I'm sure Arab mythos has more than genies but the fact remains the vast majority of the D&D monsters are European derived or totally made up. Ghosts are common in virtually all human cultures I can think of. Death is the common lot of humanity after all. In a sense demons are too if you consider demons being basically otherworldly spirits of evil. Evil behavior is also common across all human cultures as well , sad to say.
Frankly I don't have the money to buy every rulebook out there. There are scores if not hundreds of them out there, you know . I did actually look through the MM and those were the pages. Two monsters in over 100 pages is around 2%. Denizens of Dread it has 4 of them in the first 100 pages are either not totally made up or Non-European. In short you have a very short list of non-European monsters to choose from, an even shorter one if you count just Arabic ones. You would have just one (ghoul) in Denizens of Dread in the first hundred pages and none in the first hundred pages of the MM.
I only gave two examples off the top of my head, there's a lot more than that. They made an entire D&D Monstrous Compendium full of Arabic monsters back in the 2nd edition days, with over 60 creatures like the Rom, Great Ghul, werehyena, Ammut, and a special golem based on the Brass Man from "Arabian Nights." They've had articles in Dragon magazine providing unique Arabic monsters such as the Asag, Humbaba, and Simurgh.
And of course there's always the option of making new monsters if you can't find something in the books that you need.
I encourage you to expand your horizons a bit and think outside the European box. Europe is already well-represented in Ravenloft and really doesn't need more exposure. Arabian and other Middle-Eastern cultures, on the other hand, are sorely under-represented in Ravenloft.
Bluebomber4evr: The Justice, not you, since 2002.
Ravenloft: Prisoners of the Mist Persistent World for Neverwinter Nights: www.nwnravenloft.com
Bluebomber4evr wrote:I'm not trying to be belligerent, honestly. I'm sorry if it came off that way, but honestly I'm a little baffled that I'm being interpreted that way
These are the specific bits that (to me, at least) came off as unnecessarily harsh:
Bluebomber4evr wrote:Well you added the homebrew tags this time, at least.
Bluebomber4evr wrote:Satyrs are inappropriate...
Bluebomber4evr wrote:Do yourself a favor...
I can't speak for Zilfer (and another member who contacted me privately) as to which parts hit them, but obviously something was bad enough that they spoke up about it.
The difference between contructive criticism ("here's how I think we can make these ideas fit the source better") and attack ("your ideas are wrong and no good") is all in the presentation sometimes. I don't know if brilliantlight took it the same way we did, but please just watch your tone.
I'll concede on the first example, it was bad form of me to say that, and I apologize.
I stand by the second one, the creature would be appropriate in a Greek domain, and inappropriate in. Middle-East domain. That's not being harsh or insulting, merely a statement of fact.
I meant no ill will on the third one, as I really do feel he'd benefit and improve if he read that stuff, but I can see how it could be taken the wrong way. Sorry.
Bluebomber4evr: The Justice, not you, since 2002.
Ravenloft: Prisoners of the Mist Persistent World for Neverwinter Nights: www.nwnravenloft.com
I'm sure Arab mythos has more than genies but the fact remains the vast majority of the D&D monsters are European derived or totally made up. Ghosts are common in virtually all human cultures I can think of. Death is the common lot of humanity after all. In a sense demons are too if you consider demons being basically otherworldly spirits of evil. Evil behavior is also common across all human cultures as well , sad to say.
Frankly I don't have the money to buy every rulebook out there. There are scores if not hundreds of them out there, you know . I did actually look through the MM and those were the pages. Two monsters in over 100 pages is around 2%. Denizens of Dread it has 4 of them in the first 100 pages are either not totally made up or Non-European. In short you have a very short list of non-European monsters to choose from, an even shorter one if you count just Arabic ones. You would have just one (ghoul) in Denizens of Dread in the first hundred pages and none in the first hundred pages of the MM.
I only gave two examples off the top of my head, there's a lot more than that. They made an entire D&D Monstrous Compendium full of Arabic monsters back in the 2nd edition days, with over 60 creatures like the Rom, Great Ghul, werehyena, Ammut, and a special golem based on the Brass Man from "Arabian Nights." They've had articles in Dragon magazine providing unique Arabic monsters such as the Asag, Humbaba, and Simurgh.
