Alchemic Child Questions

[A G Thing]

I have been working on a more playable version and am having trouble finding clarifying details on the fluff/crunch on Alchemic Children.

VRA says that they are loyal to their creators and that they are constructs but they also claim they are alive and that they have their own animating force.

If they are loyal is this because they are created with the same alignment as and have a mental bond with their creators or are they compelled such as with normal constructs? I always thought it was partially this but they had freewill like blade runner synthetics do, especially if raised and not just infused with memories or another creatures soul.

Does this animating force include a soul? Since they are alive can they be resurrected/reincarnated since they have to go into negatives to die? I don't get how they are considered any more alive than standard constructs.

I understand if you are playing up the inhuman aspects of them more due to the construct type for the horror but they are supposed to be "alive" and yet they are immune to mind-affecting effects, (charms, compulsions, morale effects, patterns, and phantasms) disease, death effects, necromancy effects, paralysis, poison, sleep effects, and stunning in pathfinder and critical hits, death from massive damage and sneak attacks in 3.5.

While I guess an alchemist would likely see this as an improvement on life this just seems like a well made more pretty flesh golem made of chemical stew rather than life.

I guess do any of you have a different perspective on them?

[DeepShadow of FoS]

The Lifelike special quality covers most of this to me; they are not actually alive, no more so than any other construct, they are just better at faking it.

[tomokaicho]

They are just extremely lifelike. In a way they are tragic too because they are probably capable of experiencing emotions but they are trapped by their unquenchable desire to serve their masters.

[Suvie]

My problem with the Alchemical Child is how cheap they are. 1000 gp + 5gp per 4 years of maturation = 1020gp for a sixteen year old duplicate, 1040 for a thirty-two year old. So, for the cost of a +1 sword, I can have a perfectly loyal henchman with a telepathic bond and the abilities of a 1st level warrior. Any living monsters we encounter, easy enough to get a flesh sample, and start adding ogres, trolls, etc.

[DeepShadow of FoS]

My problem with the Alchemical Child is how cheap they are. 1000 gp + 5gp per 4 years of maturation = 1020gp for a sixteen year old duplicate, 1040 for a thirty-two year old. So, for the cost of a +1 sword, I can have a perfectly loyal henchman with a telepathic bond and the abilities of a 1st level warrior. Any living monsters we encounter, easy enough to get a flesh sample, and start adding ogres, trolls, etc.

Yeah, I once considered applying for one of those free-for-all bring-your-sickest-build romps when they said they wanted 15th level characters and allowed classes and items from any world. I would have been like, "I want this teensy minor magic item from Toril that contains a dragon scale...and I'm spending the rest on alchemical equipment...and I'm very old..."

[Suvie]

Digging up the math on all of this brought me to my notes on the Barringtons club in our campaign. Posted on the main forum if anyone is interested.

[Rock of the Fraternity]

I always assumed alchemical children were biologically alive, but not spiritually alive; constructs crafted of living flesh, animated by the same forces as other constructs.

[A G Thing]

So, from what I am getting here from everyone is the whole "Not alive but just looks alive!" thing. No souls but emotions and minds and they are golems so not truly alive enough to be resurrected. Okay.

As for price... Well I respectfully disagree Suvie. I like that so called "Life" is cheap to produce. I also like that the soul or intelligence is not something that can be duplicated only transferred. The fact is though that unless you spend the extra effort to make them intelligent aging them up leaves you with a baby in an adult body.

Honestly an army won't work out because you can only make an "essential coagulant" from a dying creature once so you can't make multiple versions who are intelligent. If you want to clone a ton of adult ogres with baby intellects you can try to field them as an army but only one can have the intelligence of the original ogre. You can command them but that requires action on your part and they can only do their best which is the equivalent of a baby.

The reason why I question they are biologically alive Rock is mostly because they don't suffer any aspect of being alive. My long winded explanation of reasons why this is an issue is in the tag below.

