It is back!!! What we do know about VR Guide to Ravenloft?

[Cromstar]

I saw somewhere that the new Hiregaard is the daughter of Sir Tristan

Not so much, it would seem:

An unparalleled warrior, Myar Hiregaard united the nomadic tribes of the vast plains of Nova Vaasa. But, while respected as a soldier, Myar made a poor peacetime leader. When brutal games could no longer keep her interest, she incited hostilities between two of her vassal tribes, then led her own forces to crush them. Subtly, she did this again and again. After Myar's greatest massacre, the Mists enfolded all of Nova Vaasa, splitting Myar's personality in two when they did. Now she rules her people with strict fairness, but when her bloodlust is piqued, she transforms into the raging knight called Malken and sows discord across the plains.

....the gender swap doesn't really matter to me here, but I don't understand what about this is supposed to be a) horror or b) a curse for this Hiregaard. Nothing about this actually sounds *interesting* in the Ravenloft setting and also skirts a little bit too close to Diamabel in my opinion. Also takes away one of the better parts of Hiregaard, that he wasn't the political ruler of Nova Vaasa. Too many darklords are the political leaders of their domains and that's boring and predictable, when nearly all of them are.

Some of the new ideas are definitely interesting and I'm debating if I want to shell out the cash to buy this. Since I'm already thinking of a way to back-port the new Dementlieu into the original as a second, major city in the nation that is a separate domain (I'm thinking along the lines of New York High Society, as opposed to Port Lucine's Philly-as-capital, which allows for that 'everyone struggles to maintain the facade for fear of exposure' without...affecting the rest of Dementlieu society entirely).

Overall, they've clearly put thought into what they want this version of Ravenloft to be. Some of that was already constrained by WOTC and some of it is from the RL team's decisions and its definitely...a mixed bag over all. Honestly, my complaint with the race/gender changes is mostly the seeming randomness, especially in light of the fact that they changed some of the existing characters, some were just replaced by other characters (with or without the same names), and others had their stories 'progressed' to provide natural replacements. Its just strange to me that they'd advance, like, half the domain and character plots and leave others completely untouched by time.

The reason this kind of thing baffles me is that splitting the difference like that is just about guaranteed to split the existing fanbase on a product, which for an already niche product is rarely a good thing. You have to appeal to new buyers, but a big part of that is endorsements and praise from the already existing fanbase. Not fully committing to one or the other version for the existing fans won't be magically problem-free, but it would at least be a commitment, I think? Its less egregious than some other media companies have been with their brands, but I am still a bit confused why some people occasionally think the best plan is to throw everyone a bone, but also kick their dog in the process. Probably haven't really explained what I mean in this paragraph I'm realizing, but trying to explain it better seems to be eluding me.

[Mephisto of the FoS]

Happy Mother Lorinda's Day!!!

[Mephisto of the FoS]

Happy Mother Lorinda's Day!!!

Viktal now is the only surviving settlement, no Inquisition exists on the other hand it is more like the Wiccaman movie. Funny wrote something similar but tied up with the Green Lady in Falkovnia. That is what bothers me more in this new reboot, it is the basic idea of having each horror genre concept tied to a specific domain while in the past (especially in 3E) you had more diversion in the domains itself.

[Jester of the FoS]

The reason this kind of thing baffles me is that splitting the difference like that is just about guaranteed to split the existing fanbase on a product, which for an already niche product is rarely a good thing. You have to appeal to new buyers, but a big part of that is endorsements and praise from the already existing fanbase. Not fully committing to one or the other version for the existing fans won't be magically problem-free, but it would at least be a commitment, I think? Its less egregious than some other media companies have been with their brands, but I am still a bit confused why some people occasionally think the best plan is to throw everyone a bone, but also kick their dog in the process. Probably haven't really explained what I mean in this paragraph I'm realizing, but trying to explain it better seems to be eluding me.

And that's the thing... 40% of D&D's fans right now are new. Only something like 20% were around during the 2e/3e days and only a fraction will remember Ravenloft. D&D has had explosive growth with new players.
So they don't need to care about placating the old fans or making content for them.
We're not only niche, we're superfluous compared to the new kids joining the game.

[Mephisto of the FoS]

And that's the thing... 40% of D&D's fans right now are new. Only something like 20% were around during the 2e/3e days and only a fraction will remember Ravenloft.

What is the remaining 40%?

Anyway 20% is still a big number to ignore when you want to sell a product.

[FiranDarcalus]

The reason this kind of thing baffles me is that splitting the difference like that is just about guaranteed to split the existing fanbase on a product, which for an already niche product is rarely a good thing. You have to appeal to new buyers, but a big part of that is endorsements and praise from the already existing fanbase. Not fully committing to one or the other version for the existing fans won't be magically problem-free, but it would at least be a commitment, I think? Its less egregious than some other media companies have been with their brands, but I am still a bit confused why some people occasionally think the best plan is to throw everyone a bone, but also kick their dog in the process. Probably haven't really explained what I mean in this paragraph I'm realizing, but trying to explain it better seems to be eluding me.