And of course there's always the option of making new monsters if you can't find something in the books that you need.
I encourage you to expand your horizons a bit and think outside the European box. Europe is already well-represented in Ravenloft and really doesn't need more exposure. Arabian and other Middle-Eastern cultures, on the other hand, are sorely under-represented in Ravenloft.
You going to buy all that for me? I don't have unlimited resources and I sure am not going to go on a buying spree for a Wiki article. Even if I did the vast majority of people wouldn't know what I was talking about if I picked something from some obscure rulebook or Dragon article. 60 creatures is a drop in the bucket compared to the literally thousands of monsters that make up five monster manuals and the various source books of the various lines that make up the D&D verse such as Ravenloft, Dark Sun, Forgotten Realms, Dragonlance, Oerth and others.
Clarification: the homebrew tags were added by me in describing the origins of Malbus as a warmongering efreeti genie as per the Mordent Cartographic Society version of him. I've also added the netbook canon information from Ryan Naylor's version of Malbus from his "Children of the Night: Darklords" netbook.
Bluebomber4evr wrote:I stand by the second one, the creature would be appropriate in a Greek domain, and inappropriate in. Middle-East domain. That's not being harsh or insulting, merely a statement of fact.
Again, it's all in the presentation. Stating your opinion (one that I agree with, mind you!) as fact, without allowing for alternate opinions, comes off as harsh, particularly when the opinion in question amounts to "what you did there, I think it's wrong."
I would also say that a Satyr doesn't seem to fit in a Middle-East inspired domain. But rather than pronounce it as definitively inappropriate, I'd start by asking why it's there, and if there's not a better fit that could be used. Maybe there's a reason for the deliberate departure. (For example, I had my reasons for putting a Roc in my Demise writeup, even if it's a Persian-inspired monster and not Greek like medusas are. And Ravenloft has a long tradition of mashing things up, like Vampires (Eastern Europe) and Dwarves (Scandinavia), for example, coming together to make Dwarven Vampires.) Maybe there isn't a good reason. But opening the discussion with the equivalent of "this is no good" is not how we'd like to do things around here.
With that said, though, I do think there are plenty of more suitable creatures that Malbus could be, and you don't need a whole lot of D&D books to find them. A spin through wikipedia should narrow things down, and whatever the creature you choose is, I bet it's got a D&D version somewhere out there. If you don't have the book, either wait for someone who does to add the stats, or make something up. Al Qadim is a thing that exists. It wasn't hugely popular, but it has its fans, and it would be a good source to draw from for this domain, but since it's based in real world myth, you might not need the Al Qadim books to do so.
But with that said, you're at a disadvantage working on this particular domain if you haven't read the story in Tales of Ravenloft, since that's literally the only source on it. Anything you write is going to be judged with that story in mind by anyone who has read it. If you don't have that book (and it's well worth getting regardless) you have to be prepared to defer, if needed, to those who cite it.
"We're realistic heroes. We're not here to save the world, just nudge the world into a better place."
The 2e Al-Qadim monsters have been converted to 3e for free on the Al-Qadim fansite I linked to earlier and on ENWorld. Completely legal and at no cost to you. I'll throw up some links to specific conversions when I get home.
As for the number, 60 monsters is more than enough for a single domain. You could narrow it down to 10 and it would still be plenty. Picking a few monsters that are representative for the culture would make it stand out and make it more appealing.
Bluebomber4evr: The Justice, not you, since 2002.
Ravenloft: Prisoners of the Mist Persistent World for Neverwinter Nights: www.nwnravenloft.com
Bluebomber4evr wrote:I stand by the second one, the creature would be appropriate in a Greek domain, and inappropriate in. Middle-East domain. That's not being harsh or insulting, merely a statement of fact.
Again, it's all in the presentation. Stating your opinion (one that I agree with, mind you!) as fact, without allowing for alternate opinions, comes off as harsh, particularly when the opinion in question amounts to "what you did there, I think it's wrong."
