Vampire sunlight weakness reset?

[A G Thing]

A vampires time in sunlight and how it recovers has become a question on my mind as of late.

How does it work?

Does its duration reset if it is placed into darkness for even a moment during the duration such that lets say a vampire that can stay a minute in sunlight but not even for a full round it is suddenly shaded from sun after 30 seconds of exposure. Would it then after take another full minute to destroy it or not?

Does that same minute resistant vampire then if able to escape the sunlight after 30 seconds within it instantly recover to 1 minute total or does it take it an equal amount of time to when it was in the sunlight so 30 seconds in darkness to recover an equal duration?

Does that resistant vampire then as such have the ability to just be in sunlight indefinitely if it just every 9 rounds then steps for 1 round out of direct sunlight then walk back into it?

Also age categories of vampires in VRGtV lists them as having increasing resistance to sunlight but is not complete.
Fledgling - None
Mature - 1 Minute
Old - ? (30 Minutes)
Ancient - 1 Hour
Eminent - ? (3 Hours)
Patriarch - Indefinite

Any ideas on how it progresses? Also since 3.5 got rid of very old I am not using it but there are just 100 years between each category until the patriarch is reached at 1000+ so it goes from none to 1 minute in 100 years, then 1 hour 300 years later in 3.5 so there seems to be no set scaling. My best guesses are listed next to these entries in parentheses but do you agree or is there a source out there for such?

[Wolfglide of the Fraternity]

Van Richten's Arsenal gives new values for sunlight resistance on page 123, all in terms of rounds:
Mature - 3 rounds
Old - 5 rounds
Ancient - 10 rounds (1 minute)
Eminent - 20 rounds (2 minutes)
Patriarch - (Immune, but still limited to partial actions while exposed)
Table 6-2 (from which I draw these) is considered a "typical" progression, but it doesn't necessarily apply to all vampires, and it could vary from strain to strain.

The question of recovery time is not explicitly answered. As written, the base D&D vampire is destroyed if it is still exposed to sunlight on the following round, so I would think the resistance indicated by VRA just extends this time, leaving the "recovery" tacitly instantaneous---as long as it is not in sunlight when its resistance runs out, it is saved, and the clock starts over with the next exposure.

That being said, a recovery time makes thematic sense, and would be a logical supplemental rule to add.

It is worth noting that the RLPHB says "They cannot use their magical powers once exposed to the sun." This is a bit ambiguous; either the vampire cannot use its magic while exposed, or it cannot use its magic following exposure (presumably until it rests in its coffin, like the nosferatu in Denizens of Dread, which cannot be destroyed by sunlight). If the latter is true, then instantaneous recovery of sunlight resistance is still not total recovery---in fact, the vampire is severely hamstrung without its magic for quite a while.

Interesting side-note: the "Bloodlines" article in Dragon Magazine 348 introduces the terror vampire, which has an ability called vampiric repression that acts like a brief, innate mimic mortal effect (for up to twice its Charisma modifier in rounds each day). Thus, it can survive daylight, but only for a limited amount of time per day, rather than per exposure.

Technically, none of the 3e/3.5e Ravenloft sources I am looking at actually say the sunlight resistance times are per exposure, and could well be a total per day. Still, there should probably remain that minimum of one round between exposure and destruction once these rounds of resistance are used up, otherwise the base vampire would logically explode with the barest hint of sunlight on its second exposure of the day, which is not how the rules read. That would be the main counterargument against making the resistance times anything other than per exposure.

[A G Thing]

Thank you for the reply.

Thank you for pointing me to VRArsenal since I missed that. Having the times is good since I try to stick to the books or at least adapt from them closely for house rules or changes but this saves me the trouble for the time limits.

I ran them for so long just resetting the duration as well but I was never certain if that was how it was said to be.
Often I questioned if maybe it would have been more fitting if they just had to spend a similar time period out of the light to recover.
Mostly because the Sun seems to be the strongest anathema to their Vampiric natures.
Seems odd sometimes to me that they can sort of flaunt stepping in and out but the books say they fight to the death to avoid even entering sunlight if they can.
Perhaps the ability loss is reasonable enough if it extends beyond that until they rest but I guess it depends how weakened you see them being from such exposure.

