Is Ravenloft in trouble?

[Tobias Blackburn]

EDIT: By Cassandra, I meant Nicky. I have no idea why I made that mistake. Sorry.

If you use this statement, then Jackie and Cassandra are making a poor job of their work. Thier "little picture" (The Barovia section of Gaz 1, meant to be the definitive source of information on Barovia to date) was made null thanks to the next published book CoDorkness, which introduced poorly thought out concepts and badly written ideas, especially the Cold War section.

Some people may think J&C may be making a good job, but believe me, I wouldn't shed a tear if they where replaced. Hell, they've got Steve Miller writing for them now, give him the flaming job, no one writing on the line has more experience than him. The idea of J&C being his superior is laughable, it's like a college grad being made supervisor of a 20 verteran at a job.

I don't know if Jackie and Cassie are really that bad. Champions of Darkness came out a long time ago. Nothing since has been as bad. Quite the opposite. There are also a lot of salvageable ideas in it, such as the Hunting club and a good number of the PrCs.

Consider it a lesson learned. As for the conversions to 3.5., they did have a very limited time to actually make the conversion. Converting and laying out two books does take time, so I can see where mistakes were made (particularly in naming certain ideas as optional and the lack of applying errata). They were trying to squeeze extra books into the schedule after all.

And while I would love to have the Kargatane or Steve developing the setting, I would rather have them writing the actual books. You can either have them toss a general idea at a bunch of author and let them run with it, or you can have them take the big amorphous notion and hammer it into a hundred little plot points.

I don't know them personally, nor do I know exactly what their exact responsibilities are, so I cannot pass judgement. Am I supporting them whole heartedly... no. Masque of the Red Death was good, but had MASSIVE editing faults. I don't know if that is their fault, or the editing staffs. I do know that Legacy of the Blood is much better in editing.

The Kargatane has said that there was a complete lack of direction for the line. That they recieved very little guidence. The line was being converted, so I can understand why moving the uber-plot wouldn't be on their minds. The Time of Unparalelled Darkness is, what, 22 to 25 years away? Hardly a priority when you first need to get the domains translated.
And what if they had decided to make the plot move in an overt way? If they had decided to kill off Gabrielle or Malacchio when presenting Invidia, what would the response have been. People would have been up in arms! What if Keening was absorbed by the Shadow Rift? Everyone has a favorite domain and set of NPCs. Few realize that moving foreward the Meta-plot will result in more Requim like events which will CHANGE you favorite realm. Who here still calls Darkon Necropolis and uses the Demilords instead of Azalin?

The Developers let those that had immersed themselves in the setting have fairly free reign in writing for it. They let others have that same freedom, to varying degrees of success. I have yet to see one book that is utterly useless though (I admit that CoD does come close).

I'm not saying that we shouldn't be critical, but calling someone imcompetent without having a complete idea as to their duties and actions is unfair and uncalled for. Why does it always have to go to personal attacks? How often have you cursed the name of Dale Donovan, the editor of the Ravenloft Player's Handbook, Denizens of Dread and Masque of the Red Death. I would think that it was his job to ensure these mistakes were corrected.

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

Who's Cassandra?

The "Dark Duo" are Jackie Cassada and Nicky Rea.

If you're going to bash someone, at least get their names right.

(I'm sure it was just a flub changing "Cassada" to "Cassandra", but I find it funny that "Cassandra" quickly became "Cassie" as though she were an old friend.)

[Tobias Blackburn]

D'oh!

That's what I meant. Kinda takes the wind outta my arguement, doesn't it.

[Jester of the FoS]

The Kargatane has said that there was a complete lack of direction for the line. That they recieved very little guidence. The line was being converted, so I can understand why moving the uber-plot wouldn't be on their minds. The Time of Unparalelled Darkness is, what, 22 to 25 years away? Hardly a priority when you first need to get the domains translated.
And what if they had decided to make the plot move in an overt way? If they had decided to kill off Gabrielle or Malacchio when presenting Invidia, what would the response have been. People would have been up in arms! What if Keening was absorbed by the Shadow Rift? Everyone has a favorite domain and set of NPCs. Few realize that moving foreward the Meta-plot will result in more Requim like events which will CHANGE you favorite realm. Who here still calls Darkon Necropolis and uses the Demilords instead of Azalin?

You pick only one of the changes the land has undergone for your example, and yes it has been *mostly* reversed but there have been many other changes.