I would also say that a Satyr doesn't seem to fit in a Middle-East inspired domain. But rather than pronounce it as definitively inappropriate, I'd start by asking why it's there, and if there's not a better fit that could be used. Maybe there's a reason for the deliberate departure. (For example, I had my reasons for putting a Roc in my Demise writeup, even if it's a Persian-inspired monster and not Greek like medusas are. And Ravenloft has a long tradition of mashing things up, like Vampires (Eastern Europe) and Dwarves (Scandinavia), for example, coming together to make Dwarven Vampires.) Maybe there isn't a good reason. But opening the discussion with the equivalent of "this is no good" is not how we'd like to do things around here.
With that said, though, I do think there are plenty of more suitable creatures that Malbus could be, and you don't need a whole lot of D&D books to find them. A spin through wikipedia should narrow things down, and whatever the creature you choose is, I bet it's got a D&D version somewhere out there. If you don't have the book, either wait for someone who does to add the stats, or make something up. Al Qadim is a thing that exists. It wasn't hugely popular, but it has its fans, and it would be a good source to draw from for this domain, but since it's based in real world myth, you might not need the Al Qadim books to do so.
But with that said, you're at a disadvantage working on this particular domain if you haven't read the story in Tales of Ravenloft, since that's literally the only source on it. Anything you write is going to be judged with that story in mind by anyone who has read it. If you don't have that book (and it's well worth getting regardless) you have to be prepared to defer, if needed, to those who cite it.
As you said Ravenloft (and virtually every other D&D line out there) is a mash up but to large degree Eurocentric as the great majority of the players are either in the Americas or Europe. Neither TSR Hobbies or WOTC are or were racist outfits out to impose European views on the world but private companies out to make a buck and cater to their customer base. I can count on anyone who plays D&D knows what a Satyr is but I can't count them knowing what an obscure monster out of Arabia (For Europeans) is. About the only things I can count on them knowing from Arabian mythos is genies and ghouls.
There is little that shows that the Dark Powers care much about what kind of cultures are out there. Demonic entities are not uniquely European but in almost all mythos. Evil is common world wide and otherworldly spirits being out there to tempt humans to ruin is hardly a solely European concept. Also a conquering evil devotee of Bel is hardly limited to conquering pseudo-European countries. It is quite possible he was in the midst of conquering a pseudo-Arabic one when the Dark Powers claimed him. It isn't like Europe never conquered parts of the ME or vice versa. In real life the Spanish conquered the last bit of Islamic territory in the Iberian Peninsula the same year Europe discovered America.
I have read the book in question which is why I wrote it. I wouldn't have known that the ruler of the Wounded City was an ex-slave or that he was chopped up by swords or that he reforms occasionally to pass judgment if I didn't read it.
Last edited by brilliantlight on Wed Mar 18, 2015 4:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Bluebomber4evr wrote:The 2e Al-Qadim monsters have been converted to 3e for free on the Al-Qadim fansite I linked to earlier and on ENWorld. Completely legal and at no cost to you. I'll throw up some links to specific conversions when I get home.
As for the number, 60 monsters is more than enough for a single domain. You could narrow it down to 10 and it would still be plenty. Picking a few monsters that are representative for the culture would make it stand out and make it more appealing.
I'll look at it. If I knew they were free I would have looked at it earlier. You didn't mention that before.
Here are some creatures in Monster Manual (3.5) that are of non-European and not purely fabricated origins:
Angel (Astral deva)
Couatl
Demon (Babau)
Demon (Marilith)
Demon (Quasit)
Dragons, metallic- particularly the gold dragon (these are based more on the East Asian conception of dragons)
Dragon Turtle
Genie (all)
Gibbering Mouther (according to here: http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread ... ost5890296 )
Lamassu
Lycanthrope (werefox)
Lycanthrope (weretiger)
Manticore
Mummy
Naga
Ogre mage
Rakshasa
Roc
Sphinx (androsphinx, criosphinx)
Vargouille
Zombie
The Lesser Evil wrote:Here are some creatures in Monster Manual (3.5) that are of non-European and not purely fabricated origins:
Angel (Astral deva)
Couatl
Demon (Babau)
Demon (Marilith)
Demon (Quasit)
Dragons, metallic- particularly the gold dragon (these are based more on the East Asian conception of dragons)
Dragon Turtle
Genie (all)
Gibbering Mouther (according to here: http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread ... ost5890296 )
Lamassu
Lycanthrope (werefox)
Lycanthrope (weretiger)
Manticore
Mummy
Naga
Ogre mage
Rakshasa
Roc
Sphinx (androsphinx, criosphinx)
Vargouille
Zombie
More varied than I thought, in any case mostly European. You would expect that from a game that originated in Lake Geneva, WI which is a pretty resort town . If the game originated in Cairo, Egypt it would be based mostly on Egyptian/Middle Eastern myth. If it originated in New Delhi, India it would be mostly Indian myth if Tokyo, Japan it would be Far Eastern etc. All cultures have a large body of myth and folklore to choose from, I certainly don't want to imply that isn't the case.
