Café de Nuit

alhoon wrote: ↑Fri Jan 12, 2024 10:55 pm
Isn't Elena the Darklord?

Aberration fits Gwydeon well too. They also don't get reality wrinkles.

Elena is the Darklord of Nidala, Ebonbane is the Darklord of Shadowborn Manor (and, in some weird way, of the Phantasmal Forest, which from my understanding is peppered with the pseudo-pocket Domains of those Ebonbane corrupted linked to Kateri Shadowborn, which would IMO make them demilords like in Liffe of the Nocturnal Sea Gazetteer, but likely subservient to Ebonbane if he ever managed to escape).

And yes, but I'll likely keep him a fiend, it has to do with his expanded backstory I'm working on. It has precedent, as 2 of the Elder Evils in the book of the same name are fiends despite their cosmic horror nature (Zargon is an Ancient Baatorian while Sertrous is an Obyrith). He may not get a reality wrinkle though since some fiends like rakshasas and night hags don't have one. A non-imprisoned CR40 supernatural horror can probably batten down the Mists' and/or Dark Powers' barriers without one methinks.

Mephisto of the FoS wrote: ↑Sat Jan 13, 2024 1:14 am Elena Fainthold is Darklord of Nidala
Ebonbane is Darklord of Shadowborn Manor
Morgoroth is Darklord of Avonleigh

Yep, and the rest of your post is spot-on too. I'll be using that lore as the basis for my treatment of the Shadowlands, though there is one BIG change in store for them...

Wolfglide of the Fraternity wrote: ↑Sat Jan 13, 2024 1:58 am [That is my understanding of it as well. With Ebonbane sealed in a sword (or sealed in Alexei Shadowborn inside a crystal casket, depending on the point in time and whether or not I remembered that correctly) and Gwydion sealed in the Obsidian Gate, they can be bound to their domains (and their repeated failures to escape their prisons are part of their torment). If either slipped their bonds, they could perhaps make their own way out (probably doing quite a bit of damage in the process, in Gwydion's case), as they are such powerful and unique fiends.

...And it'll definitely be a strongly-suggested campaign idea to stop them from freeing themselves given how catastrophic that would be for both the demiplane and beyond (ESPECIALLY Gwydion, whose aims would be cataclysmic for the very cosmology of the D&D multiverse); the machinations/attempts at freedom of fiends will definitively figure a lot in my timeline, including among others a Gentleman, a Duke, a Beast... and one with a book of contracts.

Interesting ideas! I look forward to hearing more about them when they're ready, though I must ask: what do you mean by Gwydion's aims? I really don't recall him having any specific goals from his canon write-ups, other than lording over the ellefolk that became the Shadow Fey, and then him wanting to get out of imprisonment. Is this something you're developing yourself or referencing from canon? If it's the former, then I apologize for asking as I figure that's something not yet ready to be revealed.

If Vecna couldn't break out without absorbing Iuz, I don't see how Gwydeon or Ebonbane could.

All I really have on the subject of Ebonbane is a line from material cut from Secrets of the Dread Realms that is now on Mistipedia:

Incorporeal: Can only be harmed by other incorporeal creatures, magic weapons, or magic, with a 50% chance to ignore any damage from a corporeal source. Can pass through solid objects at will, and own attacks pass through armor. Always moves silently. Due to Ebonbane’s unusual fiendish nature, if Ebonbane is freed from its material host it can pass through closed domain borders or even escape Ravenloft entirely.

In this case, it would appear (from my perspective) that Ebonbane's nature as a unique spiritual entity renders him able to transition between the planes in a unique way. The Dark Powers can only hold him as long as he is merged with a host that they can trap more conventionally.

The point about Vecna absorbing Iuz does set a certain expectation for the amount of power a darklord needs to force its way out, and Ebonbane's statistics (11 HD outsider) don't live up to the expectation in that way. Gwydion, on the other hand, has 48 HD (compared to Vecna's 40, according to Deities and Demigods), though he has no acknowledged divine ranks (and the Deities and Demigods stats could use updates to account for the Epic Level Handbook that came out several months later). His stat block is incomplete, however (only representing him while trapped), and he is supposedly strong enough to have torn the Shadow Rift into the face of the Core while trying to escape during the Grand Conjunction. If he can do that while sealed, I can only imagine how strong he is outside of the Obsidian Gate.

I think there's a reason this was cut from Ebonbane, and I think the reason is that EB is not incorporeal actually and it was an abandoned idea. I don't like the idea of Ebonbane being transcendent, I prefer him trapped, like Enseric in the sword of Neverwinter Nights.