* The Grand Conjunction
* Loss of Soth
* Malocchio and Gabby's de-thronement
* Addition of Shadow Fey
* Death of VanRichten

Many of those were greated warmly, although with some sadness and some were embraced. Not all change is bad, and if it is for a reason and well done then it is actually good.
Requiem was poorly done and seemed an excuse to dump some new rules into the game (a far worse product than Champions of Darkness, and now all but useless).
IF the change is appropriate, advances the metaplot and does not seem tacked on I imagine the fans will mostly accept it. There will always be a few who do not and they can ignore the change in their personal campaigns or set all stories prior to the event (seen with Soth for the most part, but that's understandable).

I can see alot of interesting changes:
Tristen could very easily die officially and pass along his curse (he's getting old...).
Ditto Drakov, possibly after initiating a poorly thought-out war resulting in a coup.
Verbrek has undergone almost no changes, ever. Save at the GC but that was more a change to Arkandale. I could see some fun shake-ups there.

Oh, and if the 'official' year changes this December to 759 then the Time of Unparalleled Darkness will only be 16 years away. Or rather its climax. Who knows how early it will start...

[Tobias Blackburn]

You pick only one of the changes the land has undergone for your example, and yes it has been *mostly* reversed but there have been many other changes.

* The Grand Conjunction
* Loss of Soth
* Malocchio and Gabby's de-thronement
* Addition of Shadow Fey
* Death of VanRichten

Many of those were greated warmly, although with some sadness and some were embraced. Not all change is bad, and if it is for a reason and well done then it is actually good.

The Loss of Soth was not taken well, if I remember. Much nashing of teeth and cursing, with more than one person asking if the book was actually cannon. If I may point something out, all of those changes occured during adventures. What if another Grand Conjunction happened between the rule changes? People were glad to get Azalin back, but many were/are very annoyed that we don't know the exact mechanics behind his return.

Requiem was poorly done and seemed an excuse to dump some new rules into the game (a far worse product than Champions of Darkness, and now all but useless).
IF the change is appropriate, advances the metaplot and does not seem tacked on I imagine the fans will mostly accept it. There will always be a few who do not and they can ignore the change in their personal campaigns or set all stories prior to the event (seen with Soth for the most part, but that's understandable).

You don't use the city of Necropolis in your game? The rules may not work, especially in 3.5, but the domain itself works. Introduced through the advancement of the metaplot. Also, Azalin's disappearence and return has allowed him to change his strategies and commission the Gazetters. Not much of a simple rules dump, now.

I can see alot of interesting changes:
Tristen could very easily die officially and pass along his curse (he's getting old...).
Ditto Drakov, possibly after initiating a poorly thought-out war resulting in a coup.
Verbrek has undergone almost no changes, ever. Save at the GC but that was more a change to Arkandale. I could see some fun shake-ups there.

Verbrek didn't exist as a worthwhile domain until the fourth Gazetter. It had a rule that the werewolves eat you the instant you enter without a Vistani guide! They got rid of that because is was a silly rule. You can't shake things up until they are defined. In fact, with the release of the Gazetters, events will have further reaching consequences.

What sort of shake-ups were you thinking of? I'm honestly interested. I just don't think having Alfred deposed and slaughtered by his own clan two months before his domain actually gets described is a very good way to go. Now that we know the situation there, we can start with the killing.

Oh, and if the 'official' year changes this December to 759 then the Time of Unparalleled Darkness will only be 16 years away. Or rather its climax. Who knows how early it will start...

16 years in real time... Since it is doubtful that any line will stay in the current edition that long. If I want to play it, I'll just make it up myself, especially since they probably won't be releasing any actual adventures for it.

[Wiccy of the Fraternity]

You don't use the city of Necropolis in your game? The rules may not work, especially in 3.5, but the domain itself works. Introduced through the advancement of the metaplot. Also, Azalin's disappearence and return has allowed him to change his strategies and commission the Gazetters. Not much of a simple rules dump, now.

I have altered The Shroud for my games, instead of it killing instantly, it is a field of negative energy that slowly feeds on and drains the vitality of the living, forcing occasional Fort saves. The DC against the effects of The Shroud climbs with each consecutive saving throw. Whe nyou fail a saving throw, you take a negative level, you gain to many you die and rise as a form of Necropolitan Undead.