Blending the two so that the vampire must wait an equal period to recover but also could not use its abilities until this recovery period is passed seems like a decent blend of the two.

[Mephisto of the FoS]

Let me remind you that one of Jander Sunstar's hands is still scarred by holding the Holy Symbol of Ravenkind. Although it seems appropriate since the artifact is rumoured to have a piece of the sun inside it still he was an Ancient vampire at the time I think (if not eminent since then) and he hasn't recovered for centuries. I believe that to recover a vampire should be able to rest in its coffin and not heal its sunburns rapidly. I would divide it's hit points with the time needed to be destroyed and then have this damage noted somewhere, the vampire then needs to rest to recover from these burns healing these "damage" as a mortal would with rest. Vampires burned to near extinction should have obvious burns on their skin making them difficult to merge with the populace without drawing attention, that way sunlight becomes not only a means of destruction but also of hindrance to a vampire since it makes it harder for it to hunt for blood.

[alhoon]

To be honest, I would go with "timers". I.e. if the Vampire jumped in the dark for 2 rounds after being in the sun for 9 rounds, then it would have 3 more rounds in the sun before going pooof.

Also, again this is personal issue, I don't like the sun resistance for vampires, at least not as drastic. Strahd gets some resistance and all because he's darklord.

[Mephisto of the FoS]

To be honest, I would go with "timers". I.e. if the Vampire jumped in the dark for 2 rounds after being in the sun for 9 rounds, then it would have 3 more rounds in the sun before going pooof.

As I read the discussion I couldn't help but imagine having a fight against a vampire with the vampire being cornered into a beam of sunlight, the vampire panics and the countdown to its destruction starts. Then it manages to protect itself from the sun for a few rounds before being "sunlighted" again and the countdown starts again. Well having a vampire jumping back and forth from sunlight to shadow (to refresh itself) seems a bit ridiculous in my opinion. 2e rules from VRGtV have resolved that as the vampire exposed to sunlight also takes damage from exposure to sunlight.

Because having a vampire burning, then cooling off completely and burning again from the start sounds a bit "unrealistic"

VRGtV states the following...

At the end of every complete melee round that a vampire Is partially exposed to sunlight, it suffers 3d6 points of damage. The exposed fiesh will often burst into flame, emitting a foul smell.
A vampire exposed to sunlight must make a saving throw vs. petrification (2e rules), with a -2 penalty to the die roll, If it fails this save, it can do nothing but seek shelter from the sun. If it saves, however, it can act freely during its period of immunty, and can suppress any obvious signs of its discomfort. As soon as its period of immunty ends, however, it must instantly seek shelter from the sun. If a Patriarch or other sunlight-immune vampire is exposed to direct or reflected sunlight, it must save vs spells, with a +2 bonus to the die roll. A successful save means that it totally suppresses its innate distaste for sunlight. A failed save, on the other hand, indicates that the creature shows some signs of discomfort, such as painful squinting, etc
The duration of stigmata is up to the DM.

If the vampire stays exposed more than the maximum number it can withstand sunlight even if the damage points from sunlight wouldn't destroy it.

Stigmata is the burns a vampire suffers while exposed to sunlight. My opinion about stigmata from sunlight is that the lost hit points from sunburn are gained as a mortal gains hit points by regular rest and are not regenerated.

Also, again this is personal issue, I don't like the sun resistance for vampires, at least not as drastic. Strahd gets some resistance and all because he's darklord.

Strahd was a Very Old and now an Ancient vampire that is also the reason why he can withstand sunlight for some rounds.

The 2e Red Box has them as

Fledgling 0-99 0 rnds of sunlight withstood
Mature 100-199 1 rnd of sunlight withstood
Old 200-299 5 rnds of sunlight withstood
Very Old 300-399 10 rnds of sunlight withstood
Ancient 400-499 3 turns of sunlight withstood
Eminent 500-999 1 hour of sunlight withstood
Patriarch 1000+ immunity to sunlight

Sun resistance makes older vampires more difficult to kill which makes them also harder for their minions to plot against them. Dr. Dominiani managed to trap Duke Gundar in a beam of sunlight before the adventurers staked him, believing he was dead they didn't finish the job.

