Kargat numbers

[alhoon]

I was thinking about the Kargat. Pre-requiem estimations in the Gaz are "about 200 members", that with the troubles that followed many perished and that Azalin started rebuilding their numbers upon return (which if we go by "1 year IRL is 1 year in Ravenloft" is now 10 years ago). It would be quite reasonable IMO to say that within 2-3 years of his return, Kargat was functioning properly and had the numbers needed.

Now, about those numbers needed... If we go by Darkon as written, with about 120-130K adults, heavily urbanized with half of them living in or very close to cities etc... 200 Kargat are IMO too much. That's on average 1 Kargat/600-650 people. Martira Bay for example would have 15-20 Kargat members plus their unwitting agents and other assets to monitor just 10K people. Kargat is not a government agency; it doesn't have pencil pushers, accountants and administrators. It is 200 field agents (half of them superntural) for 120K-130K people (admitedly some of them supernatural as well).
With that many monsters in charge of the people, I would expect most of the "monster attacks" in Martira Bay to actually be from the Kargat monsters themselves. I doubt there would be enough malcontents to keep General Kazandra plus 7-8 lycantrhopes fed in such a small city.

Also, while cellural, Kargat is a single organization. Martira Bay could have 4-5 Kargat agents to take care of "problems" and if more numbers were needed, they could call in other cells for help. Truly, if 8-10 Kargat are not enough to deal with a problem then it would be important enough for Azalin to intervene himself leaving aside his "a child carried never learns to walk" attitude that he uses on bandints.


However: If the size and population of Darkon is increased, so does the need of Kargat agents.
All in all, I believe that the "Kargat density" so to speak, should be about 4-5 agents within an area that can be travelled within a day or two (say in an area 20x20 miles unless travel is easy) and that has about 12K to 15K people, with more agents if population is greater. That puts 1 Kargat agent every 3000 people on average and spread densely enough to be able to call a dozen extra members within a couple of days if needed.

[ewancummins]

You could retcon that number by saying it included the Kargatane as well as the Kargat.

[Drinnik Shoehorn]

I'd say that number is about right. There's enough to spy on most of the populace, and not all would be monstrous. That number could also take into account agents in other domains or who travel like the Squid Woman.

[ewancummins]

I'd say that number is about right. There's enough to spy on most of the populace, and not all would be monstrous. That number could also take into account agents in other domains or who travel like the Squid Woman.

Is the Squid Woman part of the Isolde's carnival?

[alhoon]

I'd say that number is about right. There's enough to spy on most of the populace, and not all would be monstrous. That number could also take into account agents in other domains or who travel like the Squid Woman.

50 would be enough to spy on most of the (120K) populace since much of that duty is done by Kargatane and other informants. The Kargat are field agents from the 50% humans to the ghosts and vampires at the top.
Unless dozens of the Kargat are infiltrating other domains, 200 Kargat are still a huge number. Most of them would have very little to do. Again, I bring you Martira Bay: 15-20 Kargat + extras for Kargatane to spy on a port and 10K people settlement? 5+Kargatane would be enough. While by the standards of the era 10K is a decent city... it is still 10000 people; Living in a city of 80K people I can tell you that you'd need less than 5 secret agents to monitor Chania and spy on our population. Sure, today surveilance is easier. But MBay is not 80K and counter surveilance is also easier.

To surmise: It's all good that the numbers of the Kargat are unknown since I can put in an area as many as needed. Since I use more population for Darkon (600K people) 200 Kargat for my game are perfect.

Is the Squid Woman part of the Isolde's carnival?

I think so.

[Drinnik Shoehorn]

Yeah. Azalin sent her to keep tabs on it, but she's scared she is dispensable.

And Azalin has at least one agent in every domain of note; 19 for the Core at the very least, then you have the clusters and islands, Paridon probably has an agent, Nidala, Har Amir, Sourange definitely has one or more due to Misroi's power. So say another 20-25 for them, maybe they work in pairs so double that too. 200 isn't a lot when you take into account the number of domains.