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Sure they can bleed to death and replicate biological structures but are immune to critical hits, death from massive damage and sneak attacks? Doesn't make sense to me? They have a vascular system and a brain and a heart and yet none of it seems to matter. If you stab one in the head or even behead them by the rules it doesn't matter until they bleed to death. They might be blinded but they are not dead. Pathfinder partially fixes this in how they handle constructs so it is not that big an issue but using 3.5 alone it still is. They are ultimately constructs so massive damage or even such doesn't affect them. But they are supposed to replicate life so this should kill them especially if their blood helps these organs function. If the organs are not needed then the blood is all that is important which I guess I can accept. It is just a contradiction in how they are described to be lifelike but are not.

They can choose to breathe or eat or drink or sleep but they don't have to. They have no con, are immune to poison, disease and death effects? Life tends to have to consume or breathe or take in some resource to continue itself thus being at least vulnerable to something. But that is fine as they are made of alchemy so I can accept that the chemicals sustain them. It is just the other fact that alchemic formula affect them like living creatures that makes me question this too. Why does some alchemy affect them but poisons or other types do not? Why don't certain bacteria just devour the chemicals in them or affect their artificial genetics to make cancers or such in them? Guess it isn't hard to accept it as they are artificial but it is in contrast to life which they are supposed to mimic. Due to their lack of con as constructs they also should get bonus HP for being constructs so 20 bonus hp just for being medium by Pathfinder rules.

They grow and age but they don't have disease, chemical dependencies or natural microbes or other such things to cause the genetic damage to cause such. I would at least think they might be vulnerable to certain chemical poisons or diseases but whose to say. I guess I can accept this as well but with a vascular system and the ability to derive nutrition as well as age which requires cell division and chemical exchange it comes with certain vulnerabilities that should be expected.

I mean they have a nervous system. They don't become fatigued, exhausted, take stat damage or ability drain but they take subdual damage? They feel pain and even I would assume send impulses chemically to use their senses such as sight, taste, hearing, touch. But maybe that is just artificially replicating the appearance of such in a different way through complex artificial alchemy. But it does so by mimicking life. A living thing in too much pain would go into shock or if damaged may suffer permanent damage or such. They can be knocked out by being hit but not by spells or other chemicals that would knock out a living being? I guess I have to accept it as a difference but it doesn't make sense.

They have their own minds and animating forces but are also immune to mind-affecting effects, (charms, compulsions, morale effects, patterns, and phantasms) necromancy effects, paralysis? Not only this but their minds are not functioning that differently from the life they are based in part on. It does not say that they have some aberrant mindset and any failed alchemic children might just end up insane. They have emotions, they have moral alignment perspectives, they have the capacity to learn and grow mentally and they age so one could suspect they suffer aging effects. But by the above immunity's they just ignore all these effects that affect the lifeforms they are modeled after. So are they immune to fear, horror and madness saves or not? What if they have the mind of once living creature through an essential coagulant? Do they still despite having the mind and soul of a once living creature?

Since they don't normally have real souls I can see the necromancy effects not affecting them but they have minds with all their complexity so their outright immunity is scary but also less easy to swallow. But those who have been infused with an essential coagulant can be said to have souls so do they still qualify? Personally I would say yes and also no. Because they have a soul, some necromancy should probably be able to target that specifically but then they become constructs so somehow they gain their immunity to necromancy and mental effects? But it didn't change their souls or minds in any noticeable way so it must be in biological function. But souls are separate from biology and even their minds are based off of life they should function the same. I guess it is different but works the same? This is the biggest stretch for me personally. I mean when you resurrect someone into an alchemic child they are considered alive as that child but I guess only in that their soul is just stored inside the child in a place of control.

But I want to adapt them into a player playable form so I need to clarify these issues so I can either work around them or adapt them properly.