I like the sun resistance cause it can be dramatic...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ChhFWdFStI
By the way vampires wearing sunblock is also a bit ridiculous too

Speaking of resistances Jander Sunsrtar as an eminent vampire should be resistant to running water but Children of the Night Vampires has an image of him suffering under running (sewage) water...

[A G Thing]

To Mephisto
Note that I wrote the post then delayed in posting so now am editing it for more to respond to you.
Thank you for the reminder of that tidbit of fluff about Jander and how scars endure.
Also I did note that it does 3d6 damage in 2e but no mention is made in 3e though I do think that is a better number than fractional damage for sunlight exposure.
I do already run that lingering scars remain from damage done by holy or sufficient radiant sources but since sunlight does not deal damage in similar fashion in 3.5 I just do so if a spell that has damaging light does such. Perhaps I would consider adding in the 3d6 again but that raises some questions in balance and other issues.
As I run these scars/stigmata do not heal over time short of some other spell or effect removing them and are a hindrance that with a proper ritual of sufficient power and effort could be removed but not easily or quickly done. So if I stick to that ruling I then have every vampire in sunlight suffering long term burn scars requiring special means if any are available to heal from. Not impossible or even bad just a consideration especially if I plan for them to be in social situations where these burns may hamper or prevent them from doing so. It again makes for an interesting issue for the vampire so scared but it could throw off a long planned game meeting. Still not exactly against it as I would just have to plan for such things.
I am of two minds to altering sunlight to damage vampires and especially in a fractional sense.
On one hand having the sun burn a vampire is good sometimes and for some types and it is a good further reward to players able to do so to their vampire opponent as it makes it really stick how potent it can be in a dramatic and thematic way that emphasizes light purifying evil that hides in darkness.
But on the opposite side of it they already are weakened by it and it hampers them enough in most cases that adding damage to the equation as well as permanent scaring for such a hard point to bring them back from. This also lowers their threat to an extent as they are meant to be potent creatures of darkness in a land where darkness holds more sway more often than the sun does.
Having the sun do that as well may sound good but I still want them to have some ability to survive and not be crippled forever such so at most I could maybe see them as suffering a set amount of temporary HP damage like 3d6 such as non-lethal that while they are not normally subject to would weaken them, but I would have it fade just as rapidly as the rounds being reversed in my previous example. Perhaps also if it did inflict a discoloration or sort of scaring that would be reversed by resting for days equal to rounds exposed. This makes scars from sunlight still potent but not as permanent as some such from holy damage or direct radiant damage spells.
Fractional damage in such larger chunks as hit die and level of vampires increase but the number of rounds is also lengthened creates custom math that would necessitate developing the amount lost per round.
Thinking on it I am tempted to add back 3d6 damage but my own house rules on scars/stigmata would then become inconsistent so it is a balance.

To Alhoon
I am finding myself leaning toward the timer and recovery aspects.
But I also think personally having some sun resistance for all vampires sans fledglings is warranted a bit as I think it gives those important NPC vampires not quite at Strahd's level or such a chance to elevate themselves to a higher recurring threat later if they can get away.
Not every vampire needs to be that recurring threat but if one perhaps is potent enough to become such it does not strain the PC's to meta that if a vampire survives then he must have DM given sunlight resistance as an excuse and it lets you get away with turning a past encounter where that vampire got away to something personal to them.

[Mephisto of the FoS]

I do already run that lingering scars remain from damage done by holy or sufficient radiant sources but since sunlight does not deal damage in similar fashion in 3.5 I just do so if a spell that has damaging light does such. Perhaps I would consider adding in the 3d6 again but that raises some questions in balance and other issues.

In 2e Monstrous Compedium there was no mention of damage by exposure to sunlight, VRGtVampires introduced that, I believe it is something easily adapted to 3.5e it has already been adapted in 5e.

From 5e
Sunlight Hypersensitivity. The vampire takes 20 radiant damage when it starts its turn in sunlight. While in sunlight, it has disadvantage on attack rolls and ability checks.