You have a good point about the origins of D&D and player familiarity, but from early on, TSR exhausted much of what they could adapt from Euro-centric myth and branched out. Oriental Adventures, Deities and Demigods... a lot of these creatures aren't that foreign to long-time players. And even if they are, in this day and age, quickly looking up something you don't recognize is pretty easy. Personally, I've learned a LOT from D&D over the years, and that's one of the things I like best about it. What's a glaive-guisarme? What's a Ki-rin? etc...
It seems to me that a lot of the draw of non-european domains is discovering these lesser-known creatures. Arijani is a rakshasa, not a demon or were-beast. There are hopping vampires in Rokushima. Ankhtepot is a mummy, not a zombie etc. I would expect Al Kathos to the place where you'd find mostly arabic-inspired monsters, with the Darklord being a prime opportunity to use one. Really, it doesn't have to change the story much. It's just semantics. You can keep the personality, curse, everything. Folklore being folklore wherever you go, I'd be surprised if there isn't something satyr-like and incubus-like in the arabic pantheon of critters.
(Apologies if I implied you hadn't read the story in Tales. Honestly, I haven't had time to read what you've written in depth, or to look at the edits and see who wrote what. I was merely saying IF you haven't read it, you should. But you have, so you're good on that point.)
"We're realistic heroes. We're not here to save the world, just nudge the world into a better place."
Okay, here's the list of Al-Qadim monsters suitable for the Ravenloft setting. ENWorld had a bunch of 3rd edition conversions on their Creature Catalogue site, but it's apparently down right now. I was able to find the 2nd edition stats, however.
This will not only provide 3e stats of some of the creatures, but will give an overview of the Al-Qadim setting.
Amiq Rasol: An undead corsair (a type of pirate) that haunts the remote island or sea where they died. http://www.lomion.de/cmm/amiqraso.php (2e stats)
Ammut: The legendary witness at the judging of the dead, from Ancient Egyptian mythology. Looks like a humanoid with a mix of crocodile, lion and hippopotamus features. Eats the spirits of the evil and the damned. http://www.al-qadim.com/perils/Ammut.html (both 2e and 3e stats)
3e stats:
VIEW CONTENT:
Ammut
Large Magical Beast
Hit Dice: 6d10 + 18 (51 hit points)
Initiative: +1 (Dex)
Speed: 20 ft, Swim 30, Burrow 10
AC: 17 (-1 size, +1 Dex, +7 natural)
Attacks: Bite +10 melee and 2 Claws +5 melee
Damage: Bite 2d6+5; Claw 2d4 +2
Face/Reach: 5 ft by 10 ft/ 5 ft
Special Attacks: Swallow Whole, Roar, Ghost Touch
Special Qualities: Dark Vision 60 ft, Low-light Vision, Scent, Hama Sight
Saves: Fort +8, Ref +6, Will +2
Abilities: Str 20, Dex 13, Con 17 , Int 10, Wis 13, Cha 14
Skills: Climb +14, Move Silently +10, Intimidate +4
Feats: Alertness
Climate/Terrain: Any underground
Organization: Solitary, Clan (1d12), or Settlement (2d20)
Challenge Rating: 4
Treasure: Standard
Alignment: Usually Neutral Evil
Advancement: 7-15 HD (Huge); 16-18 HD (Gargantuan)
The legendary witness at the judging of the dead, the ammut consume the damned. An ammut resembles a cross between a crocodile, a lioness, and a hippopotamus in mannish form. They have the tail and scaly legs of a crocodile, the tubby belly and thick neck of a hippo, and the sleek arms and head of a humanoid lioness. They are fat, bloated animals, and they are completely oblivious to their surroundings when feeding on wicked souls. Few creatures hunt the ammut because their flesh is oily and has the taint of decay about it.
