5e announced!

[Lost Heretic]

To play Devil's advocate, though; which is the biggest selling RPG in the world and which is the biggest selling wargaming brand in the world?

I think you're trying to infer a logical fallacy there. But since you're making no conclusion, we'll never know.

EDIT: Basically, the fallacious argument is A is X. B is X. Therefore, all things of the same classification of A & B are X.

[MichaelTumey]

To play Devil's advocate, though; which is the biggest selling RPG in the world and which is the biggest selling wargaming brand in the world?

Well as far as biggest selling RPG in the world - it could be Pathfinder. There are some indicators that make that true. Nobody knows for sure - except WotC and Paizo and they aren't tellin' nor to each other.

[Drinnik Shoehorn]

To play Devil's advocate, though; which is the biggest selling RPG in the world and which is the biggest selling wargaming brand in the world?

I think you're trying to infer a logical fallacy there. But since you're making no conclusion, we'll never know.

EDIT: Basically, the fallacious argument is A is X. B is X. Therefore, all things of the same classification of A & B are X.

No, what I'm stating is a fact: D&D and Warhammer 40k are the biggest selling brands in their fields. Why? I'm no expert, but I'd say its because they've changed with the times.

[Le Noir Faineant]

I am happy about the recent developments.

Ever since the release year of 3.5, Wizbro essentially was a company whose policy was always against its customers.

While the new edition doesn't really bother me, my systems of choice today being the recently rereleased Dragon Warriors,
and the OD&D-close Lamtentation of the Flame Princess, I am welcoming this paradigm shift in their market strategy.

Now, between me happily nodding to some internet news and buying their new stuff, that's a longer way round.

[brilliantlight]

To play Devil's advocate, though; which is the biggest selling RPG in the world and which is the biggest selling wargaming brand in the world?

I think you're trying to infer a logical fallacy there. But since you're making no conclusion, we'll never know.

EDIT: Basically, the fallacious argument is A is X. B is X. Therefore, all things of the same classification of A & B are X.

No, what I'm stating is a fact: D&D and Warhammer 40k are the biggest selling brands in their fields. Why? I'm no expert, but I'd say its because they've changed with the times.

With D&D it is largely name recognition. It is the oldest RPG out there.

[Scipion_Emilien]

Well if amazon.ca is to be believed:

http://www.amazon.ca/Bestsellers-Books- ... b_2_957368

The best sellers:
-Pathfinder
-3.5 (Outsold by 4e only by the rule compendium)
-4e

Edit:

I did the same for amazon.com

http://www.amazon.com/Best-Sellers-Book ... nav_b_2_25

The best sellers:
-Pathfinder
-4e

The figures are consistant with the last time I watched (6 month ago)

And in my local FLGS, the PF books are now in the best view of the consumers, they replaced the D&D books at those spots.

I've seen new 4e books in the bargain bins at the FLGS while used 3rd edition book where still selling at a high price.

I don't know by what margin, but the indirect evidences that I can find all seems to point as PF selling more than 4e.

[MichaelTumey]

If the question was 'which is the best known RPG' hands down it's D&D, but the question was which is the biggest seller currently, and the best guess from avaialble sources is that D&D and Pathfinder are tied, or one of them has a slight edge over the other - but neither WotC nor Paizo are releasing all the information, so we don't know which is truly in the lead (one of them is however). The only thing one can say for sure is no matter how much of a market share is held by WotC, to Hasbro it's not enough of the share. There was some discussion on ENWorld regarding Hasbro wanting each productline from WotC to be selling $50 million a year - which D&D is not doing, nor is even really possible.

Pathfinder is selling well, and that is all that's really important to me.

[brilliantlight]

Well if amazon.ca is to be believed:

http://www.amazon.ca/Bestsellers-Books- ... b_2_957368

The best sellers:
-Pathfinder
-3.5 (Outsold by 4e only by the rule compendium)
-4e

Edit:

I did the same for amazon.com

http://www.amazon.com/Best-Sellers-Book ... nav_b_2_25

The best sellers:
-Pathfinder
-4e

The figures are consistant with the last time I watched (6 month ago)

And in my local FLGS, the PF books are now in the best view of the consumers, they replaced the D&D books at those spots.

I don't know by what margin, but the indirect evidences that I can find all seems to point as PF selling more than 4e.

Just look at the D&D computer games that come out. All the ones I know of are 3.5 e, I know of no 4e based computer games. That means the people who make a living on this figure it will sell better based on 3.5e instead of 4e.

[alhoon]

Pathfinder, using the OGL sells better than 4e.
And I was wondering 3 years ago why they didn't give an OGL like 3rd edition again. Well... because it outsells their main line.
Truth is, with all the venom against WotC, with the OGL they were far more generous than they could survivibly be. Some CEO is propably looking for work now for that OGL.

And to think many of us were considering them money-grabbing back in the day, while it seems now that the decision to give that crappy SRD with 4E was the logical thing to do.

[Scipion_Emilien]

Just look at the D&D computer games that come out. All the ones I know of are 3.5 e, I know of no 4e based computer games. That means the people who make a living on this figure it will sell better based on 3.5e instead of 4e.

I wouldn't read that much into that. WoTC had trouble with Atari who were owning the rights to D&D computers game and didn't want to produce them. They seems to have settle something recently.

