Clerics and paladins and moral ambiguity

[divinedragonslayer]

Morality or more specifically moral ambiguity plays a large part in Ravenloft. The line between law and chaos even good and evil is often a fine line which is blurred beyond recognition. Or at least that's what I feel it should be blurred. Even the gods of both outside religions and faiths within Ravenloft fall silent both to laymen and their clerics in my understanding of Ravenloft. That brings me to my question.

I don't know if it's explicitly stated or not, but if I recall correctly the Dark Powers which govern the Demiplane of Dread also supply the divine spells of the realm. My question is do they supply spells based on actual alignment or perceived alignment?

Example: A Tempesti inquisitor who tortures and kills innocent people trying to root out the shadow fey is clearly evil. But by his perception he is saving people from a corrupted menace. By standard rules he channels negative energy. In Ravenloft would you rule he channels positive energy because he is so completely convinced he is good as well as casting 'good' aligned spells?

Example 2: A paladin keeps most of code of conduct. Respecting the law doing good acts and so forth, but because detect good does not work properly he has slain numerous non evil people believing that he was stopping evil. Would he keep his paladinhood?

[alhoon]

Morality or more specifically moral ambiguity plays a large part in Ravenloft.

Actually, Ravenloft is heavily influenced by Gothic Horror. I.e. canonically, there's no moral ambiguity but absolutes. There's absolute wrong and absolute right. In that regard, shades of grey come actually from humanity's inability to perceive the rights-and-wrongs with the clarity of outsiders. The Universe (and the DPs) don't care for your reasons and excuses for doing something any more than an earthquake cares whether your house will tumble on your head or not. The rules are absolute like military orders.

Feel free to add moral ambiguity to your setting since it doesn't always makes a good story to go with "You killed your father, Vlad Drakov that forced himself on your mother and then left? You're as evil as the prince that poisoned his loving father the king to get his place".

The worst in my opinion is the "Your ancestors were evil, as such, their wrongdoings and sins will catch up with you and you'll have to fight the taint in your soul for ever and chances are, you'll lose the battle and this taint will consume you".
Do I follow it? Sometimes yes. I certainly try to tempt PCs that come from evil families more.

Example: A Tempesti inquisitor who tortures and kills innocent people
...

Example 2: A paladin keeps most of code of conduct. Respecting the law doing good acts and so forth, but because detect good does not work properly he has slain numerous non evil people believing that he was stopping evil. Would he keep his paladinhood?

I would say yes to both.

[jamesfirecat]

Example 2: A paladin keeps most of code of conduct. Respecting the law doing good acts and so forth, but because detect good does not work properly he has slain numerous non evil people believing that he was stopping evil. Would he keep his paladinhood?

The more important matter in question number 2 to my eyes is, would the character know if he lost his Paladinhood?

Remember gods don't grant divine powers in Ravenloft the Dark Powers do, and we already have one example of a Paladin who clearly fell from grace, yet the Dark Powers continued to grant her all the normal Paladin spells and abilities (more or less) for whatever reasons they feel like.

[divinedragonslayer]

Alhoon: You are absolutely correct about the morality being absolute. I phrased my questions wrong. Like you said the shades of gray come from mortals applying their own views of morality into situations. As far as I see the only thing that affects families is a familial curse. Sins of the father should stay with the father otherwise to be quite honest it falls into the realm of high fantasy. In Ravenloft people should damn themselves.

I think my question is in high fantasy you do something against your god's alignment and poof your powers are gone. You know you've disappointed your god and need to atone. But would such a clear sign of disobedience be so clearly shown in Ravenloft? That's the core of my question. To be honest if a good aligned cleric or paladin's powers are just turned off like that it makes those classes much harder to slip into evil. And one plot device I really like the idea of using in Ravenloft is The road to Hell is paved with good intentions. It works extremely well in places like Tepest and more importantly since I love the Shadowborn cluster Nidala. But since you said yes to both examples I'm really leaning that way.

Jamesfirecrest: You're right that two is a pretty important question. I'm on the fence hard on this one, but we have two yeses which pushes me towards yes. In the case of Elana Faith-Hold keeping her paladinhood largely intact was the worst torture the Dark Powers could've inflicted on her in my humble opinion. To no longer hear Belenus's voice means that she lives in constant doubt about her own powers. Forced to trudge through life torn between her own zealous nature and the questions of the absence of her god. Combine that with her cognitive dissonance she has to be one of the most suffering dark lords there is. Especially when there is no clear cut enemy to fight.

I guess my biggest question is if there are actually gods or even fragments of gods that exist either communicating with the divine casters or if it's completely silent for the natives as well. Perhaps that matter is less important since the natives are less inclined to take up the mantle of a paladin. For outsider paladins either they've already been corrupted before their entrance into the Demiplane of Dread or they're so stalwart that nothing can corrupt them.

