Alternative Vistani Interpretations?

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Alternative Vistani Interpretations?

Post by Hell_Born »

The Vistani are one of Ravenloft's oldest iconic races, but it has to be admitted that there are certain... issues... with the race. Although certainly far better handled than the Aperusa of Spelljammer (who start with "gypsies in space!" and add misogyny, cowardice, thievery, heresy and human trafficking to the mix), it hasn't gone unnoticed in modern eras that they're rather... politically incorrect. I know for a fact that I saw a post here from a European user stating that their group had a very strong negative reaction to the Vistani due to the real-world issues of anti-Roma prejudice and the obvious comparisons between Vistani and Romani.

Plus... let's face it, beyond the "creepy gypsy mystic out of Hammer Horror Films", the big role of the Vistani is that they're supposed to be living deus ex machinas and plot engines for Ravenloft DMs. Need somebody to show up and give essential clues to your boneheaded party? Vistani ahoy! Need somebody to curse someone, fairly or not, to produce a monster for your latest adventure? Vistani did it! That might be fine with some DMs, but others don't necessarily like that role. I mean, let's face it, this kind of makes Vistani into an entire species of Elminsters.

So, I was curious; have any Ravenloft DMs out there ever altered or tweaked the Vistani? If you have, what did you do, and why?

For myself... well, honestly, I don't like the "living plot hook" aspect of canon Vistani or the hamhanded mystification they get, so, I counter that.

My Vistani are still technically ordinary humans - it's just that their culture is alien, they have strong inherent magical talents (respected traditions analoguous to wizards and bards, very high propensity towards sorcerers, many Ritual Caster equivalents), and they have access to a lot of knowledge about the inner workings of the demiplane. They don't know everything, but they do know enough to give them edges and abilities that the common folk lack, and they play up on what they have because that bunkum is a source of defense against the prejudices of other cultures.

5th edition has actually strengthened my preference for this take on Vistani, because 5e's Curse of Strahd not only gave us a full-fledged Vistani that actually looked pretty playable in its own right, but a new wrinkle in their lore - that they have passage through the mists because of their connection to Strahd and his curse, not because they're somehow stronger than the Dark Powers or anything like that.

Incidentally, I really don't like the Half-Vistani race; even beyond the unfortunate "the Vistani aren't human!" implications, there's the simple fact it's essentially the Ravenloft Half-Orc in terms of limited background - really, have you ever seen a Half-Vistani who's origins didn't involve either the Vistani father seducing & then abandoning the human mother, the mother being raped by the father, or the Vistani mother having the child from a one-night stand and then abandoning it with its human father?

Something that I've actually just thought of doing is reworking the Vistani by making them halflings as a base-race rather than humans. No, wait, hear me out: halflings do have at least one edition's of lore as nomadic caravan travelers, and that combination of lifestyle and physical ineptitude would work well as a justification for both pursuing mysticism and going out of their way to make others afraid of their powers. Plus, that diminutive stature makes them more exotic and alien, which adds a reason why the humans are so unnerved by them. I don't know, I just think that mixing this with my aforementioned take on Vistani could make for something really distinctive, but which could also be fully playable.
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Re: Alternative Vistani Interpretations?

Post by Gonzoron of the FoS »

Hell_Born wrote:really, have you ever seen a Half-Vistani who's origins didn't involve either the Vistani father seducing & then abandoning the human mother, the mother being raped by the father, or the Vistani mother having the child from a one-night stand and then abandoning it with its human father?
Absolutely. In fact, I haven't seen any of those origins, and neither the half-vistani I played as a PC, nor the one that's a PC in the campaign I DM fit into any of them. I'm guessing this is a YMMV situation.
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Re: Alternative Vistani Interpretations?

Post by Dion of the Fraternity »

4E sort of fixed the Vistani to make them be of any player race, and to give all members the "Evil Eye" ability. I suppose this concept might have been carried on to 5E to eliminate the "half-Vistani" conondrum: either you're one of them or you're not. Which I suppose is fine.
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Re: Alternative Vistani Interpretations?

