ravenloftian demi & para-elementals?

[High Priest Mikhal]

I'm not so sure about quasi-elementals (where the elemental planes touch on the Negative and Positive Energy Planes) working as dread elementals. Positive para-elementals are beings of as much positive energy as elemental matter and might not be susceptible to corruption. Negative para-elementals are often destructive enough that they don't really need dread elemental status to be horrors in their own right.

I don't think being powered by positive energy would make them any less susceptible to corruption - so are the ancient dead and, for that matter, humans. Positive energy isn't good, it's just positive.

Didn't Mangrum himself say the idea of ancients being powered by positive energy was a typo that ran wild and ancients, like all undead, are powered by negative energy? Otherwise I see your point.

Actually, I'm thinking about this the wrong way. Instead of combining two "dread" elements, the two normal elements would be combined first and then corrupted to a "dread" version.

So you'd have to come up with a "dread" version of smoke, ice, magma, and "ooze" (mud).

Technically ooze is as much acid as mud. An elemental of acid and dissolved remains...

[Mortavius]

It was Joel who pointed that out: "For your info, in the otherwise uninteresting Slayers Guide to the Undead, Gygax correct this historical mistake and said the mummies energy is from the negative plane, as it is for all other undead. "

Mangrum then said: "Were I rewriting the Ravenloft core books now, ancient dead and mummies would both exist -- the former being deathless and the latter undead.

The twist on deathless in Ravenloft is that, in other words, the souls of the deathless are free to move on to their deserved afterlives (presumably in the Upper Planes), returning to their bodies only when needed. In Ravenloft, their souls have nowhere to go, so they merely "slumber" in oblivion.

The ancient dead of Ravenloft aren't inherently evil (unlike the undead) -- they just come by it naturally via their unnatural connection to a mortal existance and the denial of the promised afterlife."


I know one of the more recent versions of D&D (I think it was 4E but it might have been 3.5) actually went back to the idea of Mummies being powered by negative energy, like all other undead. Personally, I like this. It may work to have the Deathless powered by positive energy, but I would make them exceptions to the point of each one being unique in my games.

I think the question with your elementals is this: What are you trying to gain? You haven't really explained what you're trying to do, Jules. By that, I mean, why do you need ravenloft para & quasi elementals? What do they have that a standard elemental cannot provide? If you explain that, perhaps we can help you figure out what you're looking for, or a way of making it work.

[Rotipher of the FoS]

What do dread elementals do anyways? I haven't ever really used one in my campaigns so kind of a weird question i guess. I could see Ash being a ravenloft elemental or smoke...

Initially they didn't really "do" anything much, as they weren't actually a continuous presence in the Land: they were just what happens when a spellcaster tries to conjure up a regular elemental, and screws up the process badly. When that happened, IIRC the elemental is uncontrolled and trashes everything in sight, starting with its summoner. It's only after such beings became a standard part of the roster of Ravenloft-specific monsters that writers started placing them in adventures as threats, having Mist elementals creeping around beyond the Misty Borders, etc.

[High Priest Mikhal]

What do dread elementals do anyways? I haven't ever really used one in my campaigns so kind of a weird question i guess. I could see Ash being a ravenloft elemental or smoke...

Think of dread elementals as corruptions of the natural order. Air is the Mists given life, earth is the hungry dirt of the grave that consumes the dead, pyre is the consuming fire of a funeral pyre let loose, and water is blood given dread purpose to cause death instead of sustain life.

[Chaot]

To take a page from some pseudoscience, I would look to things like aether, ectoplasm, orgone or miasma for inspiration.

[jules]

what would there attacks be tho?

[High Priest Mikhal]

It was Joel who pointed that out: "For your info, in the otherwise uninteresting Slayers Guide to the Undead, Gygax correct this historical mistake and said the mummies energy is from the negative plane, as it is for all other undead."

Mangrum then said: "Were I rewriting the Ravenloft core books now, ancient dead and mummies would both exist -- the former being deathless and the latter undead.

I just noticed this. That's what happens when I can't get my meds (medical insurance = legal racketeering). Thanks for the correction.

[MichaelTumey]

I'm not so sure about quasi-elementals (where the elemental planes touch on the Negative and Positive Energy Planes) working as dread elementals. Positive para-elementals are beings of as much positive energy as elemental matter and might not be susceptible to corruption. Negative para-elementals are often destructive enough that they don't really need dread elemental status to be horrors in their own right.

Ash, dust, salt, and vacuum para-elementals would already be infused with negative energy, so they might not need any further modification. If you think about it, each of those para-elements is already pretty creepy. Ashes and dust are associated with death, salt can represent thirst (and I believe salt para-elementals have some sort of dehydration power) and vacuum is invisible (and silent) yet at the same time almost instantly fatal.

Those are the negative quasi-elements. There are versions presented in Libris Mortis, albeit as undead elementals (how does that work?).

As Ryan Naylor said... positive energy plane is not necessarily a place of good. Mummies, at least in 1e/2e were powered by the positive energy plane. I know that healing is associated with positive energy, and undead things are associated with negative energy. That said, neither energy element has an alignment and if they did, I doubt either would be considered "good". A lot of the discussion in this thread seems to dance around with the concept of positive energy, being 'good' - its not the case, and never was.

[High Priest Mikhal]

As Ryan Naylor said... positive energy plane is not necessarily a place of good. Mummies, at least in 1e/2e were powered by the positive energy plane. I know that healing is associated with positive energy, and undead things are associated with negative energy. That said, neither energy element has an alignment and if they did, I doubt either would be considered "good". A lot of the discussion in this thread seems to dance around with the concept of positive energy, being 'good' - its not the case, and never was.