As I run these scars/stigmata do not heal over time short of some other spell or effect removing them and are a hindrance that with a proper ritual of sufficient power and effort could be removed but not easily or quickly done. So if I stick to that ruling I then have every vampire in sunlight suffering long term burn scars requiring special means if any are available to heal from. Not impossible or even bad just a consideration especially if I plan for them to be in social situations where these burns may hamper or prevent them from doing so. It again makes for an interesting issue for the vampire so scared but it could throw off a long planned game meeting. Still not exactly against it as I would just have to plan for such things.

This is also one of the reason why vampires avoid sunlight, as I mentioned before it is not just an innate aversion towards it as monsters of darkness but also because they are hindranced of having normal interactions if they are badly burned. If sunlight is made more "casual" by having the scars easily fade away, there is no actual threat of a vampire going out for a stroll in the open since the scars will fade away. Sunlight should be threatening to vampires and avoid it at all costs, being scarred is an extra reason why to avoid it.
Also even if the PCs have failed to destroy a vampire, it may have been badly burned making it harder for it to hunt, thus this becomes a small win even if the vampire is not destroyed as well as giving them a better chance to prepare for the next hunt, as it heals itself. Also the vampire could be fearful or vengeful towards the PC's that almost destroyed it (and scarred it) as it is not something to be taken lightly, 5the result could be a recurring vampire villain. It can also be a win win situation between the players and the DM, as the vampire may be forced to leave its hunting grounds and go someplace else, thus the PCs save the day but can bump upon the vampire later in their adventures in some other place, making it usable for the DM in future adventures.

For social interactions there are always other ways for vampires to keep up with and disguise as mortals, maybe it wears clothing or uses magic to hide the stigmata/scars from burning. As stated in VRGtVampires not all vampires are the same, so one could be immune to sunlight even if it is not a Patriarch. Then there is the nosferatu vampire strain that can walk out in sunlight normally but they can't use their powers https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKZUQyh_aaU, and then there is always the spell Mimic Mortal where a vampire sacrifices some of its powers as to become immune to some of its weaknesses (even sunlight) gaining a semblance of life for the spell's duration.

But on the opposite side of it they already are weakened by it and it hampers them enough in most cases that adding damage to the equation as well as permanent scaring for such a hard point to bring them back from.

In 2e Older Vampires retain their powers even when exposed to sunlight Fledgling (and Vampire Spawn in 3e) don't. Also sunlight does not necessarily scar a vampire permanently, I believe they are badly burned until healed by other means other than vampiric regeneration.

From VRGtVampires
As soon as a normal Fledgling vampire is totally exposed to sunlight, it is instantly incapable of using any of its magical abiliies. All it can concentrate upon is trying to get into shelter. If at the end of one minute the creature has not escaped the rays of the sun, it is instantly and permanently anhilated.
As a vampire ages, however, it becomes able to sustain brief periods of time in the sun. Older vampires seem to be able to resist the lethal effects of exposure to sunlight for varying periods of time. A Mature vampire might withstand one minute of exposure, for example, white an Ancient might withstand one hour in the sun without being destroyed. During this "period of immunity," the creature is able to use all of its powers normally. The instant this period of immunity expires, however, the creature is stripped of its magical powers, and one minute later is annihilated.

In 3e a (Fledgling) vampire can do only a move action or attack action for 1 round after that it is destroyed, that does not necessarily apply to older vampires, or if it does it doesn't apply to every vampire.

Having the sun do that as well may sounds good but I still want them to have some ability to survive and not be crippled forever such so at most I could maybe see them as suffering a set amount of temporary HP damage like 3d6 such as non-lethal that while they are not normally subject to would weaken them, but I would have it fade just as rapidly as the rounds being reversed in my previous example.

I never said they should be permanently crippled, Jander was crippled because he touched a piece of the sun itself. But I still believe healing from the lethal effects of the sun (radiant damage) should take long.

Perhaps also if it did inflict a discoloration or sort of scaring that would be reversed by resting for days equal to rounds exposed. This makes scars from sunlight still potent but not as permanent as some such from holy damage or direct radiant damage spells.

Fractional damage in such larger chunks as hit die and level of vampires increase but the number of rounds is also lengthened creates custom math that would necessitate developing the amount lost per round.
Thinking on it I am tempted to add back 3d6 damage but my own house rules on scars/stigmata would then become inconsistent so it is a balance.

