Does Althea (QtR #21) deserve Darklordship?

[DeepShadow of FoS]

While the Dark Power do, at times, enforce a black-and-white brand of morality that matches conventional moral notions, Ravenloft (and the DPs) also sometimes hold people to moral standards which are archaic, alien to our own, and frighteningly restrictive. Children being punished for the sins of their parents is an extremely common theme in Ravenloft, for example.

Ummmm...Can you give some examples? I can think of one, and it's been retconned to handwave some of that away.

Furthermore, I think it fits in with the medusa mythology perfectly. Ovid's version of the medusa myth depicts medusa as a priestess of Athena, who suffers a rape at the hands of Poseidon. Rather than take umbrage with her deific peer, Athena lays the blame at Medusa's feet, a charge which Ovid calls "just and well-deserved."

Actually, there's a translation issue there that makes it unclear whether it was consensual or not. The Latin verb has been translated as "violated" which is where we get the idea it was rape. It could also just refer to a willing loss of virginity. Other translations of the same line translate that verb as "attained her love".

[Mistmaster]

Actually, there's a translation issue there that makes it unclear whether it was consensual or not. The Latin verb has been translated as "violated" which is where we get the idea it was rape. It could also just refer to a willing loss of virginity. Other translations of the same line translate that verb as "attained her love".

I agree.
I would go further: Althea not only do not deserves Darklordship, that "honor" should go to her husband, but she is a victim, as much as her children; I would make notice that he woed her claiming to be as anti-conformistic as she was, only then revealing himself for that manipulator, coldbloded, stuck-up bigot he was.
Medusas are an evil race; theyr culture is evil, so, defying the evil aspects of it is a good thing to do; Stelios was evil; yes, killing him in his sleep was not a good act, but when the hero kills the evil Ogre while he is sleeping, saving the damsel, we cheer for him; While should we condemn a damsel for freeing herself from the abuse of a cold-hearted monster? Dark Powers can bea prick? I try to avoid it, when I am the DM.
Her only real evil act was trying to murder, in a fit of madness her own, innocent child; That was however, the act of a broken mad person, and I fault Stelios for it too. So, in my Demise, Stelios is the Darklord, and that's it.

[Jimsolo]

While the Dark Power do, at times, enforce a black-and-white brand of morality that matches conventional moral notions, Ravenloft (and the DPs) also sometimes hold people to moral standards which are archaic, alien to our own, and frighteningly restrictive. Children being punished for the sins of their parents is an extremely common theme in Ravenloft, for example.

Ummmm...Can you give some examples? I can think of one, and it's been retconned to handwave some of that away.

When I lost my computer, I lost my digital books, so I can't quote you chapter and verse. But Malken is the one who springs to mind most immediately. The notion of cursed people having cursed children is pretty prevalent in the setting though. I'm absolutely positive there's even a section on blood taint in one of the books that discusses how to run the game, in the part where it's talking about themes. (Ravenloft DMG?)

Furthermore, I think it fits in with the medusa mythology perfectly. Ovid's version of the medusa myth depicts medusa as a priestess of Athena, who suffers a rape at the hands of Poseidon. Rather than take umbrage with her deific peer, Athena lays the blame at Medusa's feet, a charge which Ovid calls "just and well-deserved."

Actually, there's a translation issue there that makes it unclear whether it was consensual or not. The Latin verb has been translated as "violated" which is where we get the idea it was rape. It could also just refer to a willing loss of virginity. Other translations of the same line translate that verb as "attained her love".

I wouldn't argue that the translation is in dispute, but the version of the story where Medusa was violated against her will is still a version which is told, and has been told for some time. (Certainly, it's the first version I ever heard.) If Medusa was a person, I think that determining the actual historical meaning would be worthwhile, but in the context of Ravenloft, historical accuracy isn't nearly as important as a good story.