[Dark Angel]

I know the Planescape setting had rules set up that limited and enhanced cleric (and probably paladins too) depending on what plane their god was from and where they were in the multiverse. According to that, the powers from the prime worlds would be potentially diminished (being farther away in the Etheral, I believe). I always considered the spell casting issue to be taken over by the Dark Powers so they have the same abilities, but lose that contact with their god. That kind of unsupervised power can be a real problem when the player acts as they see as right without the negative punishment of their god to keep them in line. Ezra is the only true god in my game and has manifested herself to her worshipers like prime powers tend to. Hala is also a true power, but her faithful are not clerics (but witches and warlocks should be able to be stripped of their powers then, right?). The Dark Powers take care of the rest (Lawgiver, Morninglord, etc).

I had a priest who was in the process of loosing his way when he did something unredeemable and commented that he probably cannot cast spells any more. I said, no you still can. He then doubted that and said that the Morninglord wouldn't grant an evil priest spells. I said, who said any of the spells came from gods?

His look was pretty much .

Regarding your two scenarios:

The Tepestani priest should still receive spells and be treated as evil even tough they are under the guise of doing good (think Spanish Inquisition which killed thousands for the sake of God).

The Paladin without his moral compass shouldn't be killing those he 'feels' aren't good and passes said judgment on them immediately. A proper paladin would then require proof of evil deeds or testimony from reputable sources and still may hand the baddie over to the appropriate officials (if they are deemed proper and just as well). The paladin should receive powers and let them slide farther into the darkness.

[divinedragonslayer]

This is more for NPCs rather than PCs right now, but that's something to chew on. Now I was also considering how the region might affect the paladin's actions too. but you are right. Paladins should not be given that much leeway even as NPCs. Another class custom or from another source would work better.

As for the cleric case that's what I was initially thinking myself. And I'll use either way. In either case about the third or second even powers check depending on the severity of the actions there'd have to be a moral event horizon where the NPC or PC has to make a final choice of either going back to the straight and narrow or having his powers altered drastically.

[jamesfirecat]

I guess my biggest question is if there are actually gods or even fragments of gods that exist either communicating with the divine casters or if it's completely silent for the natives as well. Perhaps that matter is less important since the natives are less inclined to take up the mantle of a paladin. For outsider paladins either they've already been corrupted before their entrance into the Demiplane of Dread or they're so stalwart that nothing can corrupt them.

What follows is all how I read the setting, add as many spoonfuls of salt as needed.

There are no fragments of gods that communicate with anyone in Ravenloft.

If anyone thinks they are talking to a higher power they are talking to the Dark Powers.

That's sort of one of the greatest ironies of Yagno Petrovna's fate. In any other plane what he'd be doing would be crazy, because you know for a fact that if the gods are listening to you or not, they will talk with the people who try to talk to them in the right magical way.

In Ravenloft, that doesn't happen, that's what allows the farce of Zhkata worship to continue, becasue Zhkata interacts with his followers EXACTLY as much (IE not at all other than those that worship them in the right way seem to get magical powers) as those people who are worshiping actual gods like Lawgiver/Bane who clearly does exist in his home plane (or at least used to since I've also heard he died but that's neither here nor there), but isn't allowed to speak/interact with those who worship him in Ravenloft.

You may or may not throw the Wolf God into the mix above, I personally think that Yagno creating a false god is the entire point of his character, where Alfred Timothy remains just as effective a story if he's worshiping a fake god or if he's just semi-misworshipping some kind of Chaotic Neutral wolf god of the hunt like Fenrir/Fenris (yes I know Fenris is not actually a god in Norse mythology but its the best D&D approximation of him unless you want to just say he's a wolf that's bigger than the Torrasque or whatever.)

Also remember the adventure The Awakening, which is entirely based around an undead CE worshipper of Bastet a CG goddess who not only still gets magic spells (from the Dark Powers) but still gets to come back to live eight times because she was a favored of Bastet in life and so Bastet ended up blessing her with nine lives, because the Dark Powers wanted her to.

Also in my opinion it's easier for someone born in Ravenloft to become a paladin and stay that way (till they may end up pissing off the wrong Darklord of course), then someone who is not from it and goes there to stay a Paladin.

Another point of view I have is that just entering Ravenloft should not corrupt anyone... spending time there on the other hand....

You are right (as I see things) in that the lack of gods talking to you is less important if you're a native, if you're from Ravenloft then your interaction with the gods feels natural and it has always been this way, there's no gaping sense of loss where you used to have your deity on a speed dial and now you only get static and magic powers.