Post by brilliantlight »

I have to admit I have used them more as "walking plot devices" than anything else being primarily fortune tellers who give clues and guides that can lead them through the mists. One change I made is that they are very honorable and that they always follow through on any bargains they make. They have no "false seers" that con people out of their money. If a Vistani woman says she tell fortunes than she can, there are no fakes. If they say they will guide you somewhere you will get there come Hell or high water.
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Re: Alternative Vistani Interpretations?

Post by Dark Angel »

Hell_Born wrote:My Vistani are still technically ordinary humans - it's just that their culture is alien, they have strong inherent magical talents (respected traditions analoguous to wizards and bards, very high propensity towards sorcerers, many Ritual Caster equivalents), and they have access to a lot of knowledge about the inner workings of the demiplane. They don't know everything, but they do know enough to give them edges and abilities that the common folk lack, and they play up on what they have because that bunkum is a source of defense against the prejudices of other cultures.
I have always seen them more in line with the above, rather than the 'Race of Elminsters' (though I see your point, it is warranted). When running modules, Vistani play a huge portion to the set up and are often used as misty smugglers by DMs who have a hard time bringing PCs from one random location to another. I have rarely used Vistani for a shuttle service and the biggest issue of having them trek from one domain to another is they level up from the greater number of encounters and adventures on the way. Now the funny thing is the fact that this is how I run and view the Vistani. That is not how my players see them, however. They see them as agents of Strahd and thieving rogues who go unchallenged (they have been in Barovia more than anywhere else) even though they have seen (and a half breed one dealt with first hand) the awful persecution of the Vistani in many other domains. The Raunies have that greater connection and wield that game breaking level of power, but not the common ones for certain.

I like your view of Halflings instead of humans as the base template for the race, but I have been in a Birthright campaign setting where the halflings there (yes, all of them) can enter into a shadowy umbra-like realm (think Frodo putting on the ring in the Prancing Pony). Does it work? Sure. Does it make them a little more sinister in nature to be able to hop into another reality known for dangerous creatures and a hazardous environment? Oh yeah. Because of that am I less likely to adopt that in my game? Probably, but that is what you do and more power to you. I am also going out on a limb and assuming since they are now halflings, interspecies breeding is completely out.
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Re: Alternative Vistani Interpretations?

Post by Gonzoron of the FoS »

brilliantlight wrote:One change I made is that they are very honorable and that they always follow through on any bargains they make. They have no "false seers" that con people out of their money. If a Vistani woman says she tell fortunes than she can, there are no fakes. If they say they will guide you somewhere you will get there come Hell or high water.
This works for me. Honestly, I don't have a problem with the Vistani as written, aside from the Corvara. I think that including one tribe that fulfills all the awful stereotypes was a bad call.
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Re: Alternative Vistani Interpretations?

Post by ewancummins »

I like them essentially as presented. "Old movie gypsies" is a fun, fitting trope for Ravenloft.
The VR Guide is nice.

I don't do political correctness---certainly not in gaming.
That being said, I can see how some European players might be reminded of real world anti-Roma prejudice (It's just not a significant social issue in my country ). DMs should handle all that as they see fit. Trust your own judgement about what works for you and your players, I say.

The Vistani are based on a romantic portrayal of 'gypsies' from film and literature that really isn't close to RW ethnic groups. Barovians aren't Vlachs or Romanians, either. It's not as if "superstitious vaguely SE or Central European villagers" isn't a stereotype. I'm not in love with the Kingfuhrer 3E Falkovnia, though it's certainly well-written, but I wouldn't hesitate to use it for fear of offending players. What else? I suppose references to slavery and a Voodoo-styled fantasy tradition in Sourange might offend some people. Not me.

YMMV
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Re: Alternative Vistani Interpretations?