[DeepShadow of FoS]

As for price... Well I respectfully disagree Suvie. I like that so called "Life" is cheap to produce. I also like that the soul or intelligence is not something that can be duplicated only transferred. The fact is though that unless you spend the extra effort to make them intelligent aging them up leaves you with a baby in an adult body.

Well, you can play any way you want, but by the RAW they have normal intelligence for an adult. They have 1 level in an NPC class just as a "blank."

[Wolfglide of the Fraternity]

I personally consider an alchemical child to be a mimicry of life, designed based on the original structures but made with different material. This can allow for a few issues to be rectified.

They grow and age but they don't have disease, chemical dependencies or natural microbes or other such things to cause the genetic damage to cause such. I would at least think they might be vulnerable to certain chemical poisons or diseases but whose to say. I guess I can accept this as well but with a vascular system and the ability to derive nutrition as well as age which requires cell division and chemical exchange it comes with certain vulnerabilities that should be expected.

There are many real compounds that are chiral, meaning that they cannot be superimposed on their mirror images. Some of these chiral forms cannot react with the same things as their mirrors. There is a chance that differences in chemistry between planets could make it impossible to gain nourishment from nutritious matter not native to Earth. Along a similar vein, we do not need to worry about aliens coming here to eat us (unless it is a purely sadistic act), because their body chemistry is likely incompatible with our nutrients. If an alchemical child is operating under slightly different chemistry, it can very well be immune to all normal poisons and diseases, however there could well be poisons and diseases that work on alchemical life and not biological life. Alchemical children must share enough chemistry with us to be affected by alchemical formulae, but the similarity ends somewhere convenient for excusing their immunities.

They have their own minds and animating forces but are also immune to mind-affecting effects, (charms, compulsions, morale effects, patterns, and phantasms) necromancy effects, paralysis? Not only this but their minds are not functioning that differently from the life they are based in part on. It does not say that they have some aberrant mindset and any failed alchemic children might just end up insane. They have emotions, they have moral alignment perspectives, they have the capacity to learn and grow mentally and they age so one could suspect they suffer aging effects. But by the above immunity's they just ignore all these effects that affect the lifeforms they are modeled after. So are they immune to fear, horror and madness saves or not? What if they have the mind of once living creature through an essential coagulant? Do they still despite having the mind and soul of a once living creature?

Actually, they are explicitly stated to age, unless you create an enlightened child and give it the Idealized quality.
If they are built similarly to normal life but operate differently, they may be far enough afield from the standard categories that certain finer magics cannot affect them properly. Mind-affecting magic and necromancy are meant to affect the living (or the truly dead or undead in the case of the latter), and a mimicked lifeform is not the same. There are examples of intelligent constructs all over the place--Adam, maugs from the Fiend Folio, etc.--and the only difference is that alchemical life is closer to the real thing. It is tricky to argue about it, because defining the line between life and facsimile is a complex philosophical point. That is why we have the movie Short Circuit.
As for the saves, a new being has no frame of reference to judge if something is scary, terrible, or reality-defying, so an alchemical child without a soul is probably immune to fear, horror, and madness. However, an implanted soul comes in with a frame of reference for right and wrong, and can be afraid, horrified, or driven insane by what it experiences. In fact, I would say that a soulless alchemical child is fully capable of being taught enough pain to learn fear, and can be indoctrinated with enough morals and knowledge of "the way things are" to be horrified or even perhaps maddened.

As for your other points, I don't have a definitive answer at this time.

[A G Thing]

Well, you can play any way you want, but by the RAW they have normal intelligence for an adult. They have 1 level in an NPC class just as a "blank."

My response to you good DeepShadow in this spoiler tag.

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Actually I think they would have by RAW the intelligence of the creature you copied as the only stats modified by the alchemic child template are Strength and Dexterity while removing Constitution. But having an intelligence score of an adult does not mean you have experiences or been taught anything, just the capability to understand such.