A reclusive race, the ammut generally avoid living critters. They settle in caverns, fissures, and tunnels under desert oasis and near underground rivers. They also congregate in or near evil cities and necropoli where the spirits they pursue are common. They often burrow into tombs and burial grounds. The females are the hereditary rulers among the ammut, and their word is usually obeyed. Rulership is as much a function of size and strength as wisdom and cunning (the ruling calipha of an ammut settlement is usually a 16 to 18 HD gargantuan female); revolts and power struggles over rich feeding grounds are common. Females generally force male ammut to do most of the burrowing for new hunting grounds and breeding sites.
Ammut eat the spirits of the evil and the damned. The spirit form or hama of wicked people is always either a week flier (such as a rooster or parrot) or completely unable to fly (like an emu or a bird with clipped feathers). Ammut can eat corporeal creatures but they gain no nourishment from them, so they tend to just play with their kills. They often kill evil men to provide themselves with food (when the evil spirit is released).
Combat
An ammut attacks with tooth and nail.
Swallow Whole (Ex): If an ammut hits with a critical bite attack, their gaping jaws may unhinge, allowing them to swallow creatures one size or more smaller than themselves (Ammut with more than 10 hit dice often take the Improved Critical (bite) feat). The process is slow and requires 1d4 rounds to complete. During this time, the creature being swallowed is slowly forced into the ammut's gullet with its jaws and hands. Creatures being swallowed may attack (-4 penalty to attack bonus, but all hits are considered critical) with small piercing weapons during this process.
Roar (Su): Ammut can roar deafeningly once every ten rounds. All creatures within 20' must make a Fort save (DC 16) or be deafened for 1d10 rounds. This is equivalent to a Full Attack Action. The roaring of ammuts can be heard for miles underground, giving rise to legends of angry earth spirits and passageways to the land of the dead. The ammut roar when mating or when staking out territory, as well as in combat. The ammut seem to enjoy making noise, so sometimes they roar just for the sheer joy of it.
Ghost Touch (Su): Ammut deal damage normally against incorporeal creatures, and an incorporeal creature's 50% chance to avoid damage does not apply to an ammut's attacks. An ammut's attacks on an incorporeal creature are considered to be magical enough to overcome any applicable damage reduction.
Hama Sight (Su): Ammut can detect evil when viewing creatures, and they can see ethereal creatures and objects. This is a constant ability.
Black Cloud of Vengeance: A composite elemental, literally a living, monsoon-like storm, that punishes people who break cultural taboos and customs. http://www.al-qadim.com/perils/Black_Cl ... eance.html (both 2e and 3e stats)
3e stats:
VIEW CONTENT:
Black Cloud of Vengeance
Colossal Aberration (Fire)
Hit Dice: 15d8 + 135 (203 hit points)
Initiative: +1 (Dex)
Speed: Fly 60 (Clumsy)
AC: 23 (-8 size, +1 Dex, +21 natural)
Attacks: Slam +19/+14/+9
Damage: Slam 2d6+16
Face/Reach: 80 ft by 160 ft/ 50 ft
Special Attacks: Fire Rain, Wind
Special Qualities: Dark Vision 60 ft, Fire Immunity, Damage Reduction 15/+3, Sense Impiety
Saves: Fort +14, Ref +6, Will +12
Abilities: Str 43, Dex 13, Con 29, Int 16, Wis 16, Cha 14
Skills: Intimidate +20, Sense Motive +16
Feats: Expertise, Flyby Attack, Improved Trip
Climate/Terrain: Any Desert
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: 20
Treasure: Standard
Alignment: Usually Chaotic Evil or Chaotic Neutral
Advancement: 16-40 HD (Gargantuan)
These dreadful creatures are incredibly powerful, sentient monsoon-like beings that survive by acts of destruction. They appear as thunderclouds, and can move contrary to the course dictated by the wind if it suits them. Their rolling depths do little to conceal the occasional flares of red lightning; the winds that precede them echo with thunder. Their winds carry particles of soot and ash, darkening the ground and the air as they approach.
