Realms of Dread OOC

[kintire]

Like Archidus and Rardi perhaps say consorting with a Brain eating alien monster maybe

Now that is a rather better example...

I do not think that mind flayers are innately evil. They are evil by human morality standards. They have their own morality because of their biological needs. They need to eat humanoids so their morality must accomodate their eating habits.

I'm not so sure: I'm not aware that they actually need to eat humanoid brains as such, and even if they did they are also heavily into enslavement, conquering worlds and putting out the sun...

Their past history with the Gith is pretty evil. Still, that doesn't mean any individual is necessarily evil of course.

[Archedius]

There are many sources that tell it as a biological requirement for Illithid to consume human brains as they lack the ability to produce certain hormones and enzymes on their own. The entire Illithid race can be seem as both parasite and predator towards humanity.

They are utterly dependant on humans for food (yes it's a fact, they eat meat, organs and blood too but they absolutely need brains), labor, protection and reproduction.

Again, their entire behavior, especially their domineering nature, seems geared towards ensuring they have access to food and reproduction. They also for the most part lack emotions that lead to empathy and love as the possession of these qualities would make the consumption of humanoids very emotionally taxing.

For them, it is NOT evil to keep thralls and perform experiments on humans. They are driven to do these things to make sure they can control their food source. They have natural abilities to dominate humanoids and have a natural aversion to light.

All of this is NATURAL for them. Enslavement is the same as keeping draft and meat animals for them, conquest is a means to ensure a large food and labor pool and their history with the Gith isn't anything special- just thralls that managed to throw off the yoke...for now.

Illithid do not fit into humanoid morality structures since their entire nature and biology depends on them manipulating, controlling and consuming humanoids. Individually an illithid might act out of synch with this (aside from the consumption aspect) but as a society and race there is no option.

If they are to survive they need to plan out resources and food in the long-term. This requires conquest and control of large numbers of humanoids for each and every Illithid to eat as well as many more to protect them and build the infrastructure needed to facilitate the whole process.

Are they 'evil' by humanoid standards- definately yes. Do I think they are actually evil in the big picture? No, they are as the wolf is to the sheep and are slaves to their biology just as humans are.

If you look at humans, our concepts of morality play off of our need to live in groups for safety and protection. Things that might destabilize or harm the group are considered immoral and evil.

[kintire]

There are many sources that tell it as a biological requirement for Illithid to consume human brains as they lack the ability to produce certain hormones and enzymes on their own. The entire Illithid race can be seem as both parasite and predator towards humanity.

They are utterly dependant on humans for food (yes it's a fact, they eat meat, organs and blood too but they absolutely need brains), labor, protection and reproduction.

As far as I am aware, human brains have no chemicals that animal brains don't. And in any case, i cannot believe that a race of hyper-intelligent researchers like the Illithid couldn't have come up with a way of synthesising the stuff by now!

For them, it is NOT evil to keep thralls and perform experiments on humans. They are driven to do these things to make sure they can control their food source.

"For them, it is not Evil" is a meaningless statement. Whether or not good and evil are relative to the person in the real world (and I believe they're not) they definitly arn't in DnD. Its an Objectivist world: good acts are good acts and evil acts are evil acts and there are the detection spells to prove it!

[Archedius]

We'll agree to disagree on the nature of good and evil in DnD.

Animals and humans may have many hormones and enzymes in common, but not all afaik and not in the same ratios.

Keep in mind that Illithid are efficient- why synthesize and consume MANY separate substances they need when they can simply do what's natural to them and eat food? I doubt you would rather take a billion pills rather than eat food and save time+ enjoy the taste more.

Illithid are carnivores and have evolved to eat humanoids: they cannot change that. If they were unintelligent I doubt you would consider them evil. Yet since they are intelligent, sentient predators of humanoids that makes them evil? I still don't see it.

But again, agree to disagree I guess : )

[kintire]

Keep in mind that Illithid are efficient- why synthesize and consume MANY separate substances they need when they can simply do what's natural to them and eat food?

You mean, why bother putting any effort in when killing sapient victims is so much more convenient?

I doubt you would rather take a billion pills rather than eat food and save time+ enjoy the taste more.

If my food was sapient I would...

Illithid are carnivores and have evolved to eat humanoids: they cannot change that.

But they can. They just can't be bothered.

If they were unintelligent I doubt you would consider them evil. Yet since they are intelligent, sentient predators of humanoids that makes them evil? I still don't see it.

Well, if you don't accept the difference between the acts of a non sapient being which is incapable of moral choices and the actions of a sapient being which is, we really will have to agree to disagree.

[Lord Skybolt]

LOL

[Archedius]

Grow up and don't be so petty. I was being nice about this- you can keep the sarcasm to yourself.


Biologically, they have no choice in the matter of whether or not to eat humanoid brains. They also need the psychic energy brains possess and this all stems from their parasitic existence. Their tadpoles take over a humanoid host but lack the ability to produce the chemicals and energy needed to sustain themselves. Thus they have evolved to take these chemicals from their food.