A copied creature is considered a 1st level warrior (Though I like giving them any NPC class level) and maybe they have slight muscle memory or such for how to handle their body or walk and I can give you that easily enough as they are physically the same. But by the rules it says they have no memory unless given one. They at least need to be taught some things if you are not giving them an essential coagulant as they have none of the memories that go with that muscle memory to know what to do with it. They don't gain further levels, skill ranks, feats or other features of the copied creature without the coagulant so why would they know anything else?

You are not teaching them their abc's in the tank while you make them so it has to happen once they leave the tank. It may happen just as fast as any child learns a new skill (Or faster thanks to the mental link) but they would not know how to read even if their body knows how to write. They may be able to say words but they have to learn to connect what the meaning of those words by learning in experience. I would stay it would require at least a month to make them passable people and thus gain their 1st levels skill ranks and feat plus languages but maybe even less if you want to play up unnatural curiosity and intelligence.

I personally consider an alchemical child to be a mimicry of life, designed based on the original structures but made with different material. This can allow for a few issues to be rectified.

True and I agree I just want to clarify how close of a mimicry they are and I am glad to have others opinions and minds to help with it.

There are many real compounds that are chiral, meaning that they cannot be superimposed on their mirror images. Some of these chiral forms cannot react with the same things as their mirrors. There is a chance that differences in chemistry between planets could make it impossible to gain nourishment from nutritious matter not native to Earth. Along a similar vein, we do not need to worry about aliens coming here to eat us (unless it is a purely sadistic act), because their body chemistry is likely incompatible with our nutrients. If an alchemical child is operating under slightly different chemistry, it can very well be immune to all normal poisons and diseases, however there could well be poisons and diseases that work on alchemical life and not biological life. Alchemical children must share enough chemistry with us to be affected by alchemical formulae, but the similarity ends somewhere convenient for excusing their immunities.

I did consider chirality as an aspect but they are based off native biology and native components. I guess I would think they would if that was the case be better served then by some sort of huge bonus to their saves then a full immunity or give some sort of qualification for alchemically created poisons or diseases to affect them, though not remove their immunity to natural poisons or diseases.

Actually, they are explicitly stated to age, unless you create an enlightened child and give it the Idealized quality.

True and I did know that, but that variation changes a quality of the base product of the discussion so I was not adding it as I was trying not to derail my point as it applied to alchemic children in general and not that specific subset. Non aging is just a feature to be added in my mind that doesn't really affect much until it is added.

If they are built similarly to normal life but operate differently, they may be far enough afield from the standard categories that certain finer magics cannot affect them properly. Mind-affecting magic and necromancy are meant to affect the living (or the truly dead or undead in the case of the latter), and a mimicked lifeform is not the same. There are examples of intelligent constructs all over the place--Adam, maugs from the Fiend Folio, etc.--and the only difference is that alchemical life is closer to the real thing. It is tricky to argue about it, because defining the line between life and facsimile is a complex philosophical point. That is why we have the movie Short Circuit.

True it is complex and I love Short Circut!

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But it is stated that their blood resembles quintessence which is said to be composed of life force or positive energy in game terms which is drawn from life. This substance even heals living creatures and damages undead who ingest or inject it. Now the lifelike quality does make the distinction that it is "more akin to quintessence than true blood" but this means it has qualities like both substances. I can only assume then that the differences would be clearly due to the changes from the aspects like quintessence. So that can rationalize the negative energy and necromancy aspects perhaps but it does not state it functions exactly like quintessence so perhaps its effects just become this immunity.

And yes there are other references for intelligent living constructs.

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Adam certainly sets a Ravenloft specific example which I can understand and agree with. He is even created for the same reason which is to create life so with that reminder I guess I could set this aside on that point. But he is also a more classic construct type to the point where he has raw magic immunity against any spells which target him so he is an extreme of a true living construct by virtue of the darkpowers and Mordenheim making him so.