The most recent D&D game is Dungeons and Dragons: Daggergale (which seem pretty average) which use 4e edition rules.

And we need not to forget the MMO Neverwinter which is supposed to use 4e rules. I'm still puzzle has to how they will sell an MMO with rules no longer current at his release.

[Scipion_Emilien]

Pathfinder, using the OGL sells better than 4e.
And I was wondering 3 years ago why they didn't give an OGL like 3rd edition again. Well... because it outsells their main line.
Truth is, with all the venom against WotC, with the OGL they were far more generous than they could survivibly be. Some CEO is propably looking for work now for that OGL.

And to think many of us were considering them money-grabbing back in the day, while it seems now that the decision to give that crappy SRD with 4E was the logical thing to do.

Well they tried to close that breach. The GSL had a clause that was saying that you needed to renounced to the OGL in order to publish with the GSL. But it seems that the genies was already out of the bottle.

On the others hand the fractured fanbase make it hard to find a game with the system you want to play. And Paizo can't use the rules for their videogames, the PF MMO will need to use another set of rules. And I'm not confident in their abilities to do a second edition of PF while still retaining the OGL.

As for D&D 5e, it remains to be seen what it will do, but PF players seems to have few incentives to go back to WoTC and the new editions have the risk of displeasing old 4e players. So they could potentially lose on both front.

My worst fear is that D&D become shelve by Hasbro and PF have trouble to change due to the restriction of the OGL.

[ScS of the Fraternity]

Truth is, with all the venom against WotC, with the OGL they were far more generous than they could survivibly be. Some CEO is propably looking for work now for that OGL.

A sad shame, but quite possibly true. D20 was a great idea for selling copies of the PHBs and DMGs. It was also in response to the real fact that you cannot copyright a rule - and because of that the rules of D&D were protected only by their unique terminology.

Back in the day, D&D needed to compete with the highly profitable properties in Wizards of the coast's catalog. There was just no way that the old strategies would boost sales of a pen and paper role-playing game to that of CCGs. The open gaming licence surely looked like a possible solution; it had an exciting and innovative approach. In truth it did generate support and interest for the D&D game at no cost to WotC, albeit at no profit.

Sadly, free support was just not enough. Wizards behaved extremely erratically and contradicted their own policies. See the difficulties between White Wolf and maintaining the Ravenloft licence, or even worse, the fiasco with Pazio. Just as Nintendo spawned Playstation, so too has Wizards created their greatest competitor with short sighted business policies.

Hopefully Wizards has developed a self-sustaining business model for 5th edition and will be able to maintain a consistent set of policies.

[alhoon]

Truth be told, they could continue with both editions, instead of doing everything possible to make 3E disappear.
If they still printed books of 3E that have gone out of print, and still selled the PDFs, with once a while a new box, or new cover or something, they could have kept half of the people that left for PFinder. Yes, 4E would have a strong competitor from the same company. But the company would still make money and wouldn't lose as many customers.

See what Whitewolf did with Masquerade? Realizing there are still people that play the oWoD... they reprinted it, and renamed it and gave it a shiny new appearance.
They didn't try to erradicate it.
That would be losing clients, and let's not forget: Masquerade hasn't given a free reign to a competitor to print almost the same rules.

Anyway, do you know what I think WotC secretly hopes? That there will be more "Pathfinders" out there, using the OGL to make antagonists of PFinder itself, eroding their fanbase. That would generate a new interest in RPG systems in general, if there were 3-4 3.75E to pick from + 5E instead of just PF and 5E.

[herkles]

Anyway, do you know what I think WotC secretly hopes? That there will be more "Pathfinders" out there, using the OGL to make antagonists of PFinder itself, eroding their fanbase. That would generate a new interest in RPG systems in general, if there were 3-4 3.75E to pick from + 5E instead of just PF and 5E.

I suppose you mean just dnd/d20 and not savage worlds, gurps, brp, unisystem, storyteller system, and the other various rpg systesms that do exist out there?

[Le Noir Faineant]

I think Wizbro's main issues are with their structural organisation, not so much with their rules system.

In what might well be considered a rather legendary rant, I made this list at the CBI:

Fans love OGL. WotC tries to kill OGL.
Fans love to buy PDFs online. WotC forbids PDF sales of their products.
Fans love Living Greyhawk. WotC kills Living Greyhawk.
Fans say, Eberron weird. WotC makes Eberron canon setting for D&D Online.
Fans love Forgotten Realms. WotC kills Forgotten Realms as we know it.
Fans love Dragon and Dungeon. WotC makes Dragon and Dungeon weird collection of blog articles that are BLEEP to print.
Fans want better product quality and better maps. WotC publishes unedited products and worse maps.
Fans want Dragonlance, Greyhawk and Ravenloft back. WotC brings back Dark Sun.
Fans want separate miniature game. WotC merge miniature game with normal D&D. With even worse maps.
Fans want trimmer rulebooks. WotC publishes a ruleset that is 700 pages of "core rules", and 1800 pages of "essentials".
Fans say, bring old designers back. WotC fires Richard Baker.

I think there has to be a profound paradigm shift at Wizards.
If they don't respect the fans, the fans won't respect them.