16 years in real time... Since it is doubtful that any line will stay in the current edition that long. If I want to play it, I'll just make it up myself, especially since they probably won't be releasing any actual adventures for it.

My plans for the ToUD involve Inajira, The GC, Malocchio, Isolde, Prof Pacali, Gregor Zolnik, Rudolph Van Richten, Louise Renier, Gabby Aderre, The Church of Hala and other things. Very few DL's are involved, though Strahd and Azalin will both have their own plots going on before the climax.

[Mangrum]

If you use this statement, then Jackie and Cassandra are making a poor job of their work. Thier "little picture" (The Barovia section of Gaz 1, meant to be the definitive source of information on Barovia to date) was made null thanks to the next published book CoDorkness, which introduced poorly thought out concepts and badly written ideas, especially the Cold War section.

That's basically right. To boil it down to a minimalist view, making sure that a book you publish this month doesn't directly contradict the book you published last month is a developer's job in a nutshell.

Other examples of failed oversight include S's marked personality change in Mordent and having half of Van Richten's Guide to the Walking Dead be written using the wrong format (specifically, using the VRA format rather than VRG).

it's like a college grad being made supervisor of a 20 verteran at a job.

Indeed, most of our problems with the developers boiled down to this: As the Kargatane, we were primarily developers, along with being editors and authors. We set the release schedule and the themes to pursue in our books, and we worked with authors to create a coherent style (in terms of writing, rules, and content). We were, as I think anyone here would know, defined by our strict editorial standards.

When Arthaus hired us, however, it was to be authors*, and after our initial develper handed off the reins after Secrets of the Dread Realms (at the time, Denizens of Darkness, VRA, ChoD, HoL, and Gaz I were either headed for production or on the schedule), we found ourselves answering to developers with a distinctly laisse-faire style and a serious lack of a grasp on the 3E system. Privately, a number of the Kargatane summed up Chod thusly when we first saw it (after having high hopes for it):

"We wouldn't have accepted most of this in a netbook."

* Arthaus did, in fact, originally ask us if we wanted to be a studio (ala Necromancer Games or Malhavoc Press) or if we just wanted to work directly for Arthaus as straight freelancers. To my understanding, the former would have given us greater autonomy, and thus solved the most severe problems that cropped up later, but our inexperience presented obvious problems up front. We chose the latter option. In the short term, it was probably the correct one.

[Wiccy of the Fraternity]

It seems the Kargatane held the same belief as most others wen it came to CoD. VRG Walking Dead may have been in the wrong format here and there, but I still think it is a good book.

[Jester of the FoS]

The Loss of Soth was not taken well, if I remember. Much nashing of teeth and cursing, with more than one person asking if the book was actually cannon. If I may point something out, all of those changes occured during adventures. What if another Grand Conjunction happened between the rule changes? People were glad to get Azalin back, but many were/are very annoyed that we don't know the exact mechanics behind his return.

They took place during the adventures because the adventures were there and to allow players to play the change without requiring the DM to write up all the nuances.
For those who did not buy the adventure (like moi until recently) the changes were just tossed out in each new publication of the rules. Malochio just appeared in Domains of Dread.
With no published adventures the metaplot or setting could just as easily be changed in accesories.
Soth's removal was hated, that was not an example of change well taken as much as just another example of change. My point was the setting has never been static and unchanging settings can be boring. The problem with Soth leaving comes down to it not being a story decision or plot point but a company-based dispute between writers so the fans felt yanked around. That and no one really liked Inza as a darklord, until she was published. Then people started to feel a tad different.
If the change makes sense and is done well the fans will want to make use of the change.

You don't use the city of Necropolis in your game? The rules may not work, especially in 3.5, but the domain itself works. Introduced through the advancement of the metaplot. Also, Azalin's disappearence and return has allowed him to change his strategies and commission the Gazetters. Not much of a simple rules dump, now.

I use it, but for the several years before 3E I know alot of people who didn't. It was a silly change and odd renaming of a domain. Even when Drakon was known as Necropolis I still called it Darkon in my games and just renamed Il Aluk. The city still died though.
The problem with the boxed set was very poorly done rules, even when they were for a current system and a poorly done adventure and accesory to match. The only good parts of that were the descriptions of the land and city, most of which have been reprinted and improved in Gaz2.
I was a pointless and poorly done story...

What sort of shake-ups were you thinking of? I'm honestly interested. I just don't think having Alfred deposed and slaughtered by his own clan two months before his domain actually gets described is a very good way to go. Now that we know the situation there, we can start with the killing.