[alhoon]

That's an interesting take Drinnik. I was assuming that very few Kargat were operating outside Darkon, since the Ravenloft theme is that domains are more esocentric.
If Kargat does espionage too, then yes their numbers would increase.

What would be Azalin's interests to monitor all other domains? Just to keep an eye on things in case he has to do something at some point (like he did with S and Verbek) ?
For S and Verbek, I just assumed 2-3 Kargat agents were shadowing S, to put the clones to the right place if needed.

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

What would be Azalin's interests to monitor all other domains? Just to keep an eye on things in case he has to do something at some point (like he did with S and Verbek) ?
For S and Verbek, I just assumed 2-3 Kargat agents were shadowing S, to put the clones to the right place if needed.

I would think Azalin is always on the lookout for things that serve his needs, whether they be in Darkon or not. Useful artifacts and other magic can be brought back to him. Useful minions can be brought back to Darkon for "re-education" (i.e. memory wiping). How else would he have learned of the Hyskosa prophecy? (I like to seed Kargat agents in the Hexad adventures to help manipulate the prophecy into happening). Of all the darklords, he would be the one most likely to keep tabs on the other domains, I would think.

[Boris Drakov]

I'm retconning hard on Darkon.

If Il Aluk has 25.000 and normal medieval urban to rural ratios were 1:9 the countryside around Il Aluk must hold 225.000 alone.

With Karg and the other cities Darkon would be a land of at least 1 million.

Then, even thousands of Kargat would be plausible

[alhoon]

The medieval Urban ratios were 1:9 in early middle ages I think, and in Northern Europe. In more fertile regions like Southern Europe and in high middle ages or late it was more.

BUT I also retcon Darkon. I increased the area at 1"=50 miles and put average population density at 20-25 people/sq.mile. Yes, that's way less than high middle ages. Crimson death, Requiem + lots of wilderness etc keep it down. Monsters kill as many as wars killed in middle ages.
All in all, I have Darkon at about 600K or so, so I made the cities bigger as well.

With Karg and the other cities Darkon would be a land of at least 1 million.

I think the total urban population of Darkon is about 40K without Il Aluk 65K with it.

[alhoon]

Another thing: Azalin is supposed to personally interact with the Kargat, know them personally and all. He had a hand in the recruitment of many of them.
While 200-300 is a manageable number for someone that controls undead, has extremely high intelligence and is well known for intrigue and his aptitude in low-level administration, distance remains a factor.

So, I was thinking on how Azalin keeps tabs with Kargat agents spread throughout his kingdom (especially the larger-sized kingdom I use).
- Teleport is one thing. But it's a 5th lvl spell and Azalin has to know where the Kargat agent he wants to contact is, so I think Azalin would rarely Zap in to talk to a kargat. But it's an effective "brute force" way of contact.
- Chain of command is the most sensible thing, but it would take some time to trickle down. While Azalin has ways to find his agents soon, Kazandra or other high-officers of the Kargat will take longer.
- Messengers are mentioned often, be they zombies that jump up from the earth and deliver a message (like he did with S in Gaz II) or more mundane stuff.
- That spell (I don't remember it) that allows a limited form of communication at a distance, like sending but with a short reply could be handy, but I don't assume Azalin likes to be "rushed". Still handy though for some cases like "Initiate phase 2. Take care that the target recruited an Anchorite that I want alive".
- I prefer to stay away from magical items passed around to act like mobile phones. Say a mirror or something that Azalin speaks to people through; too Harry Potter-ish

Anything else? How the Kargat contact Azalin to give a report or something?

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

He can use the King's Ravens to deliver messages, no?

[alhoon]

He can use the King's Ravens to deliver messages, no?

The what?

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

He can use the King's Ravens to deliver messages, no?

The what?

http://fraternityofshadows.com/wiki/Corvus_Regis

(Didn't you just read Tower of Doom like a month ago? )

[alhoon]

Tower of doom had a talking crow, but it also had talking letters, walking towers, fire-elemental bombs, doorways that turned to maws etc. In a world like that, giving a magical trinket to each and every Kargat, like a mobile phone to contact Azalin is easy.