There is also the fact that Warforged (From Eberron), who use the living construct subtype are not immune to mind influencing effects and form a middle ground as they have no biological creature parts but they are meant to mimic life and have similar if slightly differing intelligence but still qualify to be affected. Warforged also do have souls and are alive and can be raised and resurrected though some spells and effects act different for them.

Maugs are not formed at all to be living beings/constructs but gained sentience and independence while remaining artificial construct beings. Their mindset while comparable on a base level is alien enough to remove them from consideration in some regards but they are the opposite extreme from Adam as they were built to be constructs and gained sentience and freedom. They do not have any claim to a quantifiable soul in game terms but certainly are beings that could qualify for them.

Alchemic Children are closer to somewhere between Adam and Warforged it would seem in my mind.

As for the saves, a new being has no frame of reference to judge if something is scary, terrible, or reality-defying, so an alchemical child without a soul is probably immune to fear, horror, and madness. However, an implanted soul comes in with a frame of reference for right and wrong, and can be afraid, horrified, or driven insane by what it experiences. In fact, I would say that a soulless alchemical child is fully capable of being taught enough pain to learn fear, and can be indoctrinated with enough morals and knowledge of "the way things are" to be horrified or even perhaps maddened.

I guess I can see them being immune to other effects then natural fear, horror and madness saves and I might by this method argue that emotion based or morale bonuses and penalties from most natural sources can affect them too. And to address the confusion I am not arguing that due to a lack of a soul they are immune to such but more due to the fact that their nature as constructs seems to preclude this solidly on crunch of the construct type. We have hollow humans who lack souls and still get scared after all.

As for your other points, I don't have a definitive answer at this time.

That is fine. Only looking for food for thought and debate to work on it. Thank you for any thought you or others care to give to my topics and queries.

I guess I have only two more questions to add then.

Do alchemic children heal naturally despite not having constitution scores?

And in the same vein do they receive the effects of healing magic or items or require repair spells or perhaps do they receive half the benefits of either type of spell.

[Wolfglide of the Fraternity]

A copied creature is considered a 1st level warrior (Though I like giving them any NPC class level) and maybe they have slight muscle memory or such for how to handle their body or walk and I can give you that easily enough as they are physically the same. But by the rules it says they have no memory unless given one. They at least need to be taught some things if you are not giving them an essential coagulant as they have none of the memories that go with that muscle memory to know what to do with it.

Actually, with the mental bond that the child has with its creator it could reasonably come out with an understanding of grammar and maybe certain aspects of how the world works. The alchemist's memories and knowledge could bleed over the link during the forming. Even without transferring residual thoughts during creation, the mental link would be an amazing boon to teaching the child anything.

There is also the fact that Warforged (From Eberron), who use the living construct subtype are not immune to mind influencing effects and form a middle ground as they have no biological creature parts but they are meant to mimic life and have similar if slightly differing intelligence but still qualify to be affected. Warforged also do have souls and are alive and can be raised and resurrected though some spells and effects act different for them.

If you are going for a playable version of the alchemical child, it may be a good idea to add good aspects of the living construct subtype in to fix the discrepancies. I recently Frankensteined the Monster Manual II arcanaloth and Inajira together to make a set of statistics I was happy with, so a similar approach to the rules of lifelike constructs could be beneficial.

Do alchemic children heal naturally despite not having constitution scores?

And in the same vein do they receive the effects of healing magic or items or require repair spells or perhaps do they receive half the benefits of either type of spell.

Since they are based on life, I expect they must mimic tissue regeneration, even though I don't recall the rules explicitly stating it. As for healing them with magic, they would need the repair spells instead of the cure spells, but that is just based on a literal interpretation of the rules. If they are close enough to living, another option could be reasonable.

[Ender]

There is also the fact that Warforged (From Eberron), who use the living construct subtype are not immune to mind influencing effects and form a middle ground as they have no biological creature parts but they are meant to mimic life and have similar if slightly differing intelligence but still qualify to be affected. Warforged also do have souls and are alive and can be raised and resurrected though some spells and effects act different for them.

