Magic, or the absence of..

[Vlad]

Hi,

I've been playing RL for years now, my PCs are around 9th/10th level (3.5 ed).
All these years I've been quite harsh on them with respect to magic. They don't get many magic items (except for some magic weapons, or potion) and they also don't find many spellbooks/scrolls to get more arcane spells. I'm following most of the modules (mainly mid '90s, where the amount is quite low).
However, with their current level, I'm leading them more into the higher level modules, like from the early 90's, like Roots of Evil and From the Shadows. With these modules, however, I get the idea that they just need an awesome amount of magic to overcome all obstacles. I'm affraid that they simple will not get through them with their current amount magic. Even 'younger' modules, like Bleak house, I get the feeling they will not get through. Am I alone in this? I don't want to hand out many items, but fear that I've been a bit too frugal.. Anyone with the same experience here? How do you handle this?

Best,
Martijn

[Mephisto of the FoS]

My view is also towards low magic, since you mentioned Roots of Evil I would certainly cut down the magic in Azalin's lair and would not use some extremely powerful monsters as the aboleths. I believe Azalin's lair is too high magic for the settings atmosphere, the whole adventure seems more hack n' slash than roleplaying, but in general I like it's concept.

[Rock of the Fraternity]

One of the benefits of Ravenloft: if you don't want to hand out magic gear, you can hand out scientific gear. An explosion from dynamite is no less damaging than that from a fireball. Treat your party to a shopping spree in Lamordia.

[Mephisto of the FoS]

However, with their current level, I'm leading them more into the higher level modules, like from the early 90's, like Roots of Evil and From the Shadows. With these modules, however, I get the idea that they just need an awesome amount of magic to overcome all obstacles. I'm affraid that they simple will not get through them with their current amount magic.

Also you could add some extra elements how to beat up a powerful monster as the Guardian Demon or the Zombie/Skeleton Golems.

I believe it would be good to read I, Strahd: The Memoirs of a Vampire, King of the Dead, Lord of Necropolis and I, Strahd: The War Against Azalin to better flesh out the two undead adversaries as well as making the visit to Sergei's wedding more exciting for your players. One of them could for instance be transpossessed to the body of a Dilisnya assassin or the PC's could try to both fight against both the Dilisnya's and vampire Strahd trying to save innocent lives. Imagine for instance if Sturm did not attend the wedding (because of an "interest") but his wife did attend only to be saved by the PC's and then in later adventure finding out that Lyssa Von Zarovich would have never been born if they had not saved her gnandmother, thus vampire illithids would have not be created...

Also about the wedding imagine one of the PCs be an eye witness of Strahd drinking blood and transforming into "the first vampyr" or maybe bumping on Azalin in Alek Gwilym's corpse.

For those of you who may want to play a lower level Sergei's Wedding Massacre or without playing From the Shadows I have created a mistway to there in QtR #27 article Borcan Epic.

[tomokaicho]

One of the benefits of Ravenloft: if you don't want to hand out magic gear, you can hand out scientific gear. An explosion from dynamite is no less damaging than that from a fireball. Treat your party to a shopping spree in Lamordia.

Legacy of the Blood has the Create Device feat, which conveniently (and quite elegantly) uses science to create effects similar to magic. So you have have Create Device (brew potion) to produce scientific potions of remove disease or haste, which can be fluffed as antibiotics and amphetamines respectively. Its elegant because the basic system of magical items is retained, obviating the need for an entirely new (and probably unbalancing) system.

I would probably allow castings of dispel magic to act as dispel science if the caster knows that they are dealing with science. Otherwise, having science as (Ex) has some strange implications that is probably better sidestepped altogether.

[Mephisto of the FoS]

Legacy of the Blood has the Create Device feat, which conveniently (and quite elegantly) uses science to create effects similar to magic. So you have have Create Device (brew potion) to produce scientific potions

Yes but what if any science feat is not applicable to his campaigns characters, either because of the PC's domain of origin Cultural Level or because of character class, what do you do?

Arnold "Muscle" Weis: That mummy is really hard to beat. We desperately need some firepowah!

Alfonso De LaFaurentiis: Darn I should have paid more attention to chemistry class in boarding school.

Cinnan the Barbarian: Don't worry after our visit in Brautslava Institute‎ I got to pick up a thing or two about explosive fireballs.

Cinnan the Barbarian's Player: Good thing I kept those feat slots empty, I knew they would come in handy.

[tomokaicho]

Yes but what if any science feat is not applicable to his campaigns characters, either because of the PC's domain of origin Cultural Level or because of character class, what do you do?

The feat has lenient prerequisites.



Also, I wouldn't stop any character from taking a feat due to cultural level. There are points of light or advanced pockets of civilization everywhere, even the backwards places.

[SkiBird]

One of the benefits of Ravenloft: if you don't want to hand out magic gear, you can hand out scientific gear. ...

