Ravenloft changes help

[herkles]

Hello,

I am working on doing a number of changes to Ravenloft to fit my view of the setting; not to mention the fact I am using BRP as a system. Anyways I am looking for some advice and help as I go about doing this; hence this thread.

To begin, the main changes I have made across the board are: magic is extremly rare, no demi-humans, longer history and ravenloft is its own thing, ie not connected to the multiverse.

with that out of the way lets look at Nova Vaasa and the religion of nova vaasa, the lawgiver faith, the first two things I would like some help with.

Nova Vaasa

History
The history is getting changed quiet a bit. The whole thing about them coming from fearun and the nightmare lands is being thrown out.

What I am doing is tying them into the Neurni and in particular the Terg hordes that invaded Barovia and Borca. Eventually these ancient tribes would evolve into the 5 great familes of Vaasa.

Name
I am going to rename it Vaasa; though other name offers are welcome.

Darklord

I like Melkan/tristian as characters to use, but I am not sure that he fits as the darklord. But I am not sure who it should be, and I don't want it to be the ruler. I am just not sure who else in Vaasa could fit.

Religion

I am completely changing the religion of Vaasa; the way the Lawgiver faith is set up I don't care for it. I have the Ezrites for the excess of the Catholic church, I don't like major religions to be almost evil from the outset, and I want something other then pseudo-catholic church.

However I am curious on how to go about changing it. The main ideas I have are:

A polytheistic religion; more of ancient rome sort of polytheism then anything else.
A Zororastian sort of religion.
A Mithras/Sol Invictus sort of church.

I will still keep the title Lawgiver though, mainly as a title that the chief god or god of good would have. But in general this is something which I am looking at having some help. So I am looking at some suggestions at how to go about

Any other advice, ideas and what not are welcome. I welcome help with everything above and more.

-herkles

[Jimsolo]

While it's tempting at first to make a lot of changes to an established region, I think you will find yourself better served either A) by running closer to the canon domain, or B) just setting your game in your own, homemade domain. It seems like you aren't interested in keeping the history, religion, society, or darklord of the domain, which kind of makes me wonder why you want to use it at all. It seems like it would be much easier on you to just make your own domain as an island of terror, which seems like it would fit what you are looking for much better.

The history of some of the older domains, as well as the weight of real-world history that many of them have are part of their strength. Discarding that does can often do a disservice to you and your gamers. It makes it harder for you and your players to connect your game into the forty years of history that stand behind Ravenloft, the Forgotten Realms, and D&D in general. I'm not saying that you can't do something new and original, but if that's what you want to do, then you should just create something wholly your own. It will make things clearer for your players, and if your new creation is good enough (and from what I can tell, you have the creativity needed to make a very engaging domain for you and your players) then your group will respect you all the more for it.

Either option is acceptable, whether you go with a Nova Vaasa that is more similar to what has already been created, or choose to create a new and separate domain that is all your own. I think that the middle ground, however, would leave you with a domain that neither you or your players will be completely happy with. No matter what you choose, of course, I wish you well with your game, and I hope your players enjoy it.

[HuManBing]

I think this is a potentially great idea, with a lot to recommend it. I would take it and run with it: change the cultures and the Core however you like, because it's your game and your gaming group - and you know your gaming group better than any of the rest of us.

Remember, canon is just a guideline. As a GM running your campaign, you don't "owe" any sort of "debt" to canon. Be creative!

From a purely geopolitical viewpoint, I like your idea, because if you place Nova Vaasa (or just "Vaasa") as another significant pillar of power, then you make the Core even more multipolar. Falkovnia and Darkon are already a well-known bloody rivalry; now with Nova Vaasa as the birthplace of the Tergs, you have given Barovia a source of rivalry as well. Tensions make for good storytelling. Darkon could well funnel covert aid to them, if they wanted to make sure Vaasa could continue needling and distracting Barovia. Plenty of food for thought here!

Is the Shadow Rift present in your campaign? Because if it is, then you have four big powers all vying for influence, separated by the Rift (or potentially making inroads to the Rift as a hazardous shortcut?).