To that end, I think the version where Medusa was an unwilling participant in her violation makes for a more powerful story. An empathetic figure cursed by cruel and capricious powers beyond mortal understanding, whose descent into evil is muddled by the question of how much of their corruption is inherent to their personality, and how much is a result of their treatment, is a compelling character. If medusas share this in common, (and within my campaigns, they do) they have something which makes them stand out from other monsters, while at the same time making each one unique and epic, with their "crimes" and curses individual to them. Without this common thread, medusas are just another snake monster. Put them in line-up with yuan ti, naga, and hebi-no-ona, and they don't even stand out.

I'm not saying everyone needs to do it that way. But the OP asked about whether people thought Althea deserved her own domain. I think, for story purposes, she serves a narrative role that other Dark lords don't. That's why I like her, personally. It's purely an opinion thing.

Anyway, that's just how I see it!

[Five]

I would go further: Althea not only do not deserves Darklordship, that "honor" should go to her husband, but she is a victim, as much as her children; I would make notice that he woed her claiming to be as anti-conformistic as she was, only then revealing himself for that manipulator, coldbloded, stuck-up bigot he was.


Medusas are an evil race; theyr culture is evil, so, defying the evil aspects of it is a good thing to do; Stelios was evil; yes, killing him in his sleep was not a good act, but when the hero kills the evil Ogre while he is sleeping, saving the damsel, we cheer for him; While should we condemn a damsel for freeing herself from the abuse of a cold-hearted monster? Dark Powers can bea prick? I try to avoid it, when I am the DM.
Her only real evil act was trying to murder, in a fit of madness her own, innocent child; That was however, the act of a broken mad person, and I fault Stelios for it too. So, in my Demise, Stelios is the Darklord, and that's it.

Geez, I'd hate for you to be my juror or judge.

Morality through literature/popular culture? Antiheroes, and their actions, are just that. The People's Choice is not always the right one. For you American posters: Just look at Trump. -rimshot-

Members of the Peoples Temple innocent of the act of poisoning, and ultimately killing!, their children ("it's Jim Jones's fault! He made them do it.")? Bull.

To marginalize Althea's child's innocence like that, to empathize with such evil/an evil act...antilife...it's a cosmic jimmy-rig that will eternally keep the Light from winning the race. And it's a very sad social-moral-ethical commentary.

...If I don't mind reading into your words and laying two pennies on the table..haha

[Mistmaster]

I don't empathize with the act, I empathize with the person; It's different; The power emotional abuse have on the persons is not to be underestimated. Never heard about insanity?
And however the meadar kid wasn't killed in that instance; As has been said I don't say she is innocent, I say her husband is more responsable than her. You shouldn'tread in my lines what there is not there.

[Five]

I don't empathize with the act, I empathize with the person; It's different; The power emotional abuse have on the persons is not to be underestimated. Never heard about insanity?
And however the meadar kid wasn't killed in that instance; As has been said I don't say she is innocent, I say her husband is more responsable than her. You shouldn'tread in my lines what there is not there.

I understand emotional abuse and the power it can have over an individual. And I will never underestimate the will of another. However, that should never be an excuse for anybody to commit crimes against others, innocent people anyway, and above that a child.

Althea could've left her abusive husband at any time before she may have been deemed by the reader as "mentally ill" or "too far gone" (whatever), but she chose, for whatever her reasons, not to. And that cause was ultimately her effect. Should not her decision making process(es), the consequences of her actions (inactions), not be held accountable for her crimes? She chose to continue walking that road, making the choices she made. She chose to fester in the negative, and she chose to take it out on her abuser. She let her pain turn to hatred and from her hatred she chose evil. Evil greater than the evil inflicted upon herself.

Non Compos Mentis? Really? If that were the case (and not just a legal jive) then how did she become a Dark Lord? :p

Her husband, well, he's a piece of work in his own regard and as such is guilty of his own horrible crimes against Althea. Yet he cannot be solely responsible for the evil acts of his wife. Why would he become a Dark Lord? Antiwife trumps antilife? I'm being facetious here now with that last bit. But seriously, is murder not a greater evil than emotional violence? One leaves its victims with nothing. Gone. Wormfood. The other, choices: stay or go. Submit or Defy.

