4Edition. Do you like it?

[alhoon]

I've found the cost really pushes people away from rituals, especially since you get exactly enough cash for a magic item. If you buy rituals and cast them you're sacrificing a magic item.

Ahem... that's only true if you go by the book with treasures.
Giving a bit extra helps. +15-20% money isn't really a problem. It's not enough money to buy an item of your level after all. Perhaps a useful trinket but nothing dramatic.
It's really not a big deal. Even if the characters try to add up all their extra cash and buy something, by 7th level they will be able to pool their resources together and buy ... a singe level 7 item. It's really, really not a balance breaker.

That's especially true if you add some of this extra cash as... ritual components. Instead of a total monetary treasure of 2000 gold at 5th level, give 2200 gold and 200 gp as ritual components.
I.e the mage guild of the town doesn't give straing cash and items for the heart of monster X. It gives an item, some gold and some alchemical regents.

[Kaitou Kage]

This always irks me, how even something like glitterdust does damage now. Every attack HAS to hurt, you cannot make a character that simple works with other characters or assists or hinders the enemy. They have to hinder AND hurt.

This is no longer true (though I personally don't see why it's a big deal). Arcane Power has many Illusion spells that deal no damage but have pretty potent debilitating effects.

[tec-goblin]

Yes, but I guess that cheetah does the same damage as the ranger with at will attacks, right? And it would the same damage with per encounter powers as if it was a crocodile or a sharp-tooth armadilo... and also has the same speed.

No, you're wrong. Animal companions have different speeds and damage. The attacks of the beast are based on while those of the ranger on [W] (his weapon die).
That's a perfect example of judging something you've never read.

Also there are two ways to approach the fly problem or the divinations problem:
1. Put some effort and thinking on it, or predict they will be used and craft the adventure accordingly.
2. Don't think at all. Just remove them.

I don't craft adventures usually. I craft NPCs and the react to the players' actions. I've done a lot of the #1, but it's really counter-productive.
As for the #2, you actually admit here that 4e (which has nerfed them) is doing better than 3.5 in this, as it doesn't need any house rules. And no, removing them completely is not an option. You WANT to fly sometimes, it's DnD after all.

Sure, it makes intrigue adventures much more difficult to make... but also gives a feeling of accomplishment to the cleric of the party.

As if the 3.5e cleric needed that... He's the most über class (together with the psion and the archivist).

[tec-goblin]

On wild mages: I don't even think they were ever seriously incorporated in 3rd edition. I remember seeing something somewhere (perhaps FR) but they were... un-wildy. No more 6th level spells from a 5th level caster or colored butterflies instead of effects.

How do they feel in 4E since I cannot buy the book and see them (curse you to spiked embrace of a dozen starving hamatula!) ? Any examples?

I agree with you for 3e, their implementation was meeeh.
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drfe/20090126 for the preview

I shouldn't copy an example power (it's not legal), but let's say that in half of your powers, depending on whether your attack roll was even, there's an extra or altered effect. Sample power names are: Chaos Bolt, Reeling Torment, Energetic Flight.
You also gain variant resistant every day (one day you get fire, the other cold, it's unpredictable) and you can bypass the same type of resistance (so you can bypass 5 points of cold resistance one day, or fire the other).
They play with Charisma and Dexterity, so they get good Reflex and Will (they're running around unafraid etc, they're wild after all ).
Being a sorcerer (striker/controller), they do a lot of damage, and occasionally in areas too. Their blasts often teleport (when they create chaotic instability etc) or push people away.[/i]

[alhoon]

Tec-Goblin: We should agree to disagree on our approach on 4th edition it seems. We look for different things in there it seems.

Yes, but I guess that cheetah does the same damage as the ranger with at will attacks, right? And it would the same damage with per encounter powers as if it was a crocodile or a sharp-tooth armadilo... and also has the same speed.

No, you're wrong. Animal companions have different speeds and damage. The attacks of the beast are based on while those of the ranger on [W] (his weapon die).
That's a perfect example of judging something you've never read.

Hmmm... so there are some differences between the animal companions. At least that leaves open something for realism. Armadilo, more AC, less damage, less speed. Cheetah, less AC, more speed, more damage.

Still... I'm not exactly confident that the damage of the animal companions are so different from the damage of the ranger's powers.OK the ranger does say 2d8+6 +1d6 with encounter power A + hunter's quarry +bonuses. That's an average of 18.5 damage on a successful hit. If the beast does about the same average damage or it can do mostly things the ranger can do with their encounter powers... then it's not that different.
But as you said, I haven't checked the ranger to judge them.

I'll check the rangers in my local shop.
Martial Power was a good book that improved the Warrior classes, while I won't buy the PHB2 at least for the time, I'll check the ranger.

[tec-goblin]

Still... I'm not exactly confident that the damage of the animal companions are so different from the damage of the ranger's powers.

Of course not. That wouldn't be balanced. But there are significant differences for example. For example, our ranger's at will powers are either twin strike (to do a lot of damage) or circling strike where she attacks with just one weapon, but she lets her companion shift, which would help her gain flanking.
Similarly for daily, she has two powers that do similar damage, but in the one it's the beast that attacks and grabs the target, while in the other it's the ranger that can shift to get a better position.