Just as a minor clarification: it is unknown if Warforged have souls. They can be resurrected, yes, but all divinatory attempts to determine whether or not they have a soul has been inconclusive. More than that, no Warforged soul has ever been found in Dolurrh. (Although it should be noted that one of the primary in-setting theories is that Warforged are using soul energy that already exists in Dolurrh after the memories have been wiped from time on the plane) Also, VRA was published in 2002, before the Eberron Campaign Setting introduced the Living Construct subtype.

And to address the confusion I am not arguing that due to a lack of a soul they are immune to such but more due to the fact that their nature as constructs seems to preclude this solidly on crunch of the construct type. We have hollow humans who lack souls and still get scared after all.

Well. So I tend to agree. But... to get a little pedantic here: fear effects aren't actually classified as mind-affecting nor are they classified as morale effects, at least not in 3.5. Now, this question actually came up in Pathfinder and actually made it into the FAQ where they eventually defined fear effects as mind-affecting. That distinction was never made in 3.5. On top of that, there's another problem where Ravenloft's Fear, Horror, and Madness saves are classified separately from general fear effects and mind-affecting effects. All FHM saves are will saves and any creature with INT 0 is immune to these.

Fear Saves have the following line of text: "anything that modifies saves against fear effects modifies Fear saves" and the failure results clearly use the progressive fear conditions.

Horror saves say: "Horror is a broader emotion that fear", which may explicitly decouple it from fear effects, depending on your reading. That said, Horror's first two minor fail states (Aversion and Fearstruck) both utilize fear conditions in their descriptions, but the next two (Frozen and Nauseated) do not. Likewise, the first moderate one (Nightmares) calls out a fear effect, but the others don't. To me, that actually says that it's only a fear effect if the specific failure result indicates it as such.

Madness saves don't state anything of the sort, but they all deal ability damage, which the construct type is immune to.

One might argue that FHM saves are all mind-affecting, and I would not disagree, but if we're only looking at RAW, then I'm not certain that's the case.

Do alchemic children heal naturally despite not having constitution scores?

And in the same vein do they receive the effects of healing magic or items or require repair spells or perhaps do they receive half the benefits of either type of spell.

I think the answer is definitively no. They are constructs, first and foremost. The only change that Lifelike makes in this regard is that they can take both bleeding and subdual damage. Normal healing methods still would not work on them per the construct type. But! They are considered living with respect to alchemical formulae, so they could be healed by consuming Quintessence.

[A G Thing]

Just as a minor clarification: it is unknown if Warforged have souls. They can be resurrected, yes, but all divinatory attempts to determine whether or not they have a soul has been inconclusive. More than that, no Warforged soul has ever been found in Dolurrh. (Although it should be noted that one of the primary in-setting theories is that Warforged are using soul energy that already exists in Dolurrh after the memories have been wiped from time on the plane) Also, VRA was published in 2002, before the Eberron Campaign Setting introduced the Living Construct subtype.

True but they also can be clerics and are affected by spells that affect the soul. (such as Soul Jar or Soul Bind which do not fall under their immunities) I would assume no matter a lack of clarification that they at least have the qualities of a soul if not the specific distinction of those qualities to have it be outright called a soul. But a rose by any other name.

Also as Eberron tends to view their gods just as distantly as Ravenloft does in that even seemingly false religions can grant spells (The Lord of Blades own religion works on this principal) I think this works for them in the argument of if their form of souls count. At least in comparison to Ravenloft and how the dark powers would view them should they come there. Others may not agree though and I can see an argument against their soul but not really from a mechanics stand point as they are written.

Well. So I tend to agree. But... to get a little pedantic here: fear effects aren't actually classified as mind-affecting nor are they classified as morale effects, at least not in 3.5. Now, this question actually came up in Pathfinder and actually made it into the FAQ where they eventually defined fear effects as mind-affecting. That distinction was never made in 3.5. On top of that, there's another problem where Ravenloft's Fear, Horror, and Madness saves are classified separately from general fear effects and mind-affecting effects. All FHM saves are will saves and any creature with INT 0 is immune to these.