No idea.
I've never used the domain much. Or at all. Hence why it is so ripe for an upheaval. Some new twist or element to make it more playable or interesting so people will want to regularly set campaigns there.
The trick is to make the change so it fits the feel of the land and doen't instantly devalue what was previously written last year (almost to the month) when Gaz4 was published.
Other domains that have never really seen any change include: Mordent, Dementlieu and Falkovnia. As suggested earlier they could very easily push forward the big western war or advance the related political story there.

16 years in real time... Since it is doubtful that any line will stay in the current edition that long. If I want to play it, I'll just make it up myself, especially since they probably won't be releasing any actual adventures for it.

Yeah, probably. But they could start hints or put things in motion. Fourteen years ago when the line started did anyone think it would last this long??
But I was mainly pointing out that the ToUD was closer than you though.

[Tobias Blackburn]

You've got a point, but I still like how the setting has been progressing.

I feel that the setting is taking a moment and giving me more control. It has undergone some massive changes in the past few years, and I don't think taking some time to breath and set up for the next act is a bad thing.

Because of the Gazetteers, we have hundreds of adventure ideas. Not everything has to involve the darklord, which becomes a problem with the major events. If something big is going on, you can't avoid them. We have a hundred different adventure ideas from the gazetteers, so its possible to use Invidia as more than just a power struggle between two evil family members. Nova Vaasa becomes greater than the plains and oddly placed egyptian tombs.

The new Legacy of the Blood book lays a very good plot which could easily replace one of the darklords. It needs time to mature, probably, oh say... somewhere between 2 to 16 years. Similar to the Renier Becoming Plauge. Could work now or as part of the ToUD, depends all on you. They could very well open some of them up.

I would love to see a big change every now and then, but if every domain is in utter turmoil, we've got problems. I would rather a calm for a period before the storm comes to wipe the land clean.

[Trickstergod]

Interesting fact; Jackie and Nicky's last developing job was for a line that ultimately tanked. They were the developers for Changeling: the Dreaming that, even before the rest of the World of Darkness was ended, had years before been effectively killed, with its own string of horrendously written books.

Or is that just bad writers or poor interest in the line? The developers don't do the actual writing for the books (generally), they guide the line.

I didn't quite blame them for it failing; simply pointing out that it did, indeed, fail. However, if the developer has nothing to do with how well a line does, just what the heck do they do, anyway?

Bad writers and poor interest probably were the primary factors. It still stands, though, that the developers gave the go ahead on at least some of the bad ideas that cropped up.

Another interesting fact: At least one former developer for White Wolf claims that the reason he was let loose from the company had less to do with the quality of his work and more to do with not going out to play golf and drink beer with the rest of the guys (or something along those lines).

One guy? What was his name? Is there proof?

Jess Heining, the (former) Mage developer. Of course, it's possible he's just bitter about it all. If I can find a quotable source, I'll see to posting it up, though.

Now, I'm not saying Jackie and Nicky aren't interested in the setting: I think they are. I just think they're incompetent.

I also think that White Wolf, Arthaus, whatever, chooses its employees based on friendship and association lines, to a degree.

Can you give a list of reasons for these conclusions, or are you deciding things without real proof?

Inference, mainly. They seem to have little impact on the quality of the Ravenloft line or the Changeling line before them and, in addition to the admittedly tenuously helpful bit on Jess, there, I find it questionable that they would actually be kept on for their talent. Call that callous, or downright mean-spirited if you will, but that's where I'm drawing up my conclusions from.

Are the developers being blamed because the Kargatane left, or because the entire line is garbage? I don't think the second part is true, so you're taking half known facts and taking shots at a convenient target.

Good job! :roll:

Only two? The Ravenloft Player's Handbook's "revisions." The Denizen's of Dread "revisions." Now we've Masque of the Red Death and its faux pas. Sure, Masque, the Player's Handbook, Denizens - all of these have some quality info in them. But then, much of that exists quite independently of the developers themselves. It's the new stuff that they put in or helped put in that are the most telling. Champions of Darkness shows a thorough lack of stylistic knowledge on their part while the revisions in the Player's Handbook and Denizens of Dread show a dearth of d20 mechanical knowledge.