Specific to your darklord, it seems that Vaasa in your scenario is a loose confederation of squabbling tribes. Perhaps this might be thematically similar to the Mongolian Empire in collapse, after the demise of its leaders, with various generals and warlords seeking to fill the power vacuum. I once thought about writing up a darklord whose "theme of rulership" was his inability to retain control - sort of like an anti-ruler. His tragic aspect would be that he earnestly wants to rule well, but lacks some spark of true leadership that would make that possible. So instead he settles for being a second-rate leader. Maybe he's too ruthless; maybe he's not ruthless enough. Maybe he's idealistic but lacks the experience. Or maybe he just wants to do what's right, but lacks the cutthroat instincts to thrive in tribal politics. (I tried statting up Duke Gundar with this exact theme about two years ago - a search for the term "Spearflights" will show you the thread.)

Many other darklords seem to struggle with a rule as oppressive despots. It could be interesting to look at the opposite end of the spectrum: the cares and concerns of a ruler whose people are insufficiently swayed by his rule and remain a squabbling band of tribes, delaying the fruits of civilization.

If the families are sufficiently established, they could each have a guiding religious figure. This could run the gamut from nomadic tribes' animal totems, to fully-realized deities with backstories and complex spheres of influence, such as the Greek gods. A polytheistic pantheon also allows for each deity figure to exhibit a range of traits, with some being flaws or at least capricious. (Unlike a monotheistic faith, which typically has to "be all things to all people" and thus usually ends up as a flawless paragon of Good.) This could allow familial characteristics for each faction, certain strengths offset by certain weaknesses. An expansion of Ravenloft's bloodlines might be a good spin-off for this domain. Several philosophies have historically held five as a significant number, too - see, for example, Chinese elementalism, which held the five basic elements to be Water, Fire, Air, Metal, and Wood. This could also be reflected in your domain's bloodlines.

Elsewhere in this forum, a poster did a revamping of Nova Vaasa as Gold-Rush era United States, because the wide open prairies and horses reminded them of the Wild West. A culture that emphasized individualism and "every man for himself" entrepreneurship would probably be very much at odds with the communitarian, "keep your head down and get along" philosophy of places like Barovia.

[herkles]

@Jimsolo: I plan on making a number of changes to the core as a whole. I am using what exists because there is a good bit that I do want to keep with canon (nova) vaasa.

I think this is a potentially great idea, with a lot to recommend it. I would take it and run with it: change the cultures and the Core however you like, because it's your game and your gaming group - and you know your gaming group better than any the rest of us.

Thanks. I will use this thread for various ideas on different domains as I go through my revisions and changes.

From a purely geopolitical viewpoint, I like your idea because if you place Nova Vaasa (or just "Vaasa") as another significant pillar of power, then you make the Core even more multipolar. Falkovnia and Darkon are already a well-known bloody rivalry; now with Nova Vaasa as the birthplace of the Tergs, you have given Barovia a source of rivalry as well. Tensions make for good storytelling. Darkon could well funnel covert aid to them, if they wanted to make sure Vaasa could continue needling and distracting Barovia. Plenty of food for thought here!

That is my thinking, it also does not endear the Vaasans to the Borcans either since both Barovia and Borca were under assult by the tergs in the past. But with this tension creates conflict and drama. Vaasa canonically is one of the biggest domains in the core, and that hasn't changed a bit. So it being a major player in the core should be noted.

Is the Shadow Rift present in your campaign? Because if it is, then you have four big powers all vying for influence, separated by the Rift (or potentially making inroads to the Rift as a hazardous shortcut?).

The shadow rift exists as the shadow forest. It is the same general area but a giant creepy forest. Tall trees that peirce the sky and block out all light and strange feyish things live there. The Shadow forest is why everyone bordering the area tell their kids "don't go into the woods"

Specific to your darklord, it seems that Vaasa in your scenario is a loose confederation of squabbling tribes. Perhaps this might be thematically similar to the Mongolian Empire in collapse, after the demise of its leaders, with various generals and warlords seeking to fill the power vacuum. I once thought about writing up a darklord whose "theme of rulership" was his inability to retain control - sort of like an anti-ruler. His tragic aspect would be that he earnestly wants to rule well, but lacks some spark of true leadership that would make that possible. So instead he settles for being a second-rate leader. Maybe he's too ruthless; maybe he's not ruthless enough. Maybe he's idealistic but lacks the experience. Or maybe he just wants to do what's right, but lacks the cutthroat instincts to thrive in tribal politics. (I tried statting up Duke Gundar with this exact theme about two years ago - a search for the term "Spearflights" will show you the thread.)