That's a really neat idea ... consider it yoinked for my campaign.

[Rock of the Fraternity]

Legacy of the Blood has the Create Device feat, which conveniently (and quite elegantly) uses science to create effects similar to magic. So you have have Create Device (brew potion) to produce scientific potions

Yes but what if any science feat is not applicable to his campaigns characters, either because of the PC's domain of origin Cultural Level or because of character class, what do you do?

Arnold "Muscle" Weis: That mummy is really hard to beat. We desperately need some firepowah!

Alfonso De LaFaurentiis: Darn I should have paid more attention to chemistry class in boarding school.

Cinnan the Barbarian: Don't worry after our visit in Brautslava Institute‎ I got to pick up a thing or two about explosive fireballs.

Cinnan the Barbarian's Player: Good thing I kept those feat slots empty, I knew they would come in handy.

Adventuring is usually all about travel, and exposure to different cultures.
Conan the Barbarian, bless his Cimmerian heart, picked up knowledge and developed new skills all the time - and he's the poster boy for stubborn barbarianism.
Some educated people enjoy teaching the less fortunate, or can be paid to, or will make it an experiment to teach people from "lesser" societies - probably because they plan to prove that inferior beings can't learn, but that's a different subject.
All your adventurers need to do is keep their eyes and ears open, maintain a helpful attitude, and save up some of their pennies.

[The Lesser Evil]

Hi,

I've been playing RL for years now, my PCs are around 9th/10th level (3.5 ed).
All these years I've been quite harsh on them with respect to magic. They don't get many magic items (except for some magic weapons, or potion) and they also don't find many spellbooks/scrolls to get more arcane spells. I'm following most of the modules (mainly mid '90s, where the amount is quite low).
However, with their current level, I'm leading them more into the higher level modules, like from the early 90's, like Roots of Evil and From the Shadows. With these modules, however, I get the idea that they just need an awesome amount of magic to overcome all obstacles. I'm affraid that they simple will not get through them with their current amount magic. Even 'younger' modules, like Bleak house, I get the feeling they will not get through. Am I alone in this? I don't want to hand out many items, but fear that I've been a bit too frugal.. Anyone with the same experience here? How do you handle this?

Best,
Martijn

By "magic" and "magic items", are you using this as the sometimes shorthand for either a) special resources and/or b) fantastical things?

If so, then aside from introducing substitute/alternate forms of magic (including super-science and fantastical materials), there might be a few options
a) introducing special weaknesses that can be exploited by proper investigation and giving them the time/clues to figure things out or deduce- for example giving the PCs some protection or feigned protection against Azalin by learning his real name
b) toning down the dangers/opposition to match the low magic level (and general vibe) of the game. (e.g. making the various mook cerebral vampires vampire spawns, well preserved ghouls, or normal humans in Bleak House, cutting down the ridiculous amount of wraiths and spectres in the conjuration room in Castle Avernus, making banshee wails and other insta-deaths into dying status instead, etc.)
c) increasing the number/effectiveness of recruitable NPC allies, for example the polymorphed adventurers in Avernus, and possibly allowing the players to play them as hirelings/replacement characters.
d) allowing more evasive/peaceful bypasses than is typical for 3.5 (and some 2e) campaigns (and giving them the corresponding XP for "defeating" them.) and/or truncating some of the longer locations.

[Mephisto of the FoS]

there might be a few options
a) introducing special weaknesses that can be exploited by proper investigation and giving them the time/clues to figure things out or deduce- for example giving the PCs some protection or feigned protection against Azalin by learning his real name
b) toning down the dangers/opposition to match the low magic level (and general vibe) of the game. (e.g. making the various mook cerebral vampires vampire spawns, well preserved ghouls, or normal humans in Bleak House, cutting down the ridiculous amount of wraiths and spectres in the conjuration room in Castle Avernus, making banshee wails and other insta-deaths into dying status instead, etc.)
c) increasing the number/effectiveness of recruitable NPC allies, for example the polymorphed adventurers in Avernus, and possibly allowing the players to play them as hirelings/replacement characters.
d) allowing more evasive/peaceful bypasses than is typical for 3.5 (and some 2e) campaigns (and giving them the corresponding XP for "defeating" them.) and/or truncating some of the longer locations.

Well said Lesser Evil

[Vlad]

Thanks for all the good advice! Somehow, though, the toning down of the difficulty seems a bit like cheating to me.. It should be doable with the lowmagic. I know, most modules weren't written with that in mind, esp. the early ones. But still, I don't want to play Strahd as uncapable of defending himself. Of course, you can use him in a more NPC -like way, not at an adversary (directly, that is). But once they decide on going against him, they're doomed, I think. The holds true for most darklords, like the hags, Tristen, Azalin, etc.

Anyone run into these kind of difficulties?