It is back!!! What we do know about VR Guide to Ravenloft?

[Igor the Henchman]

The latest Dragon Talk has info on Tepest, and I've got mixed feelings about this one. In its previous incarnation, it was probably my favorite Ravenloft domain. Despite its small size, it was one of the richest Core realms in terms of themes and adventure possibilities. This new Tepest feels tightly wound around a single theme, which though quite horrific, is also very predictable. I'm sure genre-savvy players (like mine) will see the "twist" coming a mile away. Also I'm really sad they didn't keep the Inquisition.

[Zilfer]

Youtube video flips through the book it's just clear enough to occasionally read, or make out the words. Anyone wanting to extract information can flip through the video like I did last night and get an idea of what changes they made to domains. Some of them are a lot. Watch and Discuss?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UqKSZSx ... L&index=35

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

Thanks for posting that, Zilfer.

I've seen a lot of tidbits pulled from the video on the Discord discussion. Haven't watched the video itself, and I'm thinking if it's that in-depth I'd rather just wait for the book at this point, over watching someone else flip through it, but that's just me.

[Dion of the Fraternity]

Caught a glimpse of some extracts from the video:

Kalakeri's (Sri Raji) new darklord is a death knight.

Chakuna (new female darklord of Valachan) killed Urik von Kharkov, so there's at least continuity there.

Cyre 1313's darklord is "The Last Passenger."

Niranjan is an offshoot of Kalakeri.

Zherisia is now just one domain combining Paridon and Timor, with Sodo as darklord.

[Zilfer]

There's plenty more to catch if you want to spend the time. I spent over an hour or so "flipping through it" shall we say and reading blurry text.

Azalin is gone, his exact fate has MANY different options as to what happened so it's left rather vague in Firan Zal'honen's stuff. It seems like this a prime time if you ever wanted to run Azalin as he was during the first book where we was split in two. His human side and lich side. The mini darklords of a completely broken apart Darkon are Baron Metus (No this is actually Baron Metus' sister who found out about Van Richten killing her brother many years later, joined the Kargat and is now the head of the Kargat, going by the name Baron Metus for her brothers status.) Another mini darklord is Dracalus (sp?) The head of the Eternal Order is feeding this entity which is slowly corrupting the Eternal Order from what I could tell reading the blurry text. The last one is Madam (something) Eris. That first name seems almost like Tavelia but a slightly bigger name and mixed up but could be wrong. She's more in control of the nobility of Il Aluk I believe. The Shroud still exists, though it is more of a DM's tool that can show up anywhere from the mists leaking in. (It's encouraged to use it NOT to kill the NPC's but damage them, and show that Darkon is slowly breaking apart and collapsing into the mists) Several hooks suggest ways to save darkon, destroy it, bring azalin back to reform it, make one of the new mini lords the new darklord, ect ect combined with multiple fates of what happened to Azalin in truth.
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Plenty more but that's what I had time to type here at work. Richemulot's Jacqueline Renier has a much different backstory IMO as well. It plays more into the "Become Plague" dread possibility for the whole domain now.

[nothri]

"You had me until you decided the Van Richten's Guides were in any way addressing and confronting the more problematic of the inherent cliches in gothic horror."

If it makes you feel any better, if I still had you I would have tossed you back where you came from anyway. And yes, that is indeed the statement I made. Because it is true.

"The same guides that had hags be literally Chaotic Evil from birth, which is why they're all misogynistic stereotypes before they undergo the Change."

Yes, I can still why you might find that objectionable. I do hope you aren't trying to pretend that your lone example somehow makes my general statement that about the guides invalid. There are currently 12 volues to the Van Richten's Guides. Sometimes they succeeded in enriching the setting and expanding the monsters and the world beyond the sterotypes and cliches. Sometimes they failed. For an example for a suceessful abandonment of a cliche that I already gave you, see how the guide to the ancient dead took the mummy antagonist out of egypt, so to speak.

"I would respectfully disagree with that post - it's quite clear from an article on Falkovnia on IGN (https://www.ign.com/articles/dnd-ravenl ... apocalypse) that 5e Ravenloft is leaning into being a frankly weird demiplane the more secrets you uncover, and aiming for an eerie, dreamlike feel as a stated design goal - but note that it is cutting the old Hammer Horror adherence free, and I get how that is a bit of a shift."

Completely rewriting domains wholesale and literally replacing one character with another completely different character isn't a bit of a shift. Its a chainsaw being used in place of a scalpel.