Our actions, the choices we make and don't make, are what makes us individuals. So in that regard I view empathizing with the evil acts of an evil witch the same as I do empathizing with the evil witch herself. My personal empathy lies with her story (her pain), up to the point where she chooses to overcome her pain and become more evil that her husband, and lash out ...

You wrote:

Her only real evil act was trying to murder, in a fit of madness her own, innocent child; That was however, the act of a broken mad person, and I fault Stelios for it too. So, in my Demise, Stelios is the Darklord, and that's it.

I focused on the words "only" (Her only real evil act..), and "That was however,"...to me, those words comes off as defensive, and were the targets of my original post. Personally, I don't think I read into your words so much as I read your words. I only said I was reading into your words to help show you that I was taking the approach from a lighthearted debate/devil's advocate point of view. Perhaps I should have elaborated a bit?

To marginalize Althea's child's innocence like that, to empathize with such evil/an evil act...antilife...it's a cosmic jimmy-rig that will eternally keep the Light from winning the race. And it's a very sad social-moral-ethical commentary.

I should have said "The concept of marginalizing...".

I'm not challenging you, Mistmaster, so much as I'm challenging everybody that may share your particular mindset. To me, there's honestly a huge difference. I'm not highhorsing, and challenge respectfully.

FYI...

[Mistmaster]

Sorry if I seemed more incensed that it's lecit in a friendly debate; it wasn't my intention.
However, I didn't mean to say that the act of murder is lighter than mental abuse, but that Stelios is at least partially responsable of that too; if you sum up shared responsabilities in Althea's action, with his own crimes, you find he is more guilty than she is. She is a darklord, in my opinion, only because the Darkpowers are huge jerks. Lol.
(She didn't leave him, because he manipulated her in not doing it. )

[order99]

I've been quietly following this debate with the keenest of delights, and arrived at a few opinions of my own...

Does Althea in fact deserve to be a Darklord, even of such a relatively small domain? Well, judging by Modern tropes, i'd say she needed to fall a bit farther than she has-in fact Althea would have to literally murder her family's chidren at the very least (and decide to do so in relatively sound mind) for her Act of Ultimate Evil. By Gothic tropes however, Althea torturing her husband to death might be enough-unfortunate implications by Modern standards or no. As pointed out earlier in this Thread, Gothic tropes carry some baggage most of us aren't really comfortable with anymore, and the Dark Powers (much like Life) can be very unfair.

To me, the Dire Elephant in the room is this-how can Althea be redeemed? Strahd could honestly break the cycle and walk out of Borovia if he wished (he won't). So could many Darklords (they won't). The worst tragedy of Darklordship should be the fact that THEY COULD JUST STOP, and that they DON'T. After all, Lord Soth did it (after a fashion at least)...

So, what Sins must Althea acknowledge in herself and change that she might be free of her small Domain? What steps must she take? What Blind Spot in her soul must she make herself see and move past? If there is no way for Althea to lay her burden down and be free, then she becomes less interesting both to the Dark Powers and to the story-again, I think the great tragedy of the Darklord is not only the forging of their own Damnation link by link, but the active choice NOT to cast it aside. Even by Gothic tropes (with its unfair Black and White morality its Inherited Sins and its implication of Madness as a moral failing) there should be a way out.

Lord Soth accepted that his damnation was entirely of his own making regardless of other contributing circumstances, and in his despairing acceptance was released.

Frankenstein's Monster understood at last that it no longer mattered who was to blame for his birth and realized that his hatred made him every bit the Monster others saw-he chose the peace of the grave over a continued War against Mankind.

Henry Jekyll wrestled with Edward Hyde to the bitter end, and chose to poison them both to stop the Sin within himself.

When confronted with the Truth Absolute that he would continue to fall further into depravity no matter his inclinations otherwise, Markheim chose to confess to a recent murder, choosing a short fall at the end of a noose over his further moral degradation.

So-what must Althea do or discover in order to walk away from her paltry Domain? I think that if we could nail that down, we might be able to work backwards, and modify Althea's story as needed so that she absolutely deserves her Darklordship-which of course enhances the Tragedy of it.