And that's the thing... 40% of D&D's fans right now are new. Only something like 20% were around during the 2e/3e days and only a fraction will remember Ravenloft. D&D has had explosive growth with new players.
So they don't need to care about placating the old fans or making content for them.
We're not only niche, we're superfluous compared to the new kids joining the game.

Didn't know that stat....that explains things quite a bit. Unfortunately, we have become the dinosaurs! At least we still have your awesome DM's Guild books Jester! I'm still using Heroes of the Mist as my core book.

Ravenloft always has been a niche product anyway. What I find fascinating is that they are at least somewhat nodding to the past by including things like using the term Hour of the Ascension, or including random families like the Tatenna family in Borca, etc. Aside from the awful Darklord artwork (aside from Ivana), I think we might all end up being more pleasantly surprised by this book than we think. I really like the inclusion of the spirit board (aka Ouija board). A nice atmospheric gothic inclusion that past Ravenloft editions, as far as I recall, never really used.

[Cromstar]

The reason this kind of thing baffles me is that splitting the difference like that is just about guaranteed to split the existing fanbase on a product, which for an already niche product is rarely a good thing. You have to appeal to new buyers, but a big part of that is endorsements and praise from the already existing fanbase. Not fully committing to one or the other version for the existing fans won't be magically problem-free, but it would at least be a commitment, I think? Its less egregious than some other media companies have been with their brands, but I am still a bit confused why some people occasionally think the best plan is to throw everyone a bone, but also kick their dog in the process. Probably haven't really explained what I mean in this paragraph I'm realizing, but trying to explain it better seems to be eluding me.

And that's the thing... 40% of D&D's fans right now are new. Only something like 20% were around during the 2e/3e days and only a fraction will remember Ravenloft. D&D has had explosive growth with new players.
So they don't need to care about placating the old fans or making content for them.
We're not only niche, we're superfluous compared to the new kids joining the game.

I mean...yes and no. Sure, they can completely ignore it, but I'm pretty sure history shows that favorable mentions from an existing fan base are one of the best ways to draw in new fans (this is why brand ambassadors and the like exist, to be advocates and promote something). With niche media, which D&D still is at the end of the day, word-of-mouth is absolutely the best form of advertisement. If you're a new D&D player and you're like 'what's the Ravenloft thing about?' and a quick google search just turns up negative reactions, its a turn off. Plus, those numbers are skewed because they...don't account for people who haven't moved on; WOTC has no way to count the number of people playing D&D, but aren't buying their books. Sure, maybe 40% of people purchasing current books are new to 5th edition...but there's a lot of people who play D&D (or now, something like Pathfinder), who are *also* part of the target audience. I'm not included in those numbers, for example, because I personally haven't purchased any D&D products (or done anything else that would enable WOTC to statistically count me) because 4e products were very bad quality or useless for me, and 5e has only produced two items I was even a little interested in: Curse of Strahd and this. I didn't purchase Strahd because, at the end of the day, I'm never actually going to run a Ravenloft game anytime soon, so shelling out the money for an adventure I was never going to convert for my use wasn't worth it. This one interests me and I'm still mulling it over...and I'm sure I'm not alone in that (this thread indicates I'm clearly not).

The other thing to keep in mind is that early sales are often the most important, and existing fans are much more likely to pre-order products than new fans looking for a new product. This book does have the advantage of being a sort-of follow up to Curse of Strahd...but that was itself a book that relied heavily on the existing fanbase, which seems to have overall loved the book, to endorse and promote it.

From a business standpoint, you want to minimize alienating *any* audience, especially with what are essentially low-volume sales items like RPG products (all print media is low sales market, but about the only data I can reliably cite for TTRPGs is that Strahd sold 6000 copies in its first week of sales which is not a lot considering that includes preorders if I read this correctly). In this case, the *individual* decisions made don't necessarily run afoul of this rule, but overall its a bit confusing what the idea was. Its also about how they sell everything. The first indications we got about the changes were with incomplete information which put older fans on guard (because we are all human, our immediate reaction to change is to be suspicious until we have more information). The first leaks received were about the *big changes* that were coming, but we didn't get any of the reasoning for why, or how they fit in. The fact we immediately started asking 'so are they or aren't they keeping any of the existing canon for this new product?' is a sign of a bad PR roll-out. That's information fans should be getting upfront early in the PR program, not much further into the process.

And, again, my question is 'why does the answer to that question change between domains?' Who, exactly, is that aimed at? The references to Dominic d'Honaire aren't for *new* players, there's not enough information there for new players to...know anything about him as far as I can tell. So its clearly meant for existing fans...but then why is Nova Vaasa completely different and lacking any connection to its previous version? Its unclear to me if Dementlieu is just changed, or if the new version actually follows up the older version (was Dominic ever the darklord in this version or not, basically), while Darkon seems to be *clearly and directly* following up on either the Grand Conjunction and/or the Death trilogy events. I don't understand this specific piecemeal approach...it doesn't seem to know who, exactly, its trying to appeal to.