Resting for days equal for rounds exposed sounds good but that makes a Mature vampire, that can withstand only 1 round, heal faster than an Eminent who can withstand 3 turns. So I still believe it should be based on "radiant" damage (like the 3d6 points) that cannot be regenerated but healed in a "mortal" way maybe adding some plus HP recovered based on HD or regeneration rate to balance the recovery between a Mature and an Eminent.

For example in 2e a Mature regenerates 3 hp/round and an Eminent 4/round

In 3e Natural Healing a mortal character can heal wounds with a full night’s rest (8 hours of sleep or more), you recover 1 hit point per character level.
Any significant interruption during your rest prevents you from healing that night, maybe giving PCs another chance to postpone the vampires attacks (and become super annoying to the vampire)

Hey haven't you heard about Quiet Hours?

If you undergo complete bed rest for an entire day and night, you recover twice your character level in hit points (some vampires may be able to do that too, others may have to overfeed before doing this, while others are unable to recover extra HP this way).

A Mature vampire has fast healing of 5 while an Eminent of 8 so an Eminent may heal 3 more hp than a mature each day than a Mature as well as probably having more HD (so it probably heals faster based on that too).

Also some vampires could be able to heal radiant damage by drinking blood (Con drain) or energy drain, gaining 5 hp with such successful attacks. Vampires such as these vampires may be deadlier when they are nearly destroyed by sunlight, the PC's trying to destroy it make it go into a rampage of killing villagers to heal itself instead.

The more options we have the better because we can create unique villains to surprise players, especially those who know game mechanics and stats by heart.

Also 3e Ravenloft Campaign Setting states
Vampires are also unusual in that they require sleep. In most cases, this is not the restful repose of a living creature, but more closely resembles a
coma. As the sun rises, the vampire falls into unconsciousness and cannot be awakened until the sun sets. Noises, lights, and even attacks do not stir the creature. Obviously, this is the preferred state in which to encounter one of these monsters. Once the sun does set, however, the vampire instantly springs to full alertness. A vampire that awakens in the company of the unprepared may be able to attack from surprise at the DM's discretion.
Because of this helplessness during daylight hours, a vampire takes great care in choosing a resting place and makes certain that it is defended to the fullest extent it can manage.

That would make most vampires unable to walk let alone fight before sunset, so we are already talking about unique individuals who can stay awake during the day.

[A G Thing]

Read you further post Mephisto

Agree that healing of scars likely would better fit with healing for days by damage rather than rounds but I will have to workshop how much damage equals a scar at that point instead of just applying it per round.

Also I was not saying that you said the sun would permanently cripple a vampire normally but that with how I handle other scars/stigmata using my house rules it would be an issue as I make it hard to heal such.

Perhaps since exposure damage is so over all and spread out like I said healing those scars over days would suffice. It does mean that significant strikes with radiant damage or holy damage that are more focused inflict more lasting scars than such.

But if I go by my more long lasting scarring then yes like you said and I hinted at the effects of a scarred vampire seeking revenge as well as affecting them socially would be great motives for vengeance.

Thank you for all the reference and I think everyone has helped quite a bit.

[Mephisto of the FoS]

Agree that healing of scars likely would better fit with healing for days by damage rather than rounds but I will have to workshop how much damage equals a scar at that point instead of just applying it per round.

...
Perhaps since exposure damage is so over all and spread out like I said healing those scars over days would suffice. It does mean that significant strikes with radiant damage or holy damage that are more focused inflict more lasting scars than such.

I don't know your house rules but I made a calculation based on canon rules.


If you undergo complete bed rest for an entire day and night, you recover twice your character level in hit points

Age Category___Fledgling_______Mature________Old_________Very Old________Ancient_______Eminent_______Patriarch
Hit Dice__________8+3__________9 + 3________10 + 2_________11 + 1___________12____________13____________14

There is one age category (Very Old) missing in 3e, I would propably change age categories as such
Fledgling________0 - 99
Mature________100 -199
Old__________200 - 299
Very Old______300 - 499_______Strahd is still considered Very Old although refered to as Ancient but I wouldn;'t change his stats as he is "special".
Ancient_______500 - 699_______Duke Nharov Gundar was Ancient in 2e but now he may have advanced to Eminent.
Eminent______700 - 999_______Jander Sunstar is around 700 years old by 750 BC so there are no changes in his stats either.
Patriarch_______1000+

A Mature vampire has fast healing of 5 while an Eminent of 8 so an Eminent may heal 3 more hp than a mature each day than a Mature as well as probably having more HD (so it probably heals faster based on that too). In 2e VRGtVampires a vampires Hit Dice are increased by age category.