Post by ewancummins »

Dark Angel wrote:
Hell_Born wrote:My Vistani are still technically ordinary humans - it's just that their culture is alien, they have strong inherent magical talents (respected traditions analoguous to wizards and bards, very high propensity towards sorcerers, many Ritual Caster equivalents), and they have access to a lot of knowledge about the inner workings of the demiplane. They don't know everything, but they do know enough to give them edges and abilities that the common folk lack, and they play up on what they have because that bunkum is a source of defense against the prejudices of other cultures.
I have always seen them more in line with the above, rather than the 'Race of Elminsters' (though I see your point, it is warranted). When running modules, Vistani play a huge portion to the set up and are often used as misty smugglers by DMs who have a hard time bringing PCs from one random location to another. I have rarely used Vistani for a shuttle service and the biggest issue of having them trek from one domain to another is they level up from the greater number of encounters and adventures on the way. Now the funny thing is the fact that this is how I run and view the Vistani. That is not how my players see them, however. They see them as agents of Strahd and thieving rogues who go unchallenged (they have been in Barovia more than anywhere else) even though they have seen (and a half breed one dealt with first hand) the awful persecution of the Vistani in many other domains. The Raunies have that greater connection and wield that game breaking level of power, but not the common ones for certain.

I like your view of Halflings instead of humans as the base template for the race, but I have been in a Birthright campaign setting where the halflings there (yes, all of them) can enter into a shadowy umbra-like realm (think Frodo putting on the ring in the Prancing Pony). Does it work? Sure. Does it make them a little more sinister in nature to be able to hop into another reality known for dangerous creatures and a hazardous environment? Oh yeah. Because of that am I less likely to adopt that in my game? Probably, but that is what you do and more power to you. I am also going out on a limb and assuming since they are now halflings, interspecies breeding is completely out.

Birthright Halflings.
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Re: Alternative Vistani Interpretations?

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Halflings don't work with my vision of Vistani more because I have my own take on them that excludes it (which is the subject of another thread.) But that's entirely my personal thing, halflings could certainly work if you wish.

If/when I repurpose the Vistani, I'll have their function fill sociocultural roles similar to how I imagine the adventuring occupation fills: namely, a pressure release valve for society's misfits and outcasts in a narrow-minded world that lacks effective and legitimate institutions (example: religion) that could otherwise serve as havens for these people to go to. I'd play up imagery of traveling circuses/sideshows combined with mobile trade guilds. The thing that makes the Vistani what they are is not bloodline but rather attuning rituals that connect them to the mystical forces they follow. Being "half-vistani" is mostly a misnomer, as it is more of a function not usually of parentage but rather the attuning rituals only having partial success.

Individuals might be drawn to the Vistani via a process similar to "the Calling" that brings applicants to the Order of the Guardians. Another method of recruitment is the reception of unwanted children from parents in a land where the killing of children (as in, Innocents) is an act of Ultimate Darkness. In such a world, it would mean that infanticide would carry a much greater stigma due to the effects of failed powers checks.
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Re: Alternative Vistani Interpretations?

Post by Resonant Curse »

I don't really understand where the "overpowered" description you give them really comes from? Do they have a few extra abilities over humans (evil eye, enhanced chance of a curse working, etc.)? Yes, but most of those are either dm fiat if they work or percent chance, and to make a curse something truly harmful has a small chance of success. Yes they have a better grasp of the demiplane than most others, but all that really lets them do is avoid some of the nastier border closures by staying on the good side of the associated darklord and have a noticeably, but not guaranteed, chance of making it where they want to go in the mists. Sure, they are generally written in to be DM tools to get the party where they need to go, but they are far more fleshed out as a race (with its own number of pitfalls like the penalties for staying in one place too long) and people than almost any other D&D group due to having an in-depth guide to them via Van Richten.

I don't generally see the trope gypsie as being any worse of an offender than the superstitious, uneducated european peasant? Almost all of Ravenloft is tropes of one kind or another. I don't see it usually ever coming up as a direct issue unless someone of Roma heritage was in your group, and even then, it is all in how you as the dm portray them. There certainly are caravans that are dishonorable and full of charlatans and thieves, but there are also a good number of them that honor their word.
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Re: Alternative Vistani Interpretations?