Fear Saves have the following line of text: "anything that modifies saves against fear effects modifies Fear saves" and the failure results clearly use the progressive fear conditions.

Horror saves say: "Horror is a broader emotion that fear", which may explicitly decouple it from fear effects, depending on your reading. That said, Horror's first two minor fail states (Aversion and Fearstruck) both utilize fear conditions in their descriptions, but the next two (Frozen and Nauseated) do not. Likewise, the first moderate one (Nightmares) calls out a fear effect, but the others don't. To me, that actually says that it's only a fear effect if the specific failure result indicates it as such.

Madness saves don't state anything of the sort, but they all deal ability damage, which the construct type is immune to.

One might argue that FHM saves are all mind-affecting, and I would not disagree, but if we're only looking at RAW, then I'm not certain that's the case.

Be pedantic. It helps!

And thank you for the clarification on the subject. I tend to think in Ravenloft that these save types are the only three that should be assumed that you cannot be granted immunity to by anything short of the Dark-Powers (DM) themselves and only in short and rare specific circumstances. I just am glad to have a bit of a precedent for if it has been covered in the rules somewhere or the perspective of other Ravenloft fans on how the rules in setting should be interpreted.

I don't think I will argue for them being the same as other mind affecting effects. Especially as it would be too big of a setting breaking benefit should a player choose to start as an Alchemic Child as their race.

I think the answer is definitively no. They are constructs, first and foremost. The only change that Lifelike makes in this regard is that they can take both bleeding and subdual damage. Normal healing methods still would not work on them per the construct type. But! They are considered living with respect to alchemical formulae, so they could be healed by consuming Quintessence.

I agree in part. They probably should not be able to naturally heal. But I worry that preventing them from healing at all through any other means makes them unplayable at 1st level. True they are probably not originally intended to be playable at 1st level in the original design but even after that this would become a real problem. Quintessence is only 3x the cost of a 1st level healing potion for about 3x the effect so not a big deal but forcing other characters to memorize repair spells just to heal you is. Party dynamic wise this is not going to be easy to deal with if these are the only methods you have to heal them. (Those spells need to do a lot more than that!) The alchemic child's player also might not want to play a caster just to have the mechanics to be sure they can heal themselves. They might and that is fine but it starts to affect the roleplay options when those decisions make you unable to play the character you want with a race.

Other construct types heal (take damage, gain benefits or penalties) when certain magic similar to those essential to their creation or their flavor is cast upon them. Since the alchemic child is an alchemic construct you may argue against that but no construct made in Ravenloft even needs magic, just the will of the creator, the substance it is made of and the allowance of the dark powers. I could see magic still affecting them at least in part especially since they do not have golem levels of magic resistance and they are made using life as a basis from flesh taken from another creature.

I would also argue that since their main alchemic substance resembles quintessence which is stated to be positive energy based that they should gain perhaps only half the benefit of any non alchemic healing magic or even non alchemic repair spells (rounded down) due to their complexity and the altered way magic affects them. The idea of them requiring quintessence to properly heal or maybe an alchemist to provide healing that way makes enough sense to me to make it penalizing to play one but not unplayable should the party not have an alchemist or be unable to find a source of alchemic healing for the wounded Alchemic Child. It would also draw attention to them and provide a way of exposing them or making other characters suspicious if they could not heal normally. Maybe even get them called cursed by the people who view them as unnatural without knowing how right they are.

Thank you for the responses everyone! They have really helped my thought process!

[Ender]

True but they also can be clerics and are affected by spells that affect the soul. (such as Soul Jar or Soul Bind which do not fall under their immunities) I would assume no matter a lack of clarification that they at least have the qualities of a soul if not the specific distinction of those qualities to have it be outright called a soul. But a rose by any other name.

