Cannon (boom boom) question

Discussing all things Ravenloft
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Jester of the FoS
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Post by Jester of the FoS »

There are probably alot of cannons in Ravenloft, mostly large ornamental ones on old castes that are now garrisons or owned by wealthy private citizens. I can imagine one or two tucked away in Richemulot or Dementilue. Maybe even the standard noon salute where they fire off a shot at 12 o'clock.

As for Falkovnia, he's stuck in the odd position of only having access to the more advanced weapons (muskets, flintlocks) but none of the early prototypes and the like. So some may be able to use guns and a couple craftsmen may be able to copy them piece-for-peice but they're stumped (at the moment) while trying to reverse-engineer them. They try to make them work but they don't have three centuries of trial-n-error from cannons to early guns to fall back on to explain why things backfire or blow up.
It doesn't help that the Treaty of the Four Towers tries to keep as many guns out of Falkovnian hands as possible. And the Dark Powers may take an active interest toying with the minds of the scientists to prevent them from getting too close.
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Post by Rotipher of the FoS »

One additional problem with reversing the order in which cannons and hand firearms were developed, as compared to IRL history, is that it'd tend to undermine the development of ballistics as a science. Instead of starting with the big, clumsy cannons -- which required a certain degree of crude calculations to operate, even before such ballistic equations were formalized -- it means that Ravenloft's firearms-wielders would have been aiming intuitively, like archers, all along. Adjustments for distance, angle, wind, etc would be mastered by trial-and-error, by individual shooters, so that relevant calculations would be performed unconsciously (same way you or I do intuitive math when we catch a softball); aiming would seem like instinct or "a knack" to both the wielder and any observers.

What does that mean, for cannons? It means that if you ask a Ravenloft firearms-wielder to fire a cannon, their natural inclination is to try to aim the weapon intuitively -- just point it whichever way "feels right" -- in the same way they've learned to consistently aim and fire a hand weapon, without really thinking about it. Unfortunately, because cannons can't be positioned by a single man, and always need re-positioning due to their massive recoil, this isn't going to work: practice won't make perfect, because each shot requires conscious calculation to achieve any level of precision. Everything that Ravenlofters know about firing guns, OTOH, tells them you do so archery-style (i.e. intuitively), so they're likely to blame a cannon's imprecision upon the cannon itself ("Clumsy, useless, oversized waste of iron!"), rather than try an entirely different approach to aiming it.

Unless and until Ravenloft produces a mathematical genius who's inclined to tackle the problem of cannonball trajectories (and no, I wouldn't think it's really Mordenheim's cup of tea), field artillery will remain subject to the "area of effect" rules described in another thread, without any benefit of BAB applied to attacks made with one. The chance of hitting will solely depend on who happens to be standing in the way, and isn't improved no matter how experienced the weapon's crew might be. Faster reload times for veteran/expert crews? Sure! Better aim? No way!
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Post by ScS of the Fraternity »

I don't know, never underestimate the combination of human ambition and competition.

Cannons in ravenloft might have evolved from increasingly large sized rifles. I might imagine that cannister shots were the first real artillery - after all they're just the blunderbus taken to the next magnitude. The Falkovnians might have got a real close look at some of these pieces.

There are several real problems with grapeshot, though. One, the enemy has to be fairly close to the piece for the shot to kill a significant number. Two, the shot is pretty much direct fire, so there can be no protectice wall of grenadiers.
This puts severe pressure on finding a way to make the grapeshot fire longer distances.
Fireing debris would have little effect, since they spread out as the distance increases. But, perhaps someone thought of creating shells - a cylinder of metal with a timed fuse so that the shell releases grapeshot after it has been fired. Apart from being impractical to light a fuse, then throw the bomb into the cannon, metallurgy was too primative to accomadate the shell, so these attempts would have probably failled.
Eventually, however, someone might have designed a shell that was too well insulated to ignite the fuse. And perhaps in the course of these experiments, the inventor used a brick wall to stop the grapeshot. Experiments with these shells showed that while the cannister refused to explode (bad fuse) it did serious damage to the wall.
With further experimentation, the inventor discovered that a solid shot produced even better results, reducing stone walls to smitherines! Even better, the cannon could be fired in an indirect arc.
From these prototypes, the "Blunderbi" evolve into true cannons.
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Post by alhoon »

Bloody Morgan wrote:
I use the d20 Modern Massive Damage rules in my game to help with situations like this - if you take more than your Con in damage from a single attack, make the Fort check or drop to -1 HP.
What is the DC of the save?
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Post by Bloody Morgan »

alhoon wrote:What is the DC of the save?
Off the top of my head, I can't recall. Will check though.
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Post by The_Confessor »

We can all rest in our beds thankful that Vlad Drakov is a moron who hasn't considered all the possibilities he has open to him
In the Mordent game I'm running, one of my PCs is a gunsmith who's father was murdered after crafting a perfect rifle and pistol. (Very Inigo Montoya). What the PC doesn't know is that the person who killed his father and took the weapons was an agent of Drakov and the Dark Lord is planning on using this "new techology" in his next invasion attempt...
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Post by tec-goblin »

15 - but you can use it with UA's variant DC - to raise it by 2 for every 10 points of damage above the threashhold
IMC, I have made it even more dangerous: for every 10 points of damage above your threshhold, you take 1 more point of damage, ie falling to -2 or -3 etc.
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Post by Bloody Morgan »

Thanks Goblin - my copy of Modern is far, far from my grasp at the moment. What's UA btw? I like that system.

I also like that PC Confessor. The plot hook wouldn't fit my game, but he would...

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Post by tec-goblin »

Unearthed Arcana - a book of variants by WotC.
Another popular variant is the "weapon groups proficiencies" one.

Modern is always handy: check the modern srd :)
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Post by alhoon »

tec-goblin wrote:Unearthed Arcana - a book of variants by WotC.
And a very nice variant IMO.
I use the same rule (treshold+10 = +2 DC) for so long (more than 5 years) that I didn't remember it wasn't an official rule. :roll:
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Post by tec-goblin »

alhoon wrote:
tec-goblin wrote:Unearthed Arcana - a book of variants by WotC.
And a very nice variant IMO.
I use the same rule (treshold+10 = +2 DC) for so long (more than 5 years) that I didn't remember it wasn't an official rule. :roll:
:o IMC we started using it about 8 months before UA was out. (actually it was +1 for every points of damage, but it's almost the same). We were very funny when it was brought out.

I think it's one of the rules that should be incorporated in 4.0 - weapon groups too.
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Post by Kessler »

By the way, in Gaz II there are cannons mentioned under Falkovnia section pg. 94: "the Falkovnian army crumbled before the superior weaponry - including gunpowder weapons such as muskets and cannons..."

About the historical background: first signs of cannons date from 1320s (actually a picture where a cannon like thing shoots an arrow). From later date there are mentions of cannons, cannon makers etc. and archaeological finds. The oldest surviving and definitely dated hand held gun is from 1396 (found from Otepää in Estonia). However, hand held guns were probably used before, too. In the middle of 15th century cannons and gunner were quite common in battlefields. But probably cannons were invented first and then guns.

My rules for cannons are simple (although I haven't used them, so these are not "field tested" :) ): dmg: 5d6, crit x4, crew needed to use: 3, aim: 3 full rnd action, reload: 8 full rnd action.
P((hρ (A)- ρ/<έ) →n-∞1 (∑>0)
P(x=k)=(n/k)ρk(ˇ1-ρ)n-k
P(x≥1)=(10/1)•(1/6)•1(1-1/6)10-1+…1
+(10/10) : (1/6)10(1-1/6)0
=0,8385
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