NPC vs PC Social skill? How do you handle it?

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NPC vs PC Social skill? How do you handle it?

Post by Nox »

I noticed many NPC, monsters, and creatures in general have skill point in Intimidation, Diplomacy, Persuasion...
This make me think that you should actually use those skill, otherwise what's the point of investing anything in them? what's the point of even mentioning that skill if a monster is not supposed to intimidate a PC?

But I know that telling a player "You are scared of this guard, and you'll do as he says" would leave that player unhappy.

I've seen around the web that many people have a bunch of different ideas on this topic.
I'd like to know yours, and find my way about this.
I'd like to keep it simple, but i'm lost at the moment.

So, how do you handle it?
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Re: NPC vs PC Social skill? How do you handle it?

Post by Igor the Henchman »

Sometimes my players will ask to use Insight on NPCs they encounter to get a better read on them. I secretly oppose their check with the NPC's Deception, Intimidation, or Persuasion, depending on whether the character wants to conceal something, look menacing, or influence the heroes. If the PC fails the contest, I'll say something like "You sense hidden danger within this man. You think it would be very a bad idea to cross him" or "This lady appears to genuinely like you, and she really believes this mission she's trying to sell you on could make you very rich". But I never dictate how the PCs should react.

It also comes handy in complex social contests, like if for example the PCs try to convince the duke that his trusted vizier is a doppelganger in disguise, while the vizier tries to brand them as traitors and spies.

Other than that, it's just a handy role-playing reference for how to portray the NPC.
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Re: NPC vs PC Social skill? How do you handle it?

Post by Gonzoron of the FoS »

yeah, agree with Igor. I'd never use it to force a PC to do something, but use it an input to RP.
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Re: NPC vs PC Social skill? How do you handle it?

Post by Nox »

Igor the Henchman wrote:Sometimes my players will ask to use Insight on NPCs they encounter to get a better read on them. I secretly oppose their check with the NPC's Deception, Intimidation, or Persuasion, depending on whether the character wants to conceal something, look menacing, or influence the heroes. If the PC fails the contest, I'll say something like "You sense hidden danger within this man. You think it would be very a bad idea to cross him" or "This lady appears to genuinely like you, and she really believes this mission she's trying to sell you on could make you very rich". But I never dictate how the PCs should react.

It also comes handy in complex social contests, like if for example the PCs try to convince the duke that his trusted vizier is a doppelganger in disguise, while the vizier tries to brand them as traitors and spies.

Other than that, it's just a handy role-playing reference for how to portray the NPC.
Gonzoron of the FoS wrote:yeah, agree with Igor. I'd never use it to force a PC to do something, but use it an input to RP.
Thank you both. By any means do you know some good source for a Roleplaying advices? I could be good at typing a Roleplay scene, but at the table I find it hard to differentiate characters.
Ex. I think I am not good at Intimidating (for example, as a guard) , or playing the sneaky guy, a shy girl or a scared character. Maybe I just look silly :mrgreen:.
My players get what's the situation, but I'd like to improve in my roleplay and voice acting.
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Re: NPC vs PC Social skill? How do you handle it?

Post by Dark Angel »

Nox wrote:I noticed many NPC, monsters, and creatures in general have skill point in Intimidation, Diplomacy, Persuasion...
This make me think that you should actually use those skill, otherwise what's the point of investing anything in them? what's the point of even mentioning that skill if a monster is not supposed to intimidate a PC?

But I know that telling a player "You are scared of this guard, and you'll do as he says" would leave that player unhappy.

I've seen around the web that many people have a bunch of different ideas on this topic.
I'd like to know yours, and find my way about this.
I'd like to keep it simple, but i'm lost at the moment.

So, how do you handle it?
It's how they are portrayed by you (as you are the eyes and ears for their world). A rookie guardsman will say, "Let me see those hands, I am required to search you before you enter the King's Ward." But when his voice is a little shaky, his eyes bouncing from one player's scabbard to the other, a little sweat dripping down the side of his face, etc, the players may not bat an eye and not listen.

Now let's replace only the guard (keeping the exact same command) with an older guard, blind in one eye, with several days growth of beard and a relax air about him as he stares the biggest, strongest, or most powerful PC (like a magic user) in the eye with a look that says, "Try something, I dare you. But know this, you'll feel my blade first as I slip it into your ribs before your friends kill me."

Now let's assume your players laugh the first guy off, try to walk past them, and ignore the orders right off. Roll the rookie's Intimidation check. He fails, they continue and he looks like a puny wimp. That's fine (unless it is critical to the adventure). If he passes, rolls really well. Then have him jump in front of the PCs with a louder, steadier voice and his sword half pulled and repeat the order with a tone that draws the attention of a passing squad of guards or ones at the checkpoint. Now with several guards looking at them, see how tough they are in a city where they can be pursued by several guards at any moment. They need to understand there are consequences.