"But this?

This is nostalgia goggles something bad."

Looks more like an attempt to undermine my broad point with one cherry picked example where it wasn't true while ignoring all the times when my statement is applicable, including the example I made in the comment. Nice try, I guess.

"I like the Guides, but frankly, contempt for, say, the Guide to the Vistani is the kind of opinion that gives me more faith in the writers, not less. Because the Vistani, when it comes down to it, are based on real people - and not even that far separated from them, as seen by the name of the Kalderesh tasque. To admit that wasn't okay? That it wasn't okay to reduce an entire living country to a background for a single village in the desert it was damn hard to actually be from? That's what confronting problematic tropes is. Don't just admit they exist - actually put in the work to improve them in some way."

If the reason you are making this statement is that you want to imply that I am opposed to attempts to clean up the depictions of the Vistani in the material, then I will kindly ask you to stop putting words in my goddamn mouth and stop ignoring what I actually said in the original comment. Although I will fully admit I don't envy anyone the task of doing so- depicting the Vistani in a way that doesn't scream 'Romani' seems like it'd be an uphill battle to me given the overall setting of Barovia. It'd be like someone trying to convince the audience that Har'Akir isn't an egyptian setting.

"Boris Karloff was a good actor, and I loved Imhotep. He was also a very white actor, playing someone who was from Africa. That's what they mean by Orientalism; to make a character who is supposed to be from a very specific culture and giving us only the perspective of an outsider claiming to be an insider. It wasn't his fault; it was the 1930s, even people who had the best of intentions didn't know any better. But now? From the perspective of a culture that is realizing that many of the common names that we have for the Pesedjet weren't even translations from Egyptian, but Greek (the Scroll of Thoth should really be the Scroll of Khemenu - or Sakhmet, to invoke a goddess who would actually be someone who provides eternal life), making Ankhtepot look like a mummy who actually resembles what an Egyptian would think of as someone imitating a god is the bare minimum of what to do."

I'm well aware of the criticism they were trying to level regarding ethnicity. And as I said, it was a bad criticism that wasn't applicable to Ravenloft, since no description of Ankhtepot has ever implied an ethnicity and every portrait shows him as a walking corpse with any trace of ethnicity lost under rot and bandages. Also, why would they call it anything other than the Book of Thoth? The movies are obviously based off the Ancient Egyptian story "Setne Khamwas and Naneferkaptah", and correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the life granting scroll depicted in that story written by Thoth (or Djehuty, if you prefer) and even referred to as the Book or Scroll of Thoth in the text? Also, can I assume when you say the Pesedjet you are referring to the "main" one that includes Ra, Set, Isis and Osiris...or are you talking about one of the less well known ones such as the Ogdoad you were mentioning a moment ago?

"Oh, and I can't help but notice, when defending Victor Mordenheim's masculinity, you seemed to have missed something: In OG Ravenloft, the darklord of Lamordia was the mad scientist's monster. That's not just a waste of potential - that's outright ignoring Mary Shelly, the original creator herself. The very fact the darklord is the person who actually holds the blame seems to imply that no, if it's a chainsaw they're using, it's because they're amputating a dead limb and giving the tree more room to grow. In fact, the doctor being a woman might actually be a better Frankenstein stand-in, if you take the theory that the Monster was a metaphor for an unwanted pregnancy and parental abandonment. (Byron was a jerk.)"

Defending the character, not the gender, thank you very much (see previous comment about words and how you need to stop putting them in my goddamned mouth). Also, everything I said about Mordenheim applies to Adam as well- really, you can't have one without the other, as the curse makes abundantly clear. And if they wanted to make a new domain with a new female darklord exploring those ideas you mention, all the best to them. But that's not what they want to do. They want to erase two well established characters and replace them with two new, completely different characters. And I don't believe any reason they have for doing so could not be accomplished while still sparing the already established character from oblivion.

"Frankly, horror has evolved since the 80s and 90s. And thank God for that, even from a horror fan perspective without considering more social awareness of how awful a lot of gothic horror tropes were. We wouldn't have movies like Get Out (the horror of "positive" racism taken to it logical extension), or The VVitch (the ability of strictly patriarchal power structures to create their own monsters when anything else seems like a good alternative) if we didn't admit that yes, that kind of horror exists in the real world, and it's scary."

Again, this is entirely true, and again it can be done (hell, has been done!) in the setting without abandoning established concepts that make for a good story in their own right.