Darklords are a bit like Artifacts in this way I think-the secret of unmaking them should be as vital to the story as their abilities and history, and any that don't have that redemption implicit in the story seem to , well, be lacking. I can't help thinking of the many posts dedicated to Jaccquelline or Malken, Maligino or Sodo, etc etc in order to enhance something that seemed missing or incomplete about them, in order to make them make sense ...

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

An interesting thought that I hadn't considered before, order66. Off the top of my head, the thing that jumps to mind is for her to be the parent that she claimed she wanted to be, to a child that might not be to her liking. Sure, she tried really hard to be a mother to her human children. But part of parenthood is accepting your children, even if they don't meet the ideal you want. Even if they remind you painfully of someone who wronged you. So, either she would have to learn that Leftheris is alive, and make amends with him in some way, and find some concrete way to serve as a parent to him (Granted, hard to do when he's a) an adult, and b) conditioned from birth to resent and fear her)*, or perhaps better, find a new child and adopt it, despite some shortcoming, whether it be a maedar child, (best) or some other non-human child (would have to be chosen carefully to make sense). Bonus points if maybe the new child is Leftheris's son, though where he'd find another medusa to mate with is an exercise for the reader. (Please, no Oedipus reference here! )


On another note, I haven't chimed in lately, but I have been watching the thread. I'm still amazed and honored that people are discussing this over a year later! I'm definitely considering some small tweaks for when we finally publish the full Gaz, but I still do think she deserves darklordship. (Is she a victim, YES! but she is also a murderer. The one does not excuse the other. See also Hazlik, Gabrielle, Urik, Adam, Yagno...) If some think otherwise, that's fine. I don't mind if you want Stelios to be the darklord. He's certainly suffering enough. Go ahead. I would just ask: what did he do that any other Maedar would not have? (or hasn't done) He never claimed to be anything different than other Maedar, or to disagree with their society as Althea did. She assumed he did, based on his scholarly pursuits as an illusionist, but that difference was, in truth, the only thing that set him apart from his more physical brethren. In his dedication to Medusoid norms, he's just like the others. Yes, he manipulated her emotionally, but he was probably far kinder in that than other Maedars would have been. (damning with faint praise, I know) The point is, the Dark Powers have no reason to be interested in him, as they do in her. That's the way I see it, at least.

*Perhaps one way would by helping him leave the island? After all, the "last" act of all parents is to prepare the child to leave the nest and let them go....

[order99]

Who is this order66 you speak of....OH NO I LEFT THE MIRROR OF OPPOSITION UNCOVERED AGAIN!! AVERT THY GAZE OH GONZORON!!!

But yes, an Ultimate Act of Transgression does just as well by Gothic Tropes as an Act of Ultimate Evil-the very fact that Althea commits a crime that would make even her Monstrous kin blanch and then want to end her...I can see it. The Dark Powers do seem to take those who Transgress against their 'normal' natures after all-it's not like our favorite Meistersinger is being punished for being true to his Lycanthrope Nature after all, and Strahd would most likely never drawn the interest of the Dark Powers if he'd just been bitten by some Vampire on his way to a joyous wedding...

Another facet of Althea that might need to be explored-it's true that the Dark Powers are jerks, and invariably tweak a Darklord's situation in order to find maximum 'amusement' for them...is Althea's plight as keenly ironic as Strahd's great Revolving Wheel of Sissyphus, Jacquelaine's desperate longing for intimacy that wars with her paranoia, Adam's wanting of companionship vs his own self-sabotage of same, Malken's keen bitterness regarding the foe he must not ever really defeat, the Great Warlord who can conquer No One, etc etc? Does Althea, as she is, Amuse the Dark Powers sufficiently to deserve and maintain her own Domain? Admittedly it is a smallish one...

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

Who is this order66 you speak of....OH NO I LEFT THE MIRROR OF OPPOSITION UNCOVERED AGAIN!! AVERT THY GAZE OH GONZORON!!!

many apologies. too much Star Wars on the brain, it seems.

Does Althea, as she is, Amuse the Dark Powers sufficiently to deserve and maintain her own Domain? Admittedly it is a smallish one...