Post by thekristhomas »

IMC with the exception of Madame Eva, Vistani are essentially normal humans with a strong tradition of divination magic that is inherited, but I come from a time before sorcerors, so I'd probably put it in those terms today. Madame Eva is the actual "Elminster" being exceptionally powerful and existing in non-linear time, and she is the source of the Vistani's power (in fact she is also the source of the Vistani curse)

The main advantage that Vistani have, greater IMHO than mist navigation which is a consequence of their divination abilities, is that their camps remain unmolested, they are sanctuaries in the darkness. The price they pay for this is their purity, and this the reason behind many of the Vistani traditions, for example it's why half-blooded children are eventually abandoned, why all the goods of the dead are burned etc, to maintain the "purity" of the camp site and the protection it affords all. As such, it is in no way guaranteed and cannot be relied upon by PCs.

I think a full-blood Vistani PC would be playable in this setup, the sanctuary of the campsite would be unavailable to adventuring Vistani as it requires the tribe to function, and if mist navigation was too much for your campaign you could again require both the captain and the raunie for it to work. Some players might find the gender roles of males/fighter/thief, females/priest/sorceror a little restrictive, but passed that I think it should work.

I suppose the biggest difference I have is that ALL Vistani, Eva included, are, to some extent, frauds. In that they are no closer to understanding the nature of things and their place in it anymore than anybody else, but they are really good at suggesting that they are. This is both a consequence of their focus on divination, which gives a good impression of understanding the now by foretelling the future, and the need to give the peasants pause before attacking.

As for Madame Eva she is that one exceptional rule breaking character, but even she, I would suggest, is on one level, winging it.
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Re: Alternative Vistani Interpretations?

Post by The Lesser Evil »

Gonzoron of the FoS wrote:
Hell_Born wrote:really, have you ever seen a Half-Vistani who's origins didn't involve either the Vistani father seducing & then abandoning the human mother, the mother being raped by the father, or the Vistani mother having the child from a one-night stand and then abandoning it with its human father?
Absolutely. In fact, I haven't seen any of those origins, and neither the half-vistani I played as a PC, nor the one that's a PC in the campaign I DM fit into any of them. I'm guessing this is a YMMV situation.
There's been at least a few. For example:
Gabrielle Aderre (and possibly Isabelle Aderre?)
Alexi "Sasha" Petrovich
all of the Children of the Gentleman Caller
Marynia Teslenko from Champions of Darkness
Mircea Giurgiu (Death Unchained)
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Re: Alternative Vistani Interpretations?

Post by Gonzoron of the FoS »

The Lesser Evil wrote:There's been at least a few. For example:
Gabrielle Aderre (and possibly Isabelle Aderre?)
Alexi "Sasha" Petrovich
all of the Children of the Gentleman Caller
Marynia Teslenko from Champions of Darkness
Mircea Giurgiu (Death Unchained)
Fair enough. I was thinking of its use as a PC race, and didn't think we were talking NPCs. But yeah, those are good examples of what Hell_Born was talking about I suppose. But unlike half-orc, problematic origins are far from the only option for half-vistani.
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Re: Alternative Vistani Interpretations?

Post by ewancummins »

Gonzoron of the FoS wrote:
The Lesser Evil wrote:There's been at least a few. For example:
Gabrielle Aderre (and possibly Isabelle Aderre?)
Alexi "Sasha" Petrovich
all of the Children of the Gentleman Caller
Marynia Teslenko from Champions of Darkness
Mircea Giurgiu (Death Unchained)
Fair enough. I was thinking of its use as a PC race, and didn't think we were talking NPCs. But yeah, those are good examples of what Hell_Born was talking about I suppose. But unlike half-orc, problematic origins are far from the only option for half-vistani.
Yep.
There's no reason to suppose that a Vistana couldn't fall in love with a man from some other culture. They are still women, after all, and men are men. Social pressures and shunning can't always stop twu wuv.
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Re: Alternative Vistani Interpretations?

Post by Gonzoron of the FoS »

ewancummins wrote:Yep.
There's no reason to suppose that a Vistana couldn't fall in love with a man from some other culture. They are still women, after all, and men are men. Social pressures and shunning can't always stop twu wuv.
Or a male vistana falling in love with a giorgio woman... (or a male vistana falling for a male giorgio or female vistana for a female giorgio, for that matter, though they'd need some help producing a half-vistani). But aside from the twu wuv option, there are others. For one, the VRG says that you can use the half-vistani race to represent a mortu, which is what the PC I ran was.
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