Also as Eberron tends to view their gods just as distantly as Ravenloft does in that even seemingly false religions can grant spells (The Lord of Blades own religion works on this principal) I think this works for them in the argument of if their form of souls count. At least in comparison to Ravenloft and how the dark powers would view them should they come there. Others may not agree though and I can see an argument against their soul but not really from a mechanics stand point as they are written.

Eh, it comes down to setting differences. In Eberron, divine magic is powered by faith. The gods may not actually exist at all. Divine forces, like the Silver Flame and the Undying Court do exist, but they are formed from sacrifice and worship, respectively. I'm not really arguing that Warforged don't have souls, but rather that it's ambiguous from the setting's perspective. Mechanically, they are treated as having souls with respect to effects that work with souls. The reason for this, though, is debatable given the setting's slight differences from normal D&D logic. But, again, that's all semantics. The game views them as having souls, or an equivalent.

I don't think I will argue for them being the same as other mind affecting effects. Especially as it would be too big of a setting breaking benefit should a player choose to start as an Alchemic Child as their race.

Wait... oops. I see I missed the premise of this whole thing where you're looking to make a playable version of the Alchemical Child. Good job, me.

I agree in part. They probably should not be able to naturally heal. But I worry that preventing them from healing at all through any other means makes them unplayable at 1st level. True they are probably not originally intended to be playable at 1st level in the original design but even after that this would become a real problem. Quintessence is only 3x the cost of a 1st level healing potion for about 3x the effect so not a big deal but forcing other characters to memorize repair spells just to heal you is. Party dynamic wise this is not going to be easy to deal with if these are the only methods you have to heal them. (Those spells need to do a lot more than that!) The alchemic child's player also might not want to play a caster just to have the mechanics to be sure they can heal themselves. They might and that is fine but it starts to affect the roleplay options when those decisions make you unable to play the character you want with a race.

Other construct types heal (take damage, gain benefits or penalties) when certain magic similar to those essential to their creation or their flavor is cast upon them. Since the alchemic child is an alchemic construct you may argue against that but no construct made in Ravenloft even needs magic, just the will of the creator, the substance it is made of and the allowance of the dark powers. I could see magic still affecting them at least in part especially since they do not have golem levels of magic resistance and they are made using life as a basis from flesh taken from another creature.

I would also argue that since their main alchemic substance resembles quintessence which is stated to be positive energy based that they should gain perhaps only half the benefit of any non alchemic healing magic or even non alchemic repair spells (rounded down) due to their complexity and the altered way magic affects them. The idea of them requiring quintessence to properly heal or maybe an alchemist to provide healing that way makes enough sense to me to make it penalizing to play one but not unplayable should the party not have an alchemist or be unable to find a source of alchemic healing for the wounded Alchemic Child. It would also draw attention to them and provide a way of exposing them or making other characters suspicious if they could not heal normally. Maybe even get them called cursed by the people who view them as unnatural without knowing how right they are.

In light of my realization that you're trying to make a playable version, let me reframe some of my response. It's true that RAW, an Alchemical Child would not be able to heal normally. But if you want to play it at 1st level, you're right: it needs a little tweak and alteration. And, frankly, I think the easiest way to do it is to replace Lifelike with the Living Construct subtype as a whole, but say that repair spells also only heal half, just like healing magic, while Quintessence fully restores them. If you want to make them a tad more Construct than not, you can check out the Warforged Juggernaut prestige class where a Warforged gradually becomes more and more construct-like. There are four levels of the Construct Perfection ability, each one solidifying its Construct nature. You could use those four sets of abilities as a good breakdown of "closeness to construct" when altering the Alchemical Child to suit your needs.

ADDENDUM: The Reforged prestige class is pretty much the reverse of the Warforged Juggernaut, highlighting a progression that brings a living construct even closer to a living thing, which may also help you choose where the Alchemical Child falls on the sliding scale of Construct to Humanoid.