Nahuris wrote:Most of the players I chat with on other forums don't feel 4E has been an improvement at all.
It all depends on the players you choose to chat with.
I'm looking forward to seeing what WotC will do with Ravenloft. Will I like the coming article, and any potential campaign setting books that come out? Who knows?
I do know that there was a lot I ignored and got rid of from 3e Ravenloft for my own games. As NeoTiamat pointed out in another thread, customising Ravenloft to one's personal taste is fairly popular.
His only real danger is if stupidity is contagious and lethal. In which case, we’re all dead…-Gertrude
Pamela wrote:As NeoTiamat pointed out in another thread, customising Ravenloft to one's personal taste is fairly popular.
That's indeed what a RL DM should do IMHO, as Ravenloft talibans is not the way to go either
Joël
"A full set of (game) rules is so massively complicated that the only time they were all bound together in a single volume, they underwent gravitational collapse and became a black hole" (Adams)
I haven't had the time or resources to seriously look into 4E myself yet, so I have been asking a number of other gamers. As far as games go, Ravenloft has always been my favorite of any of the realms out there....
I am hoping that the rumors that I have heard of the "video game" flavor of 4E are being exaggerated.... again, I don't have an opinion, at least not until I actually sit down and read one of the books all the way through.
However, I have been getting some feedback, such as the "minion monsters" with only 1 hit point, ect... and that does not bode well for Ravenloft, at least in my opinion... That and the fact that combats are getting bigger.... i.e. more monsters in an encounter.... again, that seems to be a lot different from the Ravenloft feel.... yes, I will be tailoring my games to fit how my group plays, no matter the system, but if they go too far away, it makes it a lot harder to do.
Nahuris wrote:
However, I have been getting some feedback, such as the "minion monsters" with only 1 hit point, ect... and that does not bode well for Ravenloft, at least in my opinion... That and the fact that combats are getting bigger.... i.e. more monsters in an encounter.... again, that seems to be a lot different from the Ravenloft feel.... yes, I will be tailoring my games to fit how my group plays, no matter the system, but if they go too far away, it makes it a lot harder to do.
Well you don't have to use minion monsters, and the encounter building system is meant so you can include few or many monsters in an encounter; for example, solo and elite monsters I think would be more to people's liking. In theory, a solo monster means that you no longer have the embarrassing problems of your pcs one-shotting your big scary werewolf and the fight fizzling out with no drama whatsoever.
"No, but evil is still being — Is having reason — Being reasonable! Mousie understands? Is always being reason. Is punishing world for not being... Like in head. Is always reason. World should be different, is reason."
Minions are great for the big crazy fights where a dozen zombies lay siege to the inn or the PCs fight a warband of orcs. I love them for henchmen or random thugs. Even adding them into my 3e/pathfinder games.
DasSoviet wrote:
Hopefully, in October, we'll get a better idea of what WotC's plans for the future of Ravenloft are... anybody want to put any money on Cyre being added to the Core?
In my latest Eberron Campaign (last year) i did exactly that. Actually is not a bad concept if worked properly
Jester of the FoS wrote:Minions are great for the big crazy fights where a dozen zombies lay siege to the inn
Yeah, I'm dying to play a "Night of the Living Dead" scenario with the PC's fighting off hordes of zombies.
Man lives in the sunlit world
Of what he believes to be reality.
But, there is, unseen by most, an underworld,
A place that is just as real,
But not as brightly lit.....
A DARKSIDE.
Mangrum wrote:What were you expecting? That they would take pains to ensure that Ravenloft isn't fully compatible with the main game line?
Actually, this is pretty much what I was expecting.
Mangrum wrote:Know why there aren't any dragonborn in Ravenloft? 'Cause "dragonborn" wasn't a PC race during 2nd or 3rd edition. If it had been, they would have been there.
Thanks for pointing out the obvious. I know full why they aren't there, and frankly, had they been around at the time it would have turned me off.
Bluebomber4evr: The Justice, not you, since 2002.
Ravenloft: Prisoners of the Mist Persistent World for Neverwinter Nights: www.nwnravenloft.com
Nahuris: I think that video games may have influenced the design of 4th edition, but that's not a bad thing. the At-will abilities are not overpowering, but are better than just swinging your sword. They are now tailored to the class that you play.
As for Minions, I still have misgivings about them. They just seem like giving out free experience. That said, if they are deployed properly, they can add something to the challenge of the encounter. Honestly, I can see that mechanic given a re-working if they ever do a 4.5 or 5th edition.
Jester: That Zombie Horde does sound interesting...
What I find with the system is more of an emphasis on tactics. Using greater numbers of lower level creatures, when selected properly, will provide that degree of challenge, while the Solo Creature is not to be used lightly, lest it lose it's effect. The Vampire, Mummy and Lich as they present them are elites (twice as tough as a creature of the same level), and look pretty nasty. I think your main villain could be an Elite a couple levels higher than the party with a little bit of Cannon fodder to bring the challenge to the appropriate level. Remember that in most cases, the villain will want the final battle on his turf, and will have chosen lair to suit him and his underlings to suit the lair...
