Alternative Vistani Interpretations?

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Re: Alternative Vistani Interpretations?

Post by alhoon »

ewancummins wrote:I like them essentially as presented. "Old movie gypsies" is a fun, fitting trope for Ravenloft.
The VR Guide is nice.

I don't do political correctness---certainly not in gaming.
That being said, I can see how some European players might be reminded of real world anti-Roma prejudice (It's just not a significant social issue in my country ). DMs should handle all that as they see fit. Trust your own judgement about what works for you and your players, I say.

The Vistani are based on a romantic portrayal of 'gypsies' from film and literature that really isn't close to RW ethnic groups. Barovians aren't Vlachs or Romanians, either. It's not as if "superstitious vaguely SE or Central European villagers" isn't a stereotype. I'm not in love with the Kingfuhrer 3E Falkovnia, though it's certainly well-written, but I wouldn't hesitate to use it for fear of offending players. What else? I suppose references to slavery and a Voodoo-styled fantasy tradition in Sourange might offend some people. Not me.

YMMV
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I love my vistani as the horror movie strange ones. The DMs that have players taking offense, from real world horrific events, it should be addressed as we play to have fun. Personally I'm against safe-space gaming and I haven't seen many players that mind. D&D has a lot of "mamsel in distress" tropes which are fine by the few women that enjoy the hobby that I know. I've heard more men complaining about it than women.
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Re: Alternative Vistani Interpretations?

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ewancummins wrote:I like them essentially as presented. "Old movie gypsies" is a fun, fitting trope for Ravenloft.
The VR Guide is nice.

I don't do political correctness---certainly not in gaming.
That being said, I can see how some European players might be reminded of real world anti-Roma prejudice (It's just not a significant social issue in my country ). DMs should handle all that as they see fit. Trust your own judgement about what works for you and your players, I say.

The Vistani are based on a romantic portrayal of 'gypsies' from film and literature that really isn't close to RW ethnic groups. Barovians aren't Vlachs or Romanians, either. It's not as if "superstitious vaguely SE or Central European villagers" isn't a stereotype. I'm not in love with the Kingfuhrer 3E Falkovnia, though it's certainly well-written, but I wouldn't hesitate to use it for fear of offending players. What else? I suppose references to slavery and a Voodoo-styled fantasy tradition in Sourange might offend some people. Not me.

YMMV
I think the difference is that the Visani (and the Voodan) represents a modern minority group that suffer from ethnic and racial stereotypes imposed upon them by outside society. The Vistani are also very characterized with common characteristics and broken apart from other human cultures in many ways that Barovian etc. are not. They may not bother you or I because we might not come from a context to be personally affected by them.

I don't see making an argument about "political correctness" as particularly helpful or valid, as it has become mostly a loaded buzzword. Everything's all on a continuum. As an example, I doubt you would support a strength penalty for female characters. Instead of this rhetoric, I would like to ask you about what you feel makes the contribution of the Vistani unique (see my question for Alhoon below).
alhoon wrote:
Why write a post when Ewan did it for me? What Ewan said.

I love my vistani as the horror movie strange ones. The DMs that have players taking offense, from real world horrific events, it should be addressed as we play to have fun. Personally I'm against safe-space gaming and I haven't seen many players that mind. D&D has a lot of "mamsel in distress" tropes which are fine by the few women that enjoy the hobby that I know. I've heard more men complaining about it than women.
I think that's what is being done here, people looking for alternative interpretations. Nobody is demanding that you change. Beyond that, a single person's anecdotal evidence isn't better than that of anybody else.

If I may engage you in a conversation where we might all have something meaningful to talk about, what about the Vistani as is do you feel like needs to be there? What is special about how they function that couldn't be captured with them changed? What makes their archetype vital?
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Re: Alternative Vistani Interpretations?

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What I do:

1) I don't buy products that seem to have been written/edited/altered in a new version to suit a political (real world) narrative with which I disagree.

2) I do make whatever changes I'd like to my own games.

RE Strength penalty: Actually, that's not a bad idea. The question is, what balances it? Games like D&D have game balance. Perhaps a boost related to the superior aspects of social intelligence and empathy that women on average show versus men on average? Something related to other sex differences?