In 3e the average vampire gains one level each time it goes up an age category similar to 2e so a Mature vampire having 9 HD would heal 2 x 9HD + 5 hp = 23 hp per day while an Eminent would heal 2 x 13 + 8 hp = 34 hp per day.

So still a Mature vampire takes 3d6 radiant damage before escaping (if it took another round it would have been destroyed) which makes a max 18 radiant damage which it can still heal in one day of rest. While an Eminent vampire that takes 3 turns of sunlight 30x3d6 would have an average of 315 damage. An Eminent vampires damage obviously still takes longer to heal as well as it may have been destroyed by radiant damage before the 3 turns pass.

So maybe the radiant damage could change depending on age category too.

The following radiant damage is cured only by resting in a coffin.

Age Category________Fledgling_____ Mature________Old_________Very Old________Ancient_______Eminent_______Patriarch

Rounds of Sunlight____0 rounds_______1 round_______5 rounds________10 rounds________3 turns_________6 turns______immunity to sunlight

Damage from____________-___________4d12___________2d6____________3d2_____________1d2_________1 or none*__________none
Sunlight

Maximum damage________-____________48____________60______________60_____________60______________60_____________none

Average damage/rnd______-____________26_____________7_____________4,5____________1,5_____________0,5 (?)___________none

*I would make an Eminent vampire semi resistant to radiant damage needing to make a Fortitude save each round.
The vampire makes the save using its Charisma modifier instead of its nonexistent Constitution score to avoid being damaged by sunlight DC 20.

This makes sense also considering Duke Gundars assassination, as sunlight had rendered him unable to react as he had paniced but it seemed to not affect him the adventurers decided to stake him instead leaving his skeleton to the ground of the grand hall of Castle Hunadora, probably the portal opened for them and they stepped through or were sucked in before they managed to finnish the job. Dr. Dominiani feeling he was liberated by its former masters control assumed he was destroyed and left the skeleton there.

Looking at the calculations above I made a table of a vampire's healing rate from radiant damage by sleeping in its coffin depending on age category. Some vampires can possibly heal themselves faster by drinking blood or energy drain attacks gaining 5 hp per successful attack.

Age Category________Fledgling______ Mature_______Old________Very Old_______Ancient______Eminent_____Patriarch

Healing/day of rest______-_______________1___________2_____________3______________4_____________5___________none
for radiant damage

Days needed to rest_____-_____________48 days______30 days________20 days________15 days________12 days________none
from maximum dmg

Days needed to rest_____-_____________26 days_____18 days________15 days_________11 days_________6 days________none
from Average damage

Days needed to rest_____-______________4 days______1 day__________none___________none___________none_________none
from minimum exposure

I believe this works well as younger age categories need more days to rest from the same amount of radiant damage taken making age difference having a difference. I also believe it makes sense if we think that a mature vampire can be destroyed after 1 round of exposure. As it takes massive damage and scars/stigmata from sunlight it needs many days to recover from near extinction. It also makes sense in my opinion on older ones as they can sustain damage from sunlight but recover faster, though they still need a few days to fully recover depending on how long they were exposed. An Eminent vampire definetelly needs a few days to recover after sunbathing for an hour.

When in 500 BC Jander Sunstar attacked Strahd as well as in 528 BC adventurers assaulted Castle Ravenloft and perished (original Ravenloft adventure) as described in the Ravenloft Timeline Strahd Von Zarovich was a Mature vampire. After being badly burned by the Holy Symbol of Ravenkind (probably in both occasions) he hibernated because he had taken too much damage and needed many days to recover from his sunburns.

Thank you for all the reference and I think everyone has helped quite a bit.

My pleasure...
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