I am a firm believer that the players should be able to best the majority of NPCs in a town, city, etc. They are probably higher level, better trained, better armed, and have magic items that will change the battles. When the players begin making waves (i.e. causing trouble, starting fights, or just intimidating others), they will draw tougher NPCs to handle them. Even if the tougher NPCs lose, they players should know they were in a fight. If the players lose a fight, don't kill them. Let the NPC make a comment, grab a coin purse, or inform the local guards who detain the PCs and slap them in jail for a few hours (with a fine for disturbing the peace).

That all is how Intimidation works (sorry, I tend to capitalize roleplaying terms, stats, skills, etc to show they are a gaming term and not a part of something else (for example, when the bard tried to stop the fight diplomatically, he rolled a Diplomacy check DC 15)). Little things like that can define a character and how they are played. A first level fighter charging into his first battle and kills off three orcs while only getting hit once will likely continue such dangerous behavior. If he got knocked out in the first round and the rest of the party had to save him, he will likely be more cautious in combat situations later on.
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Re: NPC vs PC Social skill? How do you handle it?

Post by Igor the Henchman »

The Ravenloft Dungeon Master's Guide has an interesting section about using voices, accents and body language to roleplay NPCs.
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Re: NPC vs PC Social skill? How do you handle it?

Post by DeepShadow of FoS »

I use a system for reputation combat from Dragon magazine, where a character's base "Reputation Points" was calculated from the following formula: level+(Cha bonus)+(Bluff ranks)+(Diplomacy ranks)+(Intimidate ranks). This functions like a character's social HP stat, so people can say, "Ha, my insult nailed him for 14 points of damage!"
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Re: NPC vs PC Social skill? How do you handle it?

Post by Igor the Henchman »

I seem to remember that... was it in the gladiator-themed issue?
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Re: NPC vs PC Social skill? How do you handle it?

Post by DeepShadow of FoS »

No, it was about high level games...just looked it up, it's issue 294 and the article was by Robin Laws--Adding Injury to Insults
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Re: NPC vs PC Social skill? How do you handle it?

Post by Nox »

thanks all! Every bit of information is useful! If you have some other examples of actual roleplay they will be really apreciated!
Dark Angel wrote: It's how they are portrayed by you (as you are the eyes and ears for their world)....
That was really helpful! Examples always help me more than theory :lol: .
Now I see that intimidation is more of a "how I should act that scene". 'till now I used intimidate (as a player expecially) by saying something and then rolling, but doing the other way is waaaay more logic (and fun). As a DM i did not use any social skill yet but i surely will now that you clarified this kind of "roll based roleplay".
DeepShadow of FoS wrote:No, it was about high level games...just looked it up, it's issue 294 and the article was by Robin Laws--Adding Injury to Insults
I heard of it some time ago, but never checked. Does it work well? I think i'm gonna check it out since you mentioned it!
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Re: NPC vs PC Social skill? How do you handle it?

Post by Dark Angel »

Nox wrote:thanks all! Every bit of information is useful! If you have some other examples of actual roleplay they will be really apreciated!
Dark Angel wrote: It's how they are portrayed by you (as you are the eyes and ears for their world)....
That was really helpful! Examples always help me more than theory :lol: .
Now I see that intimidation is more of a "how I should act that scene". 'till now I used intimidate (as a player expecially) by saying something and then rolling, but doing the other way is waaaay more logic (and fun). As a DM i did not use any social skill yet but i surely will now that you clarified this kind of "roll based roleplay".
Trust me, I am no master actor by any means, but regardless of how I sound doing a bit (to set one NPC apart from another with a stupid accent, a tick, or something like sniffling or odd), lowering my brow and placing my finger tips together (just Youtube 'Mr. Burns' and 'excellent'), or doing something out of the norm. I played an Old West campaign with a group of tough PCs who was working with a little Irish jackass who ran a local gang. Even though he was of a smaller size and not physically tougher than the players, I always stood up and paced the room 'as him'. It was odd, they didn't mouth off as much and showed a little more respect than not. It also helps when a few 'big guys' are present when they make some negative comment and I (as the 'little boss') point to an area off to the side and say, "back off, and donna worry aboot it at'tall" as the big guys are backing off from beating the mouthy PC. Accents are great for really setting aside an NPC, but try to use if for the major NPCs as keeping track of every single one is exhausting.

Acting skills aside, I have heard many tales where DMs do impressions or voices that the PCs don't take seriously. One I read was a woman who did a Halfling voice and sounded like Butters from South Park. Her players were laughing so hard they couldn't react as she completely killed off their party.

They will get that you may be doing silly voices, but it's their butts on the line.
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Re: NPC vs PC Social skill? How do you handle it?

Post by DeepShadow of FoS »

Nox wrote:I heard of it some time ago, but never checked. Does it work well? I think i'm gonna check it out since you mentioned it!
Yeah, it's a simple system but it's pretty easy to expand. Even though some of it may still be ad-hoc (how much of a bonus does Drakov get for being a political ruler, etc) but it's a great starting point.
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The Puppeteer must cut the strings
The Orphan Queen must take the throne
The Queen of Orphans calls them home
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