[alhoon]

You know you've disappointed your god and need to atone. But would such a clear sign of disobedience be so clearly shown in Ravenloft? That's the core of my question. To be honest if a good aligned cleric or paladin's powers are just turned off like that it makes those classes much harder to slip into evil.

And I phrased my answer wrong. Or rather, I spent too much of it not answering your question.

My opinion is: No, I don't think they should lose their powers. Elena Faithold still has them for starters.
About "good" and "evil" aligned spells, it depends on the edition you use. IIRC "good" descriptor spells are only in 3E. And even in that case, I would still say "a fallen cleric that still thinks he's doing right should have access to them"

I guess my biggest question is if there are actually gods or even fragments of gods that exist either communicating with the divine casters or if it's completely silent for the natives as well.

I would say completely "silent". As in, Dark Powers give the answers and all.

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

There are no fragments of gods that communicate with anyone in Ravenloft.

If anyone thinks they are talking to a higher power they are talking to the Dark Powers.

Well, that's one take. Some people prefer to have the DPs act as a sort of filter between the gods and their worshipers, replacing them only when needed (i.e. when the worshiper drifts far enough that the deity would cut them off.) I think either approach can work, but the trouble with saying that everything comes from the DPs is that what makes Zhakata any more false than any other faith? The whole draw of Yagno is that he is the high priest of a false god. If all RL gods are false, how is he any different than Alfred, or the Praesidius, or the Himmelsk Naeve, etc?

I think any theory of RL gods has to account for a difference between Zhakata and Ezra. Making the Church of Ezra just as false doesn't ring true to me. If the CoE is to Ravenloft as Christianity is to traditional gothic horror, it undercuts things to make it another front for the Dark Powers. Obviously, not every RL player or DM believes Christianity to be true, but that's not what I'm getting at. Gothic fiction takes the existence of the JudeoChristian god as a given, and I think Ravenloft needs the same sort of truth behind Ezra to reflect that. (Personally, I like Ezra as something that exists as part of the Dark Powers, but as sort of the black sheep of their group. Whether she started as a human or as a Dark Power or as an outlander goddess doesn't matter, but she treats the inhabitants of Ravenloft the same way any other deity treats their people, and is a real god in that sense, but the only thing in the demiplane capable of doing that is one of the Dark Powers, so she (reluctantly) takes her place as one of them, whether the others like it or not. But that's just one take, surely. (Heavily influenced by Mangrum's Anchors of Faith netbook article))

[jamesfirecat]

Well, that's one take. Some people prefer to have the DPs act as a sort of filter between the gods and their worshipers, replacing them only when needed (i.e. when the worshiper drifts far enough that the deity would cut them off.) I think either approach can work, but the trouble with saying that everything comes from the DPs is that what makes Zhakata any more false than any other faith? The whole draw of Yagno is that he is the high priest of a false god. If all RL gods are false, how is he any different than Alfred, or the Praesidius, or the Himmelsk Naeve, etc?

I think any theory of RL gods has to account for a difference between Zhakata and Ezra. Making the Church of Ezra just as false doesn't ring true to me. If the CoE is to Ravenloft as Christianity is to traditional gothic horror, it undercuts things to make it another front for the Dark Powers. Obviously, not every RL player or DM believes Christianity to be true, but that's not what I'm getting at. Gothic fiction takes the existence of the JudeoChristian god as a given, and I think Ravenloft needs the same sort of truth behind Ezra to reflect that. (Personally, I like Ezra as something that exists as part of the Dark Powers, but as sort of the black sheep of their group. Whether she started as a human or as a Dark Power or as an outlander goddess doesn't matter, but she treats the inhabitants of Ravenloft the same way any other deity treats their people, and is a real god in that sense, but the only thing in the demiplane capable of doing that is one of the Dark Powers, so she (reluctantly) takes her place as one of them, whether the others like it or not. But that's just one take, surely. (Heavily influenced by Mangrum's Anchors of Faith netbook article))

I can see the argument you are making here/mostly agree with it/ I think I touched on it myself but did not communicate it very clearly.

Yagno's fake god is so essential to his character, but at the same time it should be something unique to him. The absurdity of Zhakata worship looses much of its punch if Zhakata is only just as real as any of the other options.

That's why I suppose if I was going to argue this I'd want to have Ezra or Halal be representations of some other divine being from some other pantheon the way that Lawgiver is to Bane (I think Morninglord is that way too but can't recall what god he connects with) where if you were to have those people leave Ravenloft there would be somebody to hear their prayers but a priest of Zhakata would be powerless outside of Ravenloft.

The problem with this is that as far as I can recall (need to reread this but fairly certain with Ezra) the foundation of these religions has a great deal to do with Ravenloft/they are home grown faiths/it doesn't make sense for them to exists as actual gods outside of Ravenloft.