Most of us already know the energy planes are amoral. The uses of such are what determine good and evil. What I meant was I just don't see positive quasi-elementals as being made into dread elementals. I'm being literal here; I, myself, me, that's it. If anyone can come up with dread versions of lightning, mineral, radiance, and steam, I wouldn't argue. I just can't see how one would do that (okay, steam as a scalding elemental I can see).

[MichaelTumey]

Ah, I understand now. Yeah, you're right I don't see a way to imply evil intent with geological/elemental processes/reactions. Just because Brilliance could infer "blinding light" (or some better descriptor), Mineral could be "crystallization" the forced conversion of all matter to crystal form, or as you suggest Steam be equivalent to "scalding", despite the obvious detrimental effects to living things - these chemical reaction don't necessarily imply evil intent, so do not really equal 'dread', at least not well. I get the intellectual exercise in trying solve this problem, but I guess I've never considered a need to 'Ravenloftize' every plane of existence. To me Ravenloft is one plane and an associated set of border planes, but not intended to represent all the planes. You want it in your game though, I get it.

[Alastor]

Ah, I understand now. Yeah, you're right I don't see a way to imply evil intent with geological/elemental processes/reactions.

If you look at the existing dread elementals, it doesn't seem that the associated elements are necessarily evil, even if the elementals themselves happen to be. Two (grave and pyre) are associated with funerary practices, one (blood) has a variety of associations with both life and death, and the last (mist) is associated with the Demiplane itself. With the exception of the Mists, these things are not actually malevolent in their natural state,although they make people uncormfortable. The major connecting theme seems to be a connection with death. Positive energy is explicitly associated with life, so it seems paradoxical to overlay death imagery on an already life-charged element.

[MichaelTumey]

Ah, I understand now. Yeah, you're right I don't see a way to imply evil intent with geological/elemental processes/reactions.

If you look at the existing dread elementals, it doesn't seem that the associated elements are necessarily evil, even if the elementals themselves happen to be. Two (grave and pyre) are associated with funerary practices, one (blood) has a variety of associations with both life and death, and the last (mist) is associated with the Demiplane itself. With the exception of the Mists, these things are not actually malevolent in their natural state,although they make people uncormfortable. The major connecting theme seems to be a connection with death. Positive energy is explicitly associated with life, so it seems paradoxical to overlay death imagery on an already life-charged element.

I am well aware of blood, pyre, grave and mist elementals - I have played Ravenloft since 1e. That's why I was offering the consideration of Mineral = Crystallization, as some darker means of relating to minerals. But crystallization doesn't carry the 'dread' concept like a blood elemental does. I can agree that positive is usually associated with life (except that positive energy is what is need for Ancient Dead...), but dread doesn't have to mean "undead". Living evil things can be just as nasty as dead evil things. I don't think there's a need to attribute undeath to energy elements, just some form of measureable evil.

[Alastor]

I can agree that positive is usually associated with life (except that positive energy is what is need for Ancient Dead...), but dread doesn't have to mean "undead". Living evil things can be just as nasty as dead evil things. I don't think there's a need to attribute undeath to energy elements, just some form of measureable evil.

This is a good point; I was suggesting that blood (for example) doesn't seem to inherently be an evil substance, but you are right that just because a connection with death was present in some of the original dread elements doesn't mean future dread elements need the same link. Any suitably sinister variant of the element(s) in question could work.
P.S. I didn't mean to imply anyone here was unaware of the original dread elements, just to make the list clearer. Sorry for any offense given.

[jules]

I can agree that positive is usually associated with life (except that positive energy is what is need for Ancient Dead...), but dread doesn't have to mean "undead". Living evil things can be just as nasty as dead evil things. I don't think there's a need to attribute undeath to energy elements, just some form of measureable evil.

This is a good point; I was suggesting that blood (for example) doesn't seem to inherently be an evil substance, but you are right that just because a connection with death was present in some of the original dread elements doesn't mean future dread elements need the same link. Any suitably sinister variant of the element(s) in question could work.
P.S. I didn't mean to imply anyone here was unaware of the original dread elements, just to make the list clearer. Sorry for any offense given.

None taken

[High Priest Mikhal]

Ah, I understand now. Yeah, you're right I don't see a way to imply evil intent with geological/elemental processes/reactions. Just because Brilliance could infer "blinding light" (or some better descriptor), Mineral could be "crystallization" the forced conversion of all matter to crystal form, or as you suggest Steam be equivalent to "scalding", despite the obvious detrimental effects to living things - these chemical reaction don't necessarily imply evil intent, so do not really equal 'dread', at least not well. I get the intellectual exercise in trying solve this problem, but I guess I've never considered a need to 'Ravenloftize' every plane of existence. To me Ravenloft is one plane and an associated set of border planes, but not intended to represent all the planes. You want it in your game though, I get it.

Truthfully, I don't bother with it myself. The original dread elementals I can see, as the classic elements are part and parcel of many Conjuration spells and are most likely to need some dark conversion. But the para- and quasi-elements are pretty rarified even in D&D (outside Planescape and maybe Dark Sun's erroneous interpretations of three para-elements). If a DM wants to make dread versions more power to them. But that's a headache I'd as soon just ignore or rule that an attempt to summon para-elementals just results in a hideous amalgam of the two dread elements and attempts to summon quasi-elements don't result in any change besides the Mists descriptor and a NE alignment--or just don't work at all.