They were once a confederation of tribes in the past. They were once the Great empire of the Tergs, and take pride in that. But the current Vaasa as a government is similar to canon. When the Terg empire fell into chaos thanks to Strahd it lead to a period of chaos. The 5 great tribes of Vaasa came into an arrangement after a century or two of chaos. Thus as is canon, the 5 great families.As time went on the tribes evolved into noble houses. The country itself evolving from its tribal past into a more feudal society. This cycle of families rotating power worked for a while, but as time went on more and more princes saw themselves as being able to be a permanent king.

The vaasan still though despite their government's evolution retain their love of the horse. It is the pride of their kingdom. In addition, there is a strong since of imperialism and the idea of building up a new terg empire. One greater then the one before.

Like canon, Othmar Bolshnik, has broken this cycle. He is a man who is changing Vaasa and he believes for the better. Vaasa has lagged behind in development and by looking at the realms of dementlieu, borca, Darkon and even falkovina. Othmar knows that Vaasa would need to do some catching up to do. So he is on a path of modernizing his kingdom. He is thus investing in things like a loyal royal army, roads, a pony express, and most of all a brand new navy.

This of course has made the other four families upset and unsure of what to do. Some of them think it is best to side with Othmar, others are planning on recuriting the minor families and rebelling against Othmar and re-establishing the rulership of the cycle or perhaps like with what happened with ceaser, just have another guy take it over.

I could make him the Darklord, but one of the things I like about Vaasa as canon. Is that there is an imperalistic ruler who is not a darklord thus poses a truer threat to the core.

HuManBing: what did you think of the religion ideas for the replacement religion? I am still trying to work that out as religion is still a very important thing to the vaasan people, I am just changing it from the church of the Lawgiver to something else.

[HuManBing]

Concerning the leadership - it's good that you have a clear idea of the NV leadership under Othmar. How obvious do you want the darklord to be? Tristen/Malken are definitely a "behind the scenes" type of darklord, like Dominic d'Honaire, as the nominal ruler of the realm is a completely separate being.

What aspect of the human tragic condition is this darklord examining? For Azalin, it's the frustration of being in an intellectual cage when your abilities could otherwise excel - with a slight sidestory of paternal guilt for Irik. For Strahd, it's the longing for a love that's centuries beyond your grasp, with the guilt of fratricide. For Drakov, it's the lack of respect from one's peers (according to canon, at least).

Think about what element of the human condition you're examining, and then you can tailor the realm, the history, and the central political characters to fit that. Perhaps Othmar represents the adage of "it's lonely at the top". Developing on that, one could make his history a tale of unification, betrayals, and narrow victories over stark odds... but the twist is that he still can't rest his head securely. He seems like a much less absolutist ruler than Azalin or Drakov, so his realm's citizenry may be less miserable than either of those two dictatorships - but how secure is his rule really? Is he like a vulnerable figurehead, playing one house off against the other house, plotting intrigues and betrayal, throwing trusted friends into danger in order to save his own skin?

Or you might look at the angle of "even righteous rebels find it hard to govern well". This could be similar to a political appropriation of Midas' Touch, where, instead of everything turning to useless gold, everything the authority touches becomes roiled in chaos and upheaval. If your talent was inciting rebellion and mobilizing the oppressed to throw off their shackles, then the obvious question is "how well can you actually enforce a rule once the revolution succeeds?" A question that many popular Communist leaders faced in the past century, from Lenin and Mao to Che and Castro. If your darklord is popular with the people, but unable to overcome the squabbling wasteful rivalries of the noble houses, that could produce a tragic figure to build a story on.

A few other thoughts: NV seems to have a fair bit of similarities to Victorian England, at least in the surface appearance of propriety covering up a lurking undercurrent of indulgence and depravity. For a supernatural bogeyman example, you have Malken/Tristen, but a more nuanced reading could have Othmar as the "handsome face" for a system that is bedeviled by cronyism and corruption - betraying its initial promise of equality, fraternity, and liberty. (See Napoleon's conquest of Europe - once he overthrew the oppressive aristocracy, he essentially replaced them with an arbitrary group of hand-picked cronies who were just as oppressive as the last lot.) Victorian England may have been the time of Empire Across the Globe for one nation, with massive advances in military, commercial, and scientific study - but it was also the time when madams ran child brothels for clients - and yet there was an outcry against allowing women's toilets in public "on moral grounds".