AD&D 1E includes a rule about limits on exceptional STR for females. It is quite reasonable in that it tends to line up with real world records of outstanding strength.
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Re: Alternative Vistani Interpretations?

Post by ewancummins »

RE the question about the Vistani:

1) I like that they fit the romantic literary/B&W horror movie tropes about gypsies so well. This is a huge plus. Ravenloft has its versions of the Wolfman, Dracula, Frankenstein's Monster--- it needs gypsies to feel complete. And the familiar horror element helps many players buy in to Ravenloft as a D&D fantasy mélange combined with Gothic Horror.

2) Gypsies (not yet called Vistani) show up in the first module, Ravenloft, with cartomancy and covered wagons and all that jazz. They are a well-established part of published Ravenloft. I like the sense of continuity and persistence in the game-world that helps to establish.

3) The Vistani can serve several roles in a campaign: minions for a bad guy, helpful travelers, a source of curses or information, a way into Ravenloft, a way to other domains, etc. They are very flexible.

4) Vistani being special NPC types works very well with the game-mechanical limitations on magical divination in Ravenloft, and gives the DM control of this stuff in a way and to the degree needed for the game to work as I like it to work.

5) The Vistani retain an air of mystery because they are essentially an NPC race. Human, yet strange. This seems like a good story element to me.


--But again, all that aside, I encourage fellow DMs to develop their own material that suits their needs and the needs of their players.
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Re: Alternative Vistani Interpretations?

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Hell_Born wrote:The Vistani are one of Ravenloft's oldest iconic races, but it has to be admitted that there are certain... issues... with the race. Although certainly far better handled than the Aperusa of Spelljammer (who start with "gypsies in space!" and add misogyny, cowardice, thievery, heresy and human trafficking to the mix), it hasn't gone unnoticed in modern eras that they're rather... politically incorrect. I know for a fact that I saw a post here from a European user stating that their group had a very strong negative reaction to the Vistani due to the real-world issues of anti-Roma prejudice and the obvious comparisons between Vistani and Romani.

Plus... let's face it, beyond the "creepy gypsy mystic out of Hammer Horror Films", the big role of the Vistani is that they're supposed to be living deus ex machinas and plot engines for Ravenloft DMs. Need somebody to show up and give essential clues to your boneheaded party? Vistani ahoy! Need somebody to curse someone, fairly or not, to produce a monster for your latest adventure? Vistani did it! That might be fine with some DMs, but others don't necessarily like that role. I mean, let's face it, this kind of makes Vistani into an entire species of Elminsters.

So, I was curious; have any Ravenloft DMs out there ever altered or tweaked the Vistani? If you have, what did you do, and why?

For myself... well, honestly, I don't like the "living plot hook" aspect of canon Vistani or the hamhanded mystification they get, so, I counter that.

My Vistani are still technically ordinary humans - it's just that their culture is alien, they have strong inherent magical talents (respected traditions analoguous to wizards and bards, very high propensity towards sorcerers, many Ritual Caster equivalents), and they have access to a lot of knowledge about the inner workings of the demiplane. They don't know everything, but they do know enough to give them edges and abilities that the common folk lack, and they play up on what they have because that bunkum is a source of defense against the prejudices of other cultures.

5th edition has actually strengthened my preference for this take on Vistani, because 5e's Curse of Strahd not only gave us a full-fledged Vistani that actually looked pretty playable in its own right, but a new wrinkle in their lore - that they have passage through the mists because of their connection to Strahd and his curse, not because they're somehow stronger than the Dark Powers or anything like that.

Incidentally, I really don't like the Half-Vistani race; even beyond the unfortunate "the Vistani aren't human!" implications, there's the simple fact it's essentially the Ravenloft Half-Orc in terms of limited background - really, have you ever seen a Half-Vistani who's origins didn't involve either the Vistani father seducing & then abandoning the human mother, the mother being raped by the father, or the Vistani mother having the child from a one-night stand and then abandoning it with its human father?

Something that I've actually just thought of doing is reworking the Vistani by making them halflings as a base-race rather than humans. No, wait, hear me out: halflings do have at least one edition's of lore as nomadic caravan travelers, and that combination of lifestyle and physical ineptitude would work well as a justification for both pursuing mysticism and going out of their way to make others afraid of their powers. Plus, that diminutive stature makes them more exotic and alien, which adds a reason why the humans are so unnerved by them. I don't know, I just think that mixing this with my aforementioned take on Vistani could make for something really distinctive, but which could also be fully playable.