Well, I'd like to think that her being doomed to constantly try to have a medusa child, only to have fate intervene in seemingly random ways, is a sisyphusian curse in keeping with the ones you listed, enough to amuse or placate or the Dark Powers, or give them whatever satisfaction it is that they get out of such things.

[Suvie]

Actually, there's a translation issue there that makes it unclear whether it was consensual or not. The Latin verb has been translated as "violated" which is where we get the idea it was rape. It could also just refer to a willing loss of virginity. Other translations of the same line translate that verb as "attained her love".

I agree.
I would go further:

You agree...with what? You quoted an alternative interpretation of a Latin verb about virginity, and then said you would go further that Althea does not deserve DLship. Something got lost there.

While should we condemn a damsel for freeing herself from the abuse of a cold-hearted monster?

Because she didn't just free herself. She could have run away--nothing was stopping her. It's not like she was Francine Hughes: killing him was not necessary to escape. Francine was found not guilty in part because her husband had a repeated pattern that suggested he would kill her if she did not kill him. I don't see any such pattern in Stelios' behavior.

Her only real evil act was trying to murder, in a fit of madness her own, innocent child; That was however, the act of a broken mad person, and I fault Stelios for it too. So, in my Demise, Stelios is the Darklord, and that's it.

How did Stelios drive her mad after she killed him? She went mad from the sheer irony of finally having a living child, and not being able to bear the sight of it because it was his. That's not his fault that she can't stand his race.

[Mistmaster]

Because she was mentally and emotionally bound to him; in her twisted mind, only his death could free her of him. And she went mad because he costantly refused to turn theyr children back to flash; Her dislike of Maedar depends entrely on Stelios behaviour. This is my opinion.
I apologize, but English is not my mother language, so sometime I loose something when I write.

[order99]

Actually, there's a translation issue there that makes it unclear whether it was consensual or not. The Latin verb has been translated as "violated" which is where we get the idea it was rape. It could also just refer to a willing loss of virginity. Other translations of the same line translate that verb as "attained her love".

I agree.
I would go further:

You agree...with what? You quoted an alternative interpretation of a Latin verb about virginity, and then said you would go further that Althea does not deserve DLship. Something got lost there.

While should we condemn a damsel for freeing herself from the abuse of a cold-hearted monster?

Because she didn't just free herself. She could have run away--nothing was stopping her. It's not like she was Francine Hughes: killing him was not necessary to escape. Francine was found not guilty in part because her husband had a repeated pattern that suggested he would kill her if she did not kill him. I don't see any such pattern in Stelios' behavior.

Her only real evil act was trying to murder, in a fit of madness her own, innocent child; That was however, the act of a broken mad person, and I fault Stelios for it too. So, in my Demise, Stelios is the Darklord, and that's it.

How did Stelios drive her mad after she killed him? She went mad from the sheer irony of finally having a living child, and not being able to bear the sight of it because it was his. That's not his fault that she can't stand his race.

The more I think about it...Killing her mate slowly and painfully would be an absolute sin under Gothic Tropes, and the 'slow and painful' part would would probably get her some prison time (and counseling) even with a Modern sympathetic jury.

In the end though, I have come to believe that her termination of the marriage contract with Extreme Predudice wasn't the Act of Ultimate Darkness. Despite the fact that Althea really could have tried just leaving her husband before going through with Murder, there was still some justification.

I'm beginning to think that the rejection and attempt to kill an innocent was actually her Final Fall. Althea took out her hatred on an innocent child for the sin of resembling his father. In doing so she committed a Blasphemy against Motherhood Itself and against the Natural Order as well. Brink of Madness notwithstanding, Althea could have loved her Maedar son despite his looks...failing that, she could have done her duty towards him (you don't have to love someone in order to feed and shelter them), and explained her distance to him when he was old enough so that the child would know he was not blamed. In time and in the fullness of his powers, could not Althea's own child have restored the rest of the Chidren to life and thereby a happy ending?

But Althea Fell. Through pain and Madness she Fell, and Falls still, until Redemption come.