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

MODERATOR VOICE:
Leliel, nothri: knock it off.
We can have a debate on the merits of a book without making personal attacks on each other. Leliel, you toed the line in your post, and I chose not to say anything at the time, hoping it was mild enough that it would blow over. But clearly it struck a nerve for nothri, so we should have stopped it then and steered thing back on track. nothri, I do apologize for letting Leliel's comments slide that have offended you, but you've gone over the line with your post, whether you feel justified in doing so or not.

If you feel that words are being put in your mouth, or you are otherwise being maligned by another poster, alert the mods. Don't take retribution publicly. Contrary to what it may seem in certain corners of the internet, civil discourse need not be dead. Disagree with the points someone is making, but don't call out the person, please. Our "no flaming" rule may seem quaint, but it's our rule and we're sticking to it.
THE END

[FiranDarcalus]

On a more positive note, I have to say, I was a cheater and looked at the book from Zilfer's link. I swear, I can never wait for things!! I really liked the art for some of the images, specifically the ones that are not Darklord related. Have to say wasn't really impressed with the portraits of some of the Darklords. But the other artwork was cool. I really liked the spirit board (that is obviously a Wes Schenider fav as it is in the Pathfinder Carrion Crown adventure path).

From just skimming some of the things in the reveal on YouTube, it looks like the rules for running a horror setting and such seem pretty well thought out (granted I couldn't really read it thoroughly).

Was SUPER HAPPY to see Ezra is still around, though changed up a bit. Sad to see that they really emphasized that there is no connection between domains; was hoping they would at least give sort of an option to say that we could put the domains together if we liked. Also liked that they give the option of having domain specific languages. I'm interested in the mist tokens to travel between domains. Wonder how that works.

I died a little inside when I saw Azalin is basically gone (waaaah). I don't want human Firan....I want my Azalin. And was pretty disappointed they did away with Death.

Borca looked really cool....didn't really read into it but seems like Ivana is more than just a poisoner now. Zifler, did you read anything more about Borca when you were going through the video? I couldn't really make much out on that one.

All in all, though I certainly have concerns, I'm really excited for the book now....we may not like the changes to Ravenloft, but they clearly cared about the world and though we may disagree with their vision, I'm glad it looks like they didn't just make it for a cash grab. Also, very subtle, but they called Azalin Rex, which is a slight shoutout to 3rd edition material, as I believe, and someone correct me if I'm wrong, but he was only called that in the 3rd edition White Wolf products. Also Malocchio does not seem to be a Dukkar anymore....just Gabby's spoiled son who she wants to give the best upbringing for. Of course, Invidia was only a tiny paragraph. Also, Nova Vaasa is no longer ruled by Sir Tristen, but Myar Hiregaard, who is now a woman.

Anyway, looking forward to this book

[Zilfer]

^I can attempt to read the blurry text that is borca. Give me a few.
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Edit: Levkarest has an 'ineffective government' of 'People's Parliment'. Grand Cathedral is still there worshiping Ezra however beneath the cathedral is a secret(?) society that cultivates Psionic powers to determine the evil in people's souls before it comes to fruition? (Is that minority report vibes there?)

Sturben has the "Faceless Court" and seems to be the place most people bring people to face justice. Really hard to read this part sorry.

There is a side bar with like 12 different noble families. Ritter.... why is that familiar. (It of course has Boritsi, and Dilisnya)

Noble families expected to hold at least 2 balls annually (each). Ivana has a massive collection of poisons (no surprise there.)

Ivana's past is kinda the same, she had siblings however (brothers), and a father named Klaus. Doesn't look like Ermordenung factor into her poisoning of her mother and instead she relies on perfume as the delievery for poison to keep things under wraps. She killed her mother for seducing her lover Pieter (think that's the same) then her brothers to force her father Klaus to name her heir to Borca however he instead named Ivan Dilisnya instead of her, and she killed him when he told her this. (seems implied he was weak and dying when he summoned her possibly she was already poisoning him and he might have figured out just enough? Just a guess from reading between lines.)

She also seems to have cultivated many types of flowers. (including ones that are loyal to her. Might be interesting to give her a loyal doppelganger plant then?)

Just thought of this. Poison Ivy Vibes anyone?