I addressed all your other concerns and questions upthread, I think. But about the Halfling-Vistani--they sound fun. Go for it. :)

It's not how I would do it, but that's why I like to read these sorts of threads by other DMs on FoS. It's cool to check out different ways to use and develop the same baseline setting.

My mechanics suggestion is to apply the standard limitations on divination for any Vistani seers. Giving spellcasters for a player race access to full divinatory abilities may mess up any mysteries you set up in play.

I like the bit about bunkum.
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Re: Alternative Vistani Interpretations?

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The Lesser Evil wrote: As an example, I doubt you would support a strength penalty for female characters.
Well, I do. If a player insists in getting a female fighter with 18 strength, so be it, we play for fun not semantics, but none of the women human NPCs will have as great strength. And none of the drow men will have as great strength as female drow, which are portrayed as stronger than males... in some old book and I like it.

The Lesser Evil wrote: If I may engage you in a conversation where we might all have something meaningful to talk about, what about the Vistani as is do you feel like needs to be there? What is special about how they function that couldn't be captured with them changed? What makes their archetype vital?
Their mysteriousness combined with, frankly, the gypsy cultural tropes as seen in the movies.
I don't play vistani as marginalized, unhygienic, nomadic thieves and frankly, I don't see that in the books. I play them as mysterious humans that dress, speak, dance and live similar to the gypsies of Romania with a unique connection to the Mists and bizarre unexplained powers with fate, from being good at divination, to being good at laying curses.
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Re: Alternative Vistani Interpretations?

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alhoon wrote:
The Lesser Evil wrote: As an example, I doubt you would support a strength penalty for female characters.
Well, I do. If a player insists in getting a female fighter with 18 strength, so be it, we play for fun not semantics, but none of the women human NPCs will have as great strength. And none of the drow men will have as great strength as female drow, which are portrayed as stronger than males... in some old book and I like it.

The Lesser Evil wrote: If I may engage you in a conversation where we might all have something meaningful to talk about, what about the Vistani as is do you feel like needs to be there? What is special about how they function that couldn't be captured with them changed? What makes their archetype vital?
Their mysteriousness combined with, frankly, the gypsy cultural tropes as seen in the movies.
I don't play vistani as marginalized, unhygienic, nomadic thieves and frankly, I don't see that in the books. I play them as mysterious humans that dress, speak, dance and live similar to the gypsies of Romania with a unique connection to the Mists and bizarre unexplained powers with fate, from being good at divination, to being good at laying curses.

Yes, I rarely place or assign high STR scores to female NPCs.

If you look back at my games, you will see the great majority of NPC fighter types have been male. Warrior women exist, but they are rather unusual. More common than in most historical societies, yes, but not more common than in American or British fantasy literature written before the 1990s.(Bit of a guess on that last part, as I haven't read an awful lot of the newer stuff.)


RE Drow dimorphism

I like that. It makes sense that the females are actually larger and stronger, because the difference complements the matriarchal social structure. I seem to recall females have a higher level limit as clerics, and males had a higher level limit as magic-users, in 1E rules.
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Re: Alternative Vistani Interpretations?

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ewancummins wrote: If you look back at my games, you will see the great majority of NPC fighter types have been male. Warrior women exist, but they are rather unusual. More common than in most historical societies, yes, but not more common than in American or British fantasy literature written before the 1990s.(Bit of a guess on that last part, as I haven't read an awful lot of the newer stuff.)
I don't think there were warrior women in historical societies with a few notable individual exceptions (Joan D'Arc and a few pirate women). To put simply, before 20th century the idea of a warrior woman was unlady-like I think. Women were conditioned to think their place was in the kitchen.

DROW: Yes, I think Drow women had higher level cap as clerics and men as mages too.
As for females being stronger, here's Wikipedia confirming it.
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Re: Alternative Vistani Interpretations?

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There were warrior women in ancient Rome. Not soldiers, gladiatrixes. Also in ancient Greece. Google Atalanta.
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Re: Alternative Vistani Interpretations?