For a religion, I'm really not the best counsel here. (I've been fairly-accurately described in another thread as "having a low opinion of organized religion".) If you do stick with the name of The Lawgiver, then it could further support a rigid social appearance of propriety, while at the same time allowing for all sorts of under-the-table subversive behavior. If the religion itself is a completely corrupt institution (as the Eternal Order in my campaigns has become) then you might get some historical inspiration from The Pornocracy, a period of time when the Vatican was run by a number of women who managed to parlay their sexual influence into the ability to choose and depose Popes.

[herkles]

I think I have worked out a religious system that makes sense to me; one that actually feels more like a religion with its good and ills.


The collapse of the Terg empire caused confusion for the tribes. Why did they lose was a common question. The had managed to conquer and were on the way of forging a great empire. Yet Strahd defeated the Terg empire and killed the great Warlord Durukan.

Thus the chaos and infighting following the collapse of their empire, a man by the name of Cesmil would reshape the Vaasan people by changing their religion. Cesmil was a prophet who taught that the world was ultimately divided between two gods, one good and the other evil.

The god of good is known Zasarif; which was the chief god of the Vaasan people during this time. The evil god being known as Hilabazlik, though few call him by that name instead referring him by a host of euphemisms; such as the other, the great tempter, and so on. Right and wrong, as well as justice and truth are thus highly important in the religion.

Many of the local gods were attributed to either god, though a few of the gods with a great amount of popularity were reclassified as angels or demons, ie servants of the Zasarif or of Hilabzlik.

This is also What the church that Cesmil founded still does when it comes in contact with other religions. For instance, Ezra is classified as a lesser but good servant of Zasarif. Which creates conflict between the two churches even though as a whole both agree in doing good. Hala though, due to the similarities between Hala and Hilabazlik has been classified as another name for Hilabazlik. hence why the Halans are strongly persecuted in Vaasa.

Kantora is the seat of the church, which has evolved into an organized religion with several ranks in their priesthood. The high priest of the Church as a whole is the adviser for the current prince, including giving support to prince Othmar, despite the fact he has broken the cycle. Priests often double as judges in many communities.

As for the darklord, perhaps the high priest himself?

[herkles]

As I plan to run a ravenloft game, and using what works for me and my freinds. I thought I would mention my changes as once again I need some help.

The main location of this game shall be Mordent, though I am renaming it Gavony; mainly as I like that name better. The other change is that it is a kingdom, though like the haunted houses of the land. The kingdom of Gavony is old, ancient, and in obvious decay. It does have a noble history in that the kings 'claim' descended from Emperor Leon of Dementlieu. But that was ages ago, and it has faded into decay by the current era. Beyond that though, the domain is relatively the same.

I am looking for some renames for Richemlot and Dementlieu as well, but I have yet to settle on one, so some assistance here is welcome. But that is a minor thing, which I can find something for; the campaign is not really going to be heavily dealing with those domains.

The other main domain in this campaign will be my replacement for Verbek and Valachan. I do not yet have a name for it. Geography wise it largely has the ancient forest feel of Verbek. This will be the main geography for the whole domain for the most part. Clearings for isolated towns, as well as the coast will be the main difference. Though most of the details I am working out right now. I am hoping to get more of the domain worked out; as I do so i shall post it here for others of the forum to provide suggestions, feedback and comments.

[Cam]

To rename domains, I would think about what kinds of similarities to real-world cultures you are after for each domain. So for example, if Dementlieu is still going to be French-inspired in your campaign, and if the language spoken there is still going to be reminiscent of French, then I would give it a French-sounding name. If no great French-sounding names jump to mind right away, you could look at maps of real-world France to find obscure place names that you could borrow. If you pick domain names that convey other meanings, so much the better and so much more memorable -- e.g., dement + lieu = Dementlieu -- but that is certainly not necessary, and most of the place names in Ravenloft don't have special meanings.

I feel like a werewolf is a natural darklord for your Verbrek/Valachan forest realm. Is that the direction you're heading?

[herkles]

To rename domains, I would think about what kinds of similarities to real-world cultures you are after for each domain. So for example, if Dementlieu is still going to be French-inspired in your campaign, and if the language spoken there is still going to be reminiscent of French, then I would give it a French-sounding name. If no great French-sounding names jump to mind right away, you could look at maps of real-world France to find obscure place names that you could borrow. If you pick domain names that convey other meanings, so much the better and so much more memorable -- e.g., dement + lieu = Dementlieu -- but that is certainly not necessary, and most of the place names in Ravenloft don't have special meanings.