I've dug a little bit deeper on it... haven't made a final judgement as of yet, but am not turning off either. I have noticed that although the rules say that you don't need figurines, everything is written up to reference squares... but that isn't any different than a lot of other games. I've got a few friends that say it focuses too much on combat, and all it is now, is a game of kill the monsters and take their stuff.... but that's not really any different than 1st edition was.... if all you read is the rules. Roleplay is something the players and GM have to add... it's not something that can be mandated into the rules.... and least not without coming off as artificial.
For Night of the Living Dead, I see the minion rule working fairly well... but wouldn't be something you would want to use all the time, especially in Ravenloft. I am glad the fixed the death-kitten scenario..... Basically, the fact that an average house cat had a much better than even chance of killing a first level wizard in melee' combat.... especially in second edition.
I can see where the game will bring in new players... but I was a bit annoyed with the printing format they chose. The text is large, and excessively spaced on the page.... I almost got the impression that they were padding out the size of the book to justify the cost.... especially with the removal of some favored classes, and the promise of further "core" books to come..... But that's a minor annoyance, and reflects the modern economy more than the "evil gaming empire".
I do like the changes they did for some of the monsters..... they now reflect more of what the monster implies, rather than a fixed set of stats. That was always my biggest complaint with 2nd edition.... and while 3rd edition made an attempt at fixing it, the shear number of powerful feats made it possible to circumvent.... which leads me to something else that they did fix - damage resistance. I noticed in 3rd edition, that near the end, you started seeing damage resistances on everything.... with outlandish means of getting around it, such as creatures that only vulnerable to stone weapons, ect. I know that it was needed to deal with the plethora of damage increasing feats, but it did tend to bog the game down further..... and it looks like they fixed it.
All in all - I will continue to look into it...... but I want to see some more of it before I make a final decision.
I am glad the fixed the death-kitten scenario.....
Or the death-rat and death-horse scenario. I knew a player who, back in 2E, got caught by a startled horse that was rearing up. The horse slammed him in the face with both hooves and killed him. That one is realistic, but man, talk about an inglorious end.
And in 3E, another player ended up getting aced out by a rat. Not a dire rat, skeletal rat, or anything of the sort. Regular old rat that he couldn't score any hits against, but which kept nailing him with unerring accuracy, dealing 1 HP each time til he was out. I keep picturing that fight playing out similar to this.
Man lives in the sunlit world
Of what he believes to be reality.
But, there is, unseen by most, an underworld,
A place that is just as real,
But not as brightly lit.....
A DARKSIDE.
In my upcoming (next year or so) 4E Ravenloft Campaign I plan to nerf the PCs a little (cutting the extended rest mostly) and beef up the entire world. That means that a random villager can be anywhere from lvl 3 to lvl 8 (lvl 1 and 2 are reserved for children and the like, except, you know, the creeeeepy children). That would give the feeling that the PCs are more down to earth withouth removing their fancy powers AND make the whole setting more dangerous (mob mob mob). I'm sure the minions rule will go along nicely with my plans but we'll have to see.
Although I am still looking into DnD 4E.... I ran into a problem.
None of the group I have wants to change over to it..... they've all heard these bad things about it, and can't believe I am being suckered via WotC's blatant attempt to syphon off money.....ect.
So for now, I am going to continue watching it.... I'll probably buy the monster manuals (I have so many monster manuals for the various games out there....LOL) and stay running my Ravenloft under the Warhammer Fantasy Rules (at least until my players agree to looking at other systems)
My final take on the 4E is that they did borrow a lot from computer games.... who of course got their ideas from the original table top games... but that the system doesn't matter nearly as much as the GM.... a decent GM can run any system, and make it fun... while it doesn't matter how good the system is with a mediocre GM.....
I just need to make sure that I rise above the mediocre, and the system wouldn't matter as much
In my limited experience with 4E, I found it a system that runs smoothly, quickly and is intuitive and easy to learn. Preparing monster stats takes less time than in 3E. More preparation time, therefore, goes left over to prepare non-combat stuff.
Combat encounters tend to involve more adversaries and bigger stretches of terrain. Incidentally, this allows the battles to run for more rounds, and makes sure everyone gets to do something interesting before the encounter is over. Most of the time. Creating completely new monsters is very easy and more fun than in previous editions.
Non-combat encounters tend to be more freeform, more akin to interactive storytelling. Almost no dice are rolled outside of combat. You can get away with more "statless" NPCs.
The mood of the game seems to depend heavily on the frequency of combat encounters. When they are standard fare, the PCs feel very capable and heroic. When combat happens rarely, and involve adversaries two, three or four levels above the party level, the PCs develop a prudent mentality and feel more fragile - and depend more on quest XP to advance in level. Despite this, character death is less common.
On the other hand, the system all but requires the DM to keep up with the latest supplements. Core rulesbooks contain only the most basic stuff you need. For a really rich assortment of player options, monsters and magic items, be prepared to have to buy a lot more books than just the basic 3.
Getting a 4E game started with an anti-4E-set group is often easier to accomplish if you market it as just a curiosity trial, not a forced switch. People tend to enjoy the system once they've actually tried it. 1st-level characters for such a test run can be created quite quickly.