And no, I don't think the whole Ravenloft line is garbage. I just think that most of the decent material that's rolled out for it would have come out regardless of whether or not they were the developers, whereas the garbage stands as a statement of "Why the heck didn't you put a stop to this before it reached the printers?"

But then, perhaps I think too much of them and how much they factor into quality control.

As for the Kargatane's departure from Arthaus, yes, I also do blame Jackie and Nicky in part. It's not hard to see the amount of ire John Mangrum holds towards them and I'm sure some similar thoughts could be found from the other Kargatane members; he's just simply the most vocal of the bunch.

[Jester of the FoS]

Only two? The Ravenloft Player's Handbook's "revisions." The Denizen's of Dread "revisions." Now we've Masque of the Red Death and its faux pas. Sure, Masque, the Player's Handbook, Denizens - all of these have some quality info in them. But then, much of that exists quite independently of the developers themselves. It's the new stuff that they put in or helped put in that are the most telling. Champions of Darkness shows a thorough lack of stylistic knowledge on their part while the revisions in the Player's Handbook and Denizens of Dread show a dearth of d20 mechanical knowledge.

And no, I don't think the whole Ravenloft line is garbage. I just think that most of the decent material that's rolled out for it would have come out regardless of whether or not they were the developers, whereas the garbage stands as a statement of "Why the heck didn't you put a stop to this before it reached the printers?"

But then, perhaps I think too much of them and how much they factor into quality control.

How exactly does the RL: PHB show a "dearth of d20 mechanical knowledge"? The problems with that book come not from faulty game mechanics, which are sound but from the unpopularity of the new optional rules. The monster conversion in the back work and the new PrC is good. Superior to the version of the same class the Kargatene produce.
While the book may be disliked for its liberal use of Power Checks there have been more and equally blatant offenders on that front before and those rules do jump out as optional. It could have been emphasises more but that is a minor quibble.

Champions of Darkness cannot be entirely blamed on them. Do you see their names in the writing credits? True they approved it but they also approved VRA, the RL: DMG, Gaz 2+, Legacies of Blood, VRG to Walking Dead/Fey and MORE. You cannot single them out as poor with a single book and ignore their positive track record; if they’re blamed for their failures they should get credit for their successes. To do otherwise is unfair and hypocritical.
Bad books are still books that have to be published by a certain date. The outline is designed, writters assigned and everyone sits back until the work is produced months later. If parts of it are poor then they can easily be sent back to be re-written. BUT what if the entire book is crap? Then what? Do you really think there’s enough time to start again from scratch? And if there is a differing opinion of the quality then what? Taste is subjective. CoD was also one of their firsts book and I certainly hope they used it as a learning experience. Continuing to beat this dead horse is pointless.
I wonder if William W. Connors ever got attacked this badly for Forged of Darkness, Requiem: the Grim Harvest and Children of the Night: Werebeasts.

Masque of the Red Death did have a few big errors in it. But you cannot just solely blame them. They had final responsibility but there is the Editor of the book and the authors. Plus it is an almost 300 page book so the positives far outweigh the mistakes. Sloppy errors are there but it is hardly the giant unplayable mass that the more disgruntled posters seem to think of it as. I still prefer the update with its greater attention to the world than the original boxed set.

I’ll will agree with Denizens of Dread though. The updates to that were minimal and have frequent mistakes. That was sloppy. I doubt if I could have done much better though, and definitely not in such a short span of time. The amount of changes to monsters between 3E and 3.5 look cosmetic (removal of ‘beast’ label and other such changes) but once you start trudging through the back of the Monster Manual 3.5 and see how much work is required it seems like hours for each page. That’s a lot of consumed time, even for someone familiar with d20 and not someone who spent most of their time in the industry working for an entirely different gaming system. This is not an excuse, they were hired for a job and should have worked damn hard to be prepared for the position but the update is again hardly the useless book disgruntled posters claim it to be.

As for Mangrum’s ire to them this is neither here nor there and irrelevant to the argument.
(Further comments removed by David cause they themselves were irrelevant, inflamatory and unprofession. Sorry).

I do think they could be doing a better and more careful job but they do not strike me as warranting this character assassination they seem to be getting here and on the WotC boards.

[Andrew Cermak]

Post removed by Nathan of the Fraternity.

[Wiccy of the Fraternity]

I would like to point out that I have neverreally missed Soth, I have never been a big fan of the character, though I did enjoy the RL novels that featured him.

[Steve Miller]

Post removed by Nathan of the Fraternity.