[Five]

"I had selected his features as beautiful. Beautiful!—Great God! His yellow skin scarcely covered the work of muscles and arteries beneath; his hair was of a lustrous black, and flowing; his teeth of a pearly whiteness; but these luxuriances only formed a more horrid contrast with his watery eyes, that seemed almost of the same colour as the dun white sockets in which they were set, his shrivelled complexion and straight black lips.

The different accidents of life are not so changeable as the feelings of human nature. I had worked hard for nearly two years, for the sole purpose of infusing life into an inanimate body. For this I had deprived myself of rest and health. I had desired it with an ardour that far exceeded moderation; but now that I had finished, the beauty of the dream vanished, and breathless horror and disgust filled my heart."

My gut quoting Frankenstein; or, The Modern Prometheus as I read more and more of these VRGtR bleeds...

[Dion of the Fraternity]

A setting reboot (with gender swapping) isn't new in RPGs; the most significant change in recent years happened to Legend of the Five Rings, when 20 years of lore was reset by Fantasy Flight Games back to when the game started in the mid-90s.

Here's one character from the old lore (name's Doji Hoturi):

Doji_Hoturi_5.jpg (215.7 KiB) Viewed 1403 times

And here's the same person in the rebooted lore, who now goes by the name Doji Hotaru:

Doji_Hotaru.jpg (196.85 KiB) Viewed 1403 times

The new L5R lore was eventually positively received by both RPG and CG players despite some other changes to the lore (e.g., the Emperor having two sons instead of one, a new Clan family never mentioned in the old lore, a different take on a coup, etc.). I'm assuming that once the Ravenloft book is released, all this anxiety about "rebooting" will subside, just as it did for L5R.

[Jonathan Winters]

To do this quickly, again, I think we shoud all wait and see.

About diversity, I'm not inclined to think that these decisions were made arbitrarily. Are the roads to hell paved with good intentions? We'll see. Also, if anybody wants to get very cynical, let's remember that Wiards wants to make money, so no one is antagonizing anybody on purpose here. As far as some stuff being done in a clumsy manner? Possibly, we shall see.

But more diversity can't be bad IMHO.

I think what we are seeing are these RL lands, a lot of them built from archetypal real world histories / cultures (?), mostly from western cultures, that are now being (re)created through our contemporay diversity lens. (Not sure this is the best wording.) So, yeah, some of this stuff will clash with previous editions, I guess. So, possibly, someone at Wizards decided to go full blown ''totally fantasy lands without any real references to real life'' (hence what seems to be a defuhrerization of Drakov, hence POCs without real ''cultural backgrounds'', etc.) Somehow, MAYBE, and that's possibly what is bringing about a lot of questions, this iteration of RL will be ''diverse'' but in some kind of vaccuum, without any real ''meaning'', as if anybody is ''diverse'' but without (in world) cultures? This could get bland...

Wizards might be shying away from any source of conflict with regards to politics and representation. Will it work? Maybe. Will it be ''our'' RL? Whatever that means, I am not so sure. BUt it is their game.

So it will be up to individual players to set up their own limits as to how far they want to go with real issues possibly.

Ok, I am rambling...

BTW, this place is great. Anywhere else on the internet would be a bloodbath right now.

[Mephisto of the FoS]

BTW, this place is great. Anywhere else on the internet would be a bloodbath right now.

A toast to the moderators...

Hip, hip...Hooray!!!

[Mephisto of the FoS]

Sorry... wrong file...

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

BTW, this place is great. Anywhere else on the internet would be a bloodbath right now.

Thank you, and we'll accept both of Mephisto's toasts, but we have to face the fact that some of the reason that it's not fully erupting here are: a) there simply aren't many of us left here.... and b) we've got the "wait and see" contingent, and the "I hate this" contingent, but we don't have much of the "this is good, actually" contingent (Which does exist, mind you, I've seen it elsewhere). So what arguments we've had have been less extreme than they could have been. (though even then, more extreme than would be to my liking at times.)

If we can keep what debate comes on a simmer, and keep it to debating the work and not directed attacks at posters or authors, I'll be happy.

[SkiBird]

^^ Post-wise, I have not been very active on this topic. But I have been following the discussion near-daily.

I'm pretty solidly in the wait-and-see camp, and I look forward to seeing the changes for myself. (Personally, whether they are for good or ill is a discussion for later)

I imagine after a solid read through, I'll take what works, and tweak what doesn't. It doesn't bother me overmuch if 'my' version of RL ends up being a blend of old & new.

Really looking forward to a thorough 'Here is what has changed' comparison thread that has been suggested. I'm a fan, but it is a near certainty that I'll miss some of the nuance and finer points of noticing what has changed.

Also looking forward to the FoS members' plan of reunifying the Core.

So while I may not be a contributor, rest assured, I am lurking like a BOSS.

Keep up the good work, all.

[Jonathan Winters]

Hi Gonzoron,

The rules here are very clear as far as decorum goes. And it is great.

I was ''talking'' with James Lowder on FB earlier this week and what some people need to remember is that, because a / this book might not be for you, does not mean it is a bad book.

And I'm not saying this cos I think it'll be great or anything. I have no horses in this race. I hope there will be some great stuff though.

Later,

Patrick