We are definitely looking for different things in our games in some issues, but I think that in some cases we look for similar, and our disagreement is just in the fact that I have played about 35 4e sessions and know some details better. A lot of the things that seemed bizarre when we started, are quite handy now. There are three things in 4e that are slightly counter-intuitive, but if you grasp them, they really change your experience:
1) HP is not health (it's also morale, fatigue etc, particularly if you're not bloodied)
2) The description text of the powers is just a suggestion, you can describe it as you wish, as long as it has the same effects (so, after rolling, I often have the players describe their action in a cool and cinematic way).
3) The power curve is not the same as in 3e. You start more powerful, but you gain power in a less dramatic way (that's particularly valid for casters).

[alhoon]

We are definitely looking for different things in our games in some issues, but I think that in some cases we look for similar, and our disagreement is just in the fact that I have played about 35 4e sessions and know some details better.

Although you probably know the details better (since I don't pay much attention on them)... I had about 15-20 sessions in 4e. Remember, it's not that I don't like 4E, it's that I prefer 3.5 much of the time . There are still times and there will be times that I prefer the vast easiness of 4E over the complex numbercrunching of 3rd.
Also, my players don't like 4E. Although some of it is probably because I don't put as much effort in 4E games as I do in 3.5 D&D games.

1) HP is not health (it's also morale, fatigue etc, particularly if you're not bloodied)
2) The description text of the powers is just a suggestion, you can describe it as you wish, as long as it has the same effects (so, after rolling, I often have the players describe their action in a cool and cinematic way).
3) The power curve is not the same as in 3e. You start more powerful, but you gain power in a less dramatic way (that's particularly valid for casters).

1 and 2 are also true in 3rd edition.
About 3... yeap everyone that has played for 2-3 levels knows that. It's actually what turns down some of my players.
I told them that they should see each level as a "half-level" but still, they don't like the slow power progression.

[Jester of the FoS]

1) HP is not health (it's also morale, fatigue etc, particularly if you're not bloodied)

This has been true since 1e. There's a nice rant about this by Gygax in the first edition AD&D PHB.
The difference is, while in earlier editions not all of hp was physical injury, in 4e NO hitpoint loss is physical.

You can fall down a flight of stairs, tumble down a pit trap into lava, and get knocked off a cliff by the fiery breath weapon of a red dragon and knocked to one hitpoint shy of death and you'll still be fit and fine after a good six-hour power nap.

[alhoon]

You can fall down a flight of stairs, tumble down a pit trap into lava, and get knocked off a cliff by the fiery breath weapon of a red dragon and knocked to one hitpoint shy of death and you'll still be fit and fine after a good six-hour power nap.

No... probably after a five minute break, unless you're out of healing surges. 4 HSurges and you're healthy as ever.

[Lord Cyclohexane]

One of the things the Fraternity has considered doing is dumping the "Domain of the Month" and replacing it with "Darklord/NPC of the Month" and starting with 3e/4e stats and requesting hooks and stories.
But we're all busy so it hasn't started yet.

I've been meaning to request just such a thing for quite a long while.

I'd like to see something that's a cross between Secrets of the Dread Realms, to provide 4E stats and updated story of what's happened to the Darklord recently, and Chilling Tales / Children of the Night, where there'd be a short 5-7 page adventure centered around that particular Darklord (whether as an ally, adversary or even just a background element).

It's nice to know that a similar idea is already on the backburner.

[alhoon]

I think we had a similar thread a few years back. Toben the Many was one of the NPCs that we were trying to find adventure hooks for.

[dangerousbeans]

I find 4th ed mechanics to be solid, but the dramatic change in the feel of the game ruins it for me. I don't like dragonborn, and is there really a need for two types of elf? It seems like the developers had been playing a little too much WoW.

[Dion of the Fraternity]

...is there really a need for two types of elf?

Drizzt do'Urden and the Qualinesti have just planeswalked, and are approaching your location with pitchforks in hand.

[Jester of the FoS]

I've been dipping into the dangerous world of RPG blogs lately. And I've found some curious ramblings about D&D and 4e:

http://lotfp.blogspot.com/2008/06/i-hate-fun.html
http://www.therpgsite.com/showpost.php? ... stcount=70

I think some of the points are well made about how the game has changed.

[Mortavius]

You can fall down a flight of stairs, tumble down a pit trap into lava, and get knocked off a cliff by the fiery breath weapon of a red dragon and knocked to one hitpoint shy of death and you'll still be fit and fine after a good six-hour power nap.

Well, that's one interpretation. I prefer to think of some of the damage as being physical and some being fatigue and such. I think when characters are spending their healing surges during a rest, they are patching themselves up. Bandaging wounds, getting straightened out again. Perhaps the clerics healing magic (which in most cases just augments a healing surge) is actually healing the worst of the injuries, and the remainder is taken care of with regular medical care. Either way, after a rest and refreshment, the character is read to go again.

During combat, I view Second Wind and healing surges more as bursts of adrenalin; the stuff that allows the PC to shake off a wound (or at least ignore it until after the fight) and keep fighting.

I really feel that D&D is about heroes, and that's what the PCs are. They are the people like John Connor, and He-Man, and Conan, and every other multitude of movie and book characters; those beings that can take an inordinate amount of punishment and still keep going.

For me, the everyday characters have their place (for example, in a Call of Cthulhu game), and in those situations you want to reinforce the mortality. But not for me, when I'm playing D&D.