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alhoon wrote:
ewancummins wrote: If you look back at my games, you will see the great majority of NPC fighter types have been male. Warrior women exist, but they are rather unusual. More common than in most historical societies, yes, but not more common than in American or British fantasy literature written before the 1990s.(Bit of a guess on that last part, as I haven't read an awful lot of the newer stuff.)
I don't think there were warrior women in historical societies with a few notable individual exceptions (Joan D'Arc and a few pirate women). To put simply, before 20th century the idea of a warrior woman was unlady-like I think. Women were conditioned to think their place was in the kitchen.

DROW: Yes, I think Drow women had higher level cap as clerics and men as mages too.
As for females being stronger, here's Wikipedia confirming it.

The 'kitchen' stuff really depends on the period and place, or literary material, you are trying to emulate. Spot on if you are going for certain Victorian ideas of feminine domesticity (which don't necessarily apply to lower class girls and women, of course).



There's plenty of evidence that some Medieval European women travelled with armies, defended castles, operated businesses, sometimes led troops (not common, but a noblewoman might do it under certain conditions), etc.
Common women also did field work, as did children.
What women almost never did was become wandering killers/soldiers.
Though I've read that some women joined their husbands as bombard crewmen, in the early days when the guns were made by individual smiths and hired out as needed.


You are dead right that female professional or habitual combatants seem to have been very rare in actual history. It's something that does not show up much at all, for pretty obvious physical reasons: women are smaller, weaker, and somewhat slower (running) than men on average. This makes a big difference, no doubt all the more so in premodern combat with muscle-powered weaponry. It's also pretty dumb for a society to encourage many of its fit and healthy young women of breeding age to go off and risk getting killed, maimed, or captured. Men are more replaceable, up to a point. No women to bear children= no future.

There are some notable exceptions, like the all-female king's 'wives' regiment in the kingdom of Dahomey, which the French fought in the 19th Century. They were an exceptional group. Most women and girls in Dahomey didn't do this kind of stuff.
I believe Albanian ''Sacred Virgins'' have actually fought, too. But, again, that's an exceptional group. It's not at all a normal female role in the culture.

There is the question:

Is your Ravenloft more Medieval , RennFaire Fantasy, Gothic, what?

I've created a separate thread about sex roles and related stuff, so I won't derail this Vistani thread.
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Re: Alternative Vistani Interpretations?

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My Ravenloft is more Medieval \ Early renaissance, low magic setting with some gothic elements within.
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Re: Alternative Vistani Interpretations?

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Just quick addition, and the rest will go in the other thread if it draws any attention:

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/73 ... 8d5b13.jpg

Camp followers could be interesting background for a female PC. A thief or a hedge-wizardess seems likely.

Now, about the Vistani, camp followers is something mentioned in the Van Richten's Guide (and has historical precedent with the groups that inspired the literary and film stuff that inspired the creation of the Vistani, not that this matters much). So maybe camp followers or hirelings for adventuring parties could be a way to bring them into campaign play?
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Re: Alternative Vistani Interpretations?

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alhoon wrote:My Ravenloft is more Medieval \ Early renaissance, low magic setting with some gothic elements within.
Sounds great!


I think mine is perhaps a bit heavier on the Gothic elements, and has 19Th Century anachronisms creeping into the Medieval/Renaissance material. But it's certainly not a 'gaslight' or 'steam age' setting like Masque of the Red Death.
I'd say mid-magic to low magic.
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Re: Alternative Vistani Interpretations?

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Well, I never said that there's not 19th century material creeping in. Or 20th century morals. For starters, there's no good person in my Ravenloft that beats his wife, while I'm sure 14th-17th century men, good or bad by those standards, were not shy to abuse their wives. There's WAY too much tolerance in every place that's not intolerant. etc.
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Re: Alternative Vistani Interpretations?

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alhoon wrote:Well, I never said that there's not 19th century material creeping in. Or 20th century morals. For starters, there's no good person in my Ravenloft that beats his wife, while I'm sure 14th-17th century men, good or bad by those standards, were not shy to abuse their wives. There's WAY too much tolerance in every place that's not intolerant. etc.




20th Century morals?
Now that's scary.
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But that is thread drift, I think.

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