Ivan is different. They played up his childishness? He's an old man, the picture makes it seem worse than the text makes it out to be. He's a bit of a tinkerer, good enough that he can make toys that are life like enough to fool people for years without being revealed from the sounds of it. His history is basically that his family wanted him to become the head of the joint family Boritsi-Dilisnya line but since he continued to act childish his entire life (even going so far to talk in child like voice sometimes), that they were going to switch to giving his sister a chance sending her off to a prestigious university I think I'm seeing. Well he caught wind and didn't like that the night the mists came in he was the only remaining one of his family left alive in the house after much mechanical noises in the house. (his toys probably killed the family)

Ivana still has the cannot understand love though she's looking for an 'equal' that she might be able to possibly love. (However she thinks she's better than everyone else.) Ivan still thinks Ivana is keeping eternal youth from him like the old version.

Under Adventure Ideas, Nostalgia makes a return but it simply says her blood was replaced with poison by Ivana. (so not gone, just possibly not the tool she used to kill her mother, though it's vague enough for that to still be true.) A hook that I kinda enjoy is they mention someone looking for the Book "The Revelations of the Twilight Prince" that allows you to tap into the power of your shadow. (Little different than the original but easter egg is welcome.)

Ivana's got skill with poison to make up to 7th level spell effects into her poisons, and Ivan apparently can send you secret messages that appear near you every long rest. Delievery is never observed so might as well be teleporting them to you. Anyways that's just what I caught out of the chapter.

[FiranDarcalus]

^I can attempt to read the blurry text that is borca. Give me a few.
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Edit: Levkarest has an 'ineffective government' of 'People's Parliment'. Grand Cathedral is still there worshiping Ezra however beneath the cathedral is a secret(?) society that cultivates Psionic powers to determine the evil in people's souls before it comes to fruition? (Is that minority report vibes there?)

Sturben has the "Faceless Court" and seems to be the place most people bring people to face justice. Really hard to read this part sorry.

There is a side bar with like 12 different noble families. Ritter.... why is that familiar. (It of course has Boritsi, and Dilisnya)

(more to come)

Sounds really cool so far. I was able to make out the families as well. Did you notice the Tatenna family there? Easter Egg to the jerk patriarch of the Tatenna family from the Chilling Tales adventure (believe it was called Undying Justice).

Borca sounds really intriguing to be honest...almost better than 3rd edition Borca. I actually liked the artwork for Ivana, though Ivan's looked...weird. Was that a spider bed or something? Had trouble making it out.

[Zilfer]

It's a four legged cribbish looking thing? I think it's far to alien and distracting for Ivan, but I think it's partly to A) creep you out, and B) showcase he makes a lot of toy inventions that are creepy.

[Igor the Henchman]

The more time I spend squint-reading the youtube preview, the closer I'm coming to the realization that we might soon owe Drinnik Shoehorn an apology.

This is bringing back memories of Expedition to Castle Ravenloft: well beyond a simple reboot, and more like an out-of-control bizarro universe.

[Drinnik Shoehorn]

The more time I spend squint-reading the youtube preview, the closer I'm coming to the realization that we might soon owe Drinnik Shoehorn an apology.

This is bringing back memories of Expedition to Castle Ravenloft: less like a reboot and more lika an out-of-control bizarro universe.

20 years... 20 years I've been waiting for you to say that, Iggy...

On the one hand, reading that Urik has been replaced in game, and did once exist gives me some hope.

I'm genuinely 50/50 on getting this, because some of what's interesting is there; but on the other hand it's just lazy, boring writing.

[Zilfer]

The more time I spend squint-reading the youtube preview, the closer I'm coming to the realization that we might soon owe Drinnik Shoehorn an apology.

This is bringing back memories of Expedition to Castle Ravenloft: less like a reboot and more lika an out-of-control bizarro universe.

20 years... 20 years I've been waiting for you to say that, Iggy...

On the one hand, reading that Urik has been replaced in game, and did once exist gives me some hope.

I'm genuinely 50/50 on getting this, because some of what's interesting is there; but on the other hand it's just lazy, boring writing.

Yeah I'll be curating what i use out of it basically, but just excited to see some different ideas on it. Lol I mean, I would have never thought of Lyssa Von Zarovich as being the reborn Tatyana. The suggestion definitely got the wheels in my head turning.

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

Sounds really cool so far. I was able to make out the families as well. Did you notice the Tatenna family there? Easter Egg to the jerk patriarch of the Tatenna family from the Chilling Tales adventure (believe it was called Undying Justice).

It was! Now that's a deep cut.... the adventure is a personal fave, but I don't think it's ever been referenced outside of that one book.