Yea, that is what I am doing. Just have yet to settle on something good but I am sure that I will find something.

I feel like a werewolf is a natural darklord for your Verbrek/Valachan forest realm. Is that the direction you're heading?

Defently. The idea of this domain is to play up the concept of were-wolves being half man(civilization) and half-beast(wilderness). The main issue with Verbrek is that it dos not really seem to me, to do the Civilized part of the werewolf in the land. You feel the wolf part but not the man part in the land. There are all the werewolves, but beyond that there is little to do there I have felt.

This realm, named Vistula, I am trying to play into both aspects. This is also the reason I chose Lithuania, as well as other slavic/baltic areas of eastern Europe for inspiration. As in the middle ages, Lithuania had the thought of being this dark, foreboding land. On the other hand this land had its own culture and civilization.

I am also working on the local people having their own religion; the gaz IV says that they follow Hala as well as the wolf-god. I am using the wolf god as a god, like how it is written save he will just be one of a number of gods in a pantheon. Not sure if Hala would be a goddess or not in this new faith.

[Hazgarn]

I was playing with ideas for an altered Valachan not too long ago. It shared several characteristics with the Wildlands in that the domain had a tendency to erode construction, rust equipment, and awaken animals...with the added bonus of causing humanoid characters to slowly take on animalistic traits.

My darklord was sort of a cross between von Kharkov and King Crocodile with a little bit of the fairytale Big Bad Wolf thrown in: a gigantic wolf that hates humans for all the reasons the Croc hates humans, but at the same time having a fascination with them. Every now and then he finds himself captivated by a human female from one of the villages in the narrow region in which the degrading effects of the domain were not felt (shielded by an ancient, and perpetually decaying wall). He would bring her into the wilderness and hold her prisoner, though all the while trying to gain her trust. Eventually he either becomes frustrated by her cowering, or if successful his predatory instincts become increasingly difficult for him to ignore. At this point he kills and devours her, and goes back to utterly hating humans again.

[Cam]

That's awesome, Hazgarn. I could also see rumors about that Darklord's existence fueling the legends about/belief in Grandfather Wolf and the other Grandfather animals from the false history of the southern Core.

[herkles]

Neat Idea, while not necessarly what I will use for my darklord. as another mystery and monster to deal with this guy sounds fun and horrible.

[The Giamarga]

The shadow rift exists as the shadow forest. It is the same general area but a giant creepy forest. Tall trees that peirce the sky and block out all light and strange feyish things live there. The Shadow forest is why everyone bordering the area tell their kids "don't go into the woods"
...

They were once a confederation of tribes in the past. They were once the Great empire of the Tergs, and take pride in that. But the current Vaasa as a government is similar to canon. When the Terg empire fell into chaos thanks to Strahd it lead to a period of chaos. The 5 great tribes of Vaasa came into an arrangement after a century or two of chaos. Thus as is canon, the 5 great families.As time went on the tribes evolved into noble houses. The country itself evolving from its tribal past into a more feudal society. This cycle of families rotating power worked for a while, but as time went on more and more princes saw themselves as being able to be a permanent king.

Love this. Especially the Terg.

Which ruleset do you use?

[The Giamarga]

I was playing with ideas for an altered Valachan not too long ago. It shared several characteristics with the Wildlands in that the domain had a tendency to erode construction, rust equipment, and awaken animals...with the added bonus of causing humanoid characters to slowly take on animalistic traits.

My darklord was sort of a cross between von Kharkov and King Crocodile with a little bit of the fairytale Big Bad Wolf thrown in: a gigantic wolf that hates humans for all the reasons the Croc hates humans, but at the same time having a fascination with them. Every now and then he finds himself captivated by a human female from one of the villages in the narrow region in which the degrading effects of the domain were not felt (shielded by an ancient, and perpetually decaying wall). He would bring her into the wilderness and hold her prisoner, though all the while trying to gain her trust. Eventually he either becomes frustrated by her cowering, or if successful his predatory instincts become increasingly difficult for him to ignore. At this point he kills and devours her, and goes back to utterly hating humans again.

Indeed this is awesome. You could easily put in more fairytale stuff in such a domain, such as Tales of the Margreve by Kobold Press or AAW's Snow White part 1 and 2.

[HuManBing]

The animalistic darklord juxtaposed against humanity/civilization seems to be very closely related to the theme of Princess Mononoke - it could be worthwhile to watch that movie to mine it for ideas.