I'm perfectly fine/can agree with your argument that Ezra might have become some aspect/outgrowth/whatever of the Dark Powers (if I am reading you right and if I'm not I'm sorry), but while I like that in principle, it then rubs up against my earlier contention that if a worshiper of Ezra went to the prime material plain someone would still grant them powers as opposed to the priest of Zhakata, I will openly admit I'm not quite certain how to square that particular circle, but here is my best go at it.

As part of the divine deal that involves most gods not being allowed to interfere in Ravenloft the Dark Powers also won the right to reach out and grant powers to the worshipers of some of Ravenloft's home grown gods (Ezra) to reach out to the other Planes on the off chance that any of their worshipers go there.

For Halal I'd probably argue that her worshipers get power from whatever sort of innate Gaia/lifeforce/whatever that druids do (if I remember how Halal is supposed to work correctly/what her dogma is supposed to be like) even if it ends up being expressed as clerical rather than druidic magic.

Granted I will admit all of the above is nothing more than me patching together a system of rules that while it doesn't directly contradict itself also has no internal logic to WHY it should work this way, but I supposed when dealing with the Dark Powers, a certain amount of "what works best for you?" is bound to happen.

[Dark Angel]

That's why I suppose if I was going to argue this I'd want to have Ezra or Halal be representations of some other divine being from some other pantheon the way that Lawgiver is to Bane (I think Morninglord is that way too but can't recall what god he connects with) where if you were to have those people leave Ravenloft there would be somebody to hear their prayers but a priest of Zhakata would be powerless outside of Ravenloft.

I'm perfectly fine/can agree with your argument that Ezra might have become some aspect/outgrowth/whatever of the Dark Powers (if I am reading you right and if I'm not I'm sorry), but while I like that in principle, it then rubs up against my earlier contention that if a worshiper of Ezra went to the prime material plain someone would still grant them powers as opposed to the priest of Zhakata, I will openly admit I'm not quite certain how to square that particular circle, but here is my best go at it.

The Morninglord is cobbled together from the ancient god Andral from their existence in the Prime World Barovia (either from I, Strahd or Vampire of the Mists, pretty covered in Gaz 1) and the more recent additions are of Lathander from the Realms setting (Vampire of the Mists, Jander Sunstar's deity).

Kind of liking the Ezra as an aspect of the Dark Powers either falling into it or manifesting separately. The one thing Ezra, Lawgiver, Morninglord, etc all have that Zahkata doesn't is some basis. I know that doesn't really help, but bear with me. All the religions have some source they stem from and (usually) come in the form of a Prime World concept adapted to the Misty Realm. Zahkata is made up by the disturbed mind of a lunatic and (given this thread, though a new one should be created) maybe the 'religion' should be knocked down a bit more to show that. A poor comparison would be the census in England that garnered enough votes to instill 'Jedi' as a religion rather than a sanctioned one.

[alhoon]

Well, the priests of Zakata perform miracles in the name of their God, so someone from Ghenna wouldn't know better.

[Ryan Naylor]

Yagno's problem is that he knows on some level that it's just delusion. None of the other churches know/believe that.


Personally, I'd play it that if you think - deep down - you're in good standing, you are. If you're not, or the church hierarchy has got together and excommunicated you, you lose your powers (or get different powers as a heretic). But this is based on the idea that all the Ravenloft religions are made up and the Dark Powers are in charge. If you think the Lathander is fueling the Morninglord's clergy in some way, then I'd go with the normal loss of powers.

[alhoon]

About the excommunication thing, I'll go back to Zakhata: The clerics of Provider still get their spells even if they've been excommunicated.

I find it ... believability stretching actually that the Ghenna people heard their archpriest say "Remember all those teachings and sermons about Zakhata the Provider and destroyer? Well, I was wrong for decades. He's just the destroyer."
OK, when he gives Sermons he charms everyone, but that eventually wears out and some would resist it. Back in 2e that would be about 1/4. Even in 3E it would be some significant portion.

[IrvyneWolfe]

I always thought what set most of the religions of RL apart is that they had some kind of solid basis. The Lawgiver is Bane, the Morning Lord is Jander Sunstar mixed with a mad Outlander's understanding of one of his home faiths. Ezra was an early fevered sighting of Isolde (that's my canon at least). Belenus is a hold over from the druidic faiths of Tepest and Nidala (so Forlorn essentially). Regardless of the actual source their clerics fully believe in their faith.

Zakhata? He's Yagno's imaginary friend and on some level he knows it. The fact that he grants spells is just enough to make him question that, but the lack of direct contact between him and his god, and the confusion and mockery of extra planar creatures summoned to G'Henna are enough to remind him that it's all in his head. However, he's tied up his identity so strongly with this lie that he can't bring himself to let go.