Guess what? Humans do this too! Omega 3 fatty acids are essential to healthy brain, nervous, muscle and repair yet the only sufficient sources of this are from other living things. Don't forget that our biology is the source of our views on morality.

At least read the Illithiad or the Lords of Madness books to have background on their biology and society. Survival is not evil as all living things desire it.

You're trying to apply human morality outlooks to beings that have radically different dietary needs than humans, radically different means of reproduction, radically different societal structure and completely different portfolios of emotions. They simply cannot understand humanoid morality as their minds are wired completely differently.

If you were an Illithid, you wouldn't have the slightest inclination that predation is wrong. You're stuck in the point of view of being a human.

You seem incapable of imagining what it would be like to be an Illithid. If you're going to even TRY to argue, you should at least be on the same level of looking at this from multiple angles. Philosophy must've been one heck of a tough course to for you to pass.

The fact that they're completely carnivorious seems to have no effect on you. A predator is going to naturally be desensitized towards its prey, otherwise it wouldn't survive.

Look at wolves: they can show affection and cooperate with one another, but they certainly wouldn't treat a sheep that way- they'd eat it as it is their nature and need to do so.

You've already admitted that Illithid have evolved to feed off of and maintain groups of humanoids for food. Are you saying that evolution is evil?

[Ken of Ghastria]

OK, that sort of response is uncalled for. "Grow up"? That's rude, especially since we're talking brain-sucking creatures in a fantasy setting.

If you are so opposed to the classification of illithids as evil, I presume you have also vented your anger on the writers of D&D over the decades, who have consistently classified them as such. I'd say it's a safe bet that even the writers of Lords of Madness would not disagree with that classification. Their role as writers was to create a functioning society/ecosysten for illithids, in which some sort of rationale needs to be applied to their activities. Most evil creatures do not walk around thinking of themselves as evil; that doesn't mean they're NOT evil, just that they believe they have a sound reason for their actions.

[ewancummins]

Okay guys.....

Alignment discussions are fine, flame wars not are okay.
Please no more personal remarks , from anyone. Thank you. We are all grown-ups here, and this is just a fantasy game. We are all free to have our own opinions and express them in a polite manner. The DM [moi] will make rulings when needed.

Ruling from on high:
For game purposes, the mind flayer is evil. Its very nature is intrinsically foul, deeply alien, and fundamentally hostile to human sanity and health. No, it doesn't think of itself as evil, but neither do many evil beings. It doesn't even have the same concepts of such things as a human- its species is utterly beyond human morality- but not beyond the COSMIC FORCES represented by the alignments of the game.

Note: Your PCs may have differing views on good and evil, and argue philosophy all they like.

[kintire]

Grow up and don't be so petty. I was being nice about this- you can keep the sarcasm to yourself

Absolutely nothing I said was sarcastic in any way. If it sounded that way, I apologise for the poor phrasing.

Guess what? Humans do this too! Omega 3 fatty acids are essential to healthy brain, nervous, muscle and repair yet the only sufficient sources of this are from other living things.

Except that, as thinking beings, we are capable of considering whether this is Good or not: becoming vegetarian for example, or avoiding eating each other.

Don't forget that our biology is the source of our views on morality

This is an extremely contentious statement, and not one that can be tossed off with a "don't forget that..." What's more, in DnD its just not true. Morality comes from the Outer Planes: there's a space out there for every moral outlook and the one you're aligned with is youralignment. And DnD is quite happy with races which have evolved to be evil.

They simply cannot understand humanoid morality as their minds are wired completely differently.

It is NOT "Humanoid Morality". It is universal morality. The Universe is, quite literally, built around it, with entire planes devoted to each moral outlook, where every soul goes, not just the human ones. When Illithids die they head out to the Outer Planes just like everyone else.

Look at wolves: they can show affection and cooperate with one another, but they certainly wouldn't treat a sheep that way- they'd eat it as it is their nature and need to do so.

Wolves are not sapient. They cannot think. They cannot make moral choices, so nothing they do can be moral, one way or the other. Illithid can not only think, they are an entire race of geniuses. The comparison is invalid.

You've already admitted that Illithid have evolved to feed off of and maintain groups of humanoids for food. Are you saying that evolution is evil?

Evolution has no moral value, good or evil. What its sapient products do with the results of it, does.

[VAN]

This is the first game I play with so much RP and PC interaction both IC and OOC!

[steveflam]

The evoker smiles at the thought that the dwarf is free.

You don't know the half of that one HHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!!!!!

[ewancummins]

The evoker smiles at the thought that the dwarf is free.

You don't know the half of that one HHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!!!!!

Indeed....

[steveflam]

K ewan pmed you back. Little unsure how to proceed with this actually.

[Lord Skybolt]

Hmmm what does that mean ?