the Morninglord/Mother Night split, I think it kinda makes more sense to make it Ravenia/Baba Lysaga more than Barov/Ravenia. Barov was a scumbag, if you look at what he did with the dusk elves under Rahadin's entry. (The dusk elf displacement/genocide didn't start with Strahd...)

And under Baba Lysaga's write up. you'll find she was both a devotee to Mother Night and the midwife who was there for Strahd's birth. Lysaga had a dark and unnatural attachment to young Strahd, planting the capacity for dark sorcery inside of him prior to Ravenia/Ravenovia's exiling of her. From the fringes, Baba Lysaga petitioned Mother Night ceaselessly to afflict Ravenia with disease, which was finally granted with Ravenia's death. Since then, altlhough she's never had the nerve to get close, Baba Lysaga's served Strahd from the shadows in his undeath just as Ravenia raised him in life.
I wouldn't have Lysaga be Mother Night specifically because she worshipped her. I know what you're thinking, though: but if Ravenia worshipped Mother Night, why is that so different? Well, I'd argue that Ravenia dying because of Lysaga praying to Mother Night, and then becoming Mother Night in death, is just an irony I would be remiss to ignore. You know, a "If you strike me down I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine" moment. Lysaga kills Mother Night's most faithful servant, only to have that servant become the very avatar of fate and death. For added bonus, I'd probably have had Lysaga be human at the time and have been cursed to become a hag by the Raven Queen once she ascended, forcing her to prolong her life by performing rituals and praying to Mother Night, now knowing that the blessings of the one woman she hated above all else are the only things keeping her alive anymore.
Post Reply