Their origins are unknown. They combine the effects of air and water to devastating effect. They have existed since the earliest memories of elven grandfathers. Some believe they are tools of the Loregiver, punishing those who fall from the Law, or they may be free spirits, moving where their whims take them.
Combat
The Black Clouds of Vengeance attack individuals with slam attacks of compressed wind. The clouds most commonly attack cities or large desert encampments, leaving behind only charred husks and windblown scraps. Some clouds are large enough to envelop entire cities, although they never approach cities favored by the enlightened gods (i.e. cities with mosques) or cities frequented by genies. They revel in the ensuing destruction. When a Black Cloud draws near, the wind increases its speed, blowing hot and hard. The sky darkens, and the winds smell of fire and destruction. When it reaches its target (or when it is challenged by a foolhardy hero), it unleashes its full fury.
Fire Rain (Su): One of the deadliest attacks of the Black Clouds are the fiery torrents spewed down out of the clouds. Even after the cloud has moved on, the fires fan up and continue to burn, whipped up and carried by the cloud's winds. Those trapped in one of these blazes suffer fire damage equal to (1/3 HD)d10 (round down) per round exposed to the flame. Example: A 15 HD cloud does 5d10 damage per round. A 30 HD cloud does 10d10 fire damage per round.
Wind (Ex): The winds of a Black Cloud of Vengeance reach a howling pitch, strong enough to level entire buildings. Anyone within the cloud takes (1/3 HD -1)d10 (round down) damage per round from debris (example: 15 HD cloud does 4d10 damage per round. A 30 HD cloud does 9d10 damage per round).
Sense Impiety (Su): Black Clouds of Vengeance seem to know when a city is devoid of gods or genies, and they revel in destroying those cities. Perhaps the clouds fear the powers that the gods and the genies wield. Whatever the reason, the clouds encourage piousness in the people of Zakhara.
Ghost Mount: The undead spirit of a horse that died of mistreatment and has risen from the grave to take vengeance on all who would dare ride them. http://www.lomion.de/cmm/ghosmoun.php (2e stats)
3e stats are in The New Arabian Adventures .pdf, listed above.
Ghul, Great: Like regular ghouls, although these are undead genies with shapeshifting powers. They often have a retinue of ghouls as their servants. http://www.lomion.de/cmm/ghulgrea.php (2e stats)
3e stats are in The New Arabian Adventures .pdf, listed above.
Living Idol: Golem-like creatures that are the remnants of an ancient civilization that no longer exists on Zakhara. http://www.lomion.de/cmm/liviidol.php (2e stats)
3e stats are in The New Arabian Adventures .pdf, listed above.
Rom: A race of subterranean undead giants who disappeared from the surface world long ago and are bitter and vengeful over their fate. http://www.lomion.de/cmm/rom.php
3e stats are in The New Arabian Adventures .pdf, listed above.
Serpent, Winged: Superficially similar to a couatl in appearance, but that is where the similarities end. These winged snakes are simple-minded beasts with an electrical breath weapon. http://www.lomion.de/cmm/serpwing.php (2e stats)
The Lesser Evil wrote:Bluebomber4evr, I get a warning of an unsafe site from my anti-virus when I click on a weblink to that al-qadim.com website.
What browser and anti-virus are you using? I've visited it with Chrome and Firefox, and I use MalwareBytes' Anti-Malware and Microsoft Security Essentials and I experience no issues whatsoever.
I will confirm I clicked on the link and no problems for antivirus. It just looks like an old 2e statblock. (The question is why do i know this?!?!?! XD) I think I'll take a stroll through the crowd sourced domains again.
I don't have unlimited resources and I sure am not going to go on a buying spree for a Wiki article. Even if I did the vast majority of people wouldn't know what I was talking about if I picked something from some obscure rulebook or Dragon article. 60 creatures is a drop in the bucket compared to the literally thousands of monsters that make up five monster manuals and the various source books of the various lines that make up the D&D verse such as Ravenloft, Dark Sun, Forgotten Realms, Dragonlance, Oerth and others.