Speedwagon wrote: ↑Tue Jan 16, 2024 12:52 am Interesting ideas! I look forward to hearing more about them when they're ready, though I must ask: what do you mean by Gwydion's aims? I really don't recall him having any specific goals from his canon write-ups, other than lording over the ellefolk that became the Shadow Fey, and then him wanting to get out of imprisonment. Is this something you're developing yourself or referencing from canon? If it's the former, then I apologize for asking as I figure that's something not yet ready to be revealed.

Oh, it's stuff I'm developing with a friend for my setting update/progression, not "canon"; we consider that an intelligent fiend as mighty as Gwydion (CR 40 in 3.5 is a LOT of power when you consider even the strongest version of Demogorgon, the one from Savage Tide, is CR 33, and as mentioned Gwydion is likely even mightier once fully freed) would definitely have more plans in store than just getting its slaves back to lord over once it's freed, and those plans are not to the Multiverse's benefit.

I don't mind you asking at all (if anything I'm flattered) but I hope in return you won't mind me asking you to wait a bit- I'm working on a prose piece written from Gwydion's perspective that 'somehow' found its way to the demiplane outside the Rift, likely involving a seer going irrevocably mad from the revelation while penning it. I will say that it's tied to my deciding to make it an Elder Evil, and to pre-5e cosmologies/metaphysics/"ways things worked", and worse besides. He will be more of a looming apocalyptic threat than he ever was, and not just for Ravenloft.

As for other things:

Considering Vecna, it also must be noted that he was a Darklord for only 5 years at most, with the Burning Peaks Cluster appearing in 750 BC and the Whispered One escaping in 755; he likely would have found a way to escape sooner or later, no absorbing Iuz needed, but likely chose the one that was either the fastest/easiest, or that was the best way to accomplish his further goal of apotheosis. If anything his imprisonment by the Dark Powers may have actually helped him on that front given the demiplane's peculiar planar properties, and since he's now a full (if lesser) god it was a partial success at least.

For Ebonbane I was thinking of using the statblock from the cut section of Secrets of the Dread Realms as a base, yes (sorry, alhoon), probably boosting it a bit to make it a threat on the level of the stronger non-Gwydion canon statted Darklords such as Azalin, Strahd and Meredoth, and to make it a bit more in-line with the power level expected of an archfiend (CR 21-24, likely).

That said, Ebonbane's prison would be a very tough nut to crack, as even if it managed to overcome my almost-namesake Alexi I'd have it trapped back in its former sword form and unable to escape its Domain while stuck in said sword form (the Dark Powers may not be omnipotent but they are very good at ironic trickery), and it'd have its work cut out as Gondegal and the Knights of the Circle would definitely realize the dire threat and respond as strongly and appropriately as they can, likely leading to a "shadow war" in the Phantasmal Forest and adjacent Domains -and a very good hook for PC intervention. I'd leave it as a Dread Possibility so DMs can do what they want with the concept (default state of Ebonbane at campaign start would be still stuck in Alexi), but Ebonbane would be another major threat of my setting update anyway due to the nature of the Phantasmal Forest and the big change to the Shadowlands I've got planned.

Oh but don't worry about the other Darklords being eclipsed too much, many will receive a glow-up... including the first one of them all.

I don't think Gwydeon should be CR40 ... and I don't think Demogorgon should be CR33 to be honest.
Demogorgon should be powerful enough to be dangerous challenge for a group of six level 20 characters. That means, Demogorgon should be CR 26-27. By putting G above Demogorgon as a challenge we end with a CR 28 creature...

that said: Good luck correctly calculating the CR of a CR28 creature. It is very circumstantial.

LOL thanks, I know that CR/levels get kinda borked when they go above 20th level, but I'll try anyway. The friend helping me is really good at this kind of stuff so that should be a big help. Also TBF in Savage Tide Demogorgon's stats are that powerful only if un-nerfed, and if the players did their job correctly there's a shitload of Demogorgon's enemies/rivals who'll be nerfing him, among them heavy-hitters like Charon, Iggwilv (hands-down my favourite D&D villain ever), Morwel, Gwynharwyf, Obox-Ob, Orcus and Malcanthet, so it becomes actually doable.

As for Gwydion, he's actually listed at CR40 Gazetteer 5, and I need him at a comparable level of power for what I have in store for him if he manages to free himself; he's gonna be a multiversal threat after all.

It is not so much that CR is broken when you go to level 20 (or even level 15). It is that 17th level party A is very different in terms of powers and weaknesses compared to 17th level party B. Party A may be more fire-based (spells, abilities, attacks) while party B may be more fire-resistant. Thus, Party A would do much worse against a red dragon that party B would.

Thus, the "variation" of how difficult is THIS CR 17 creature against THIS 17th level party is great.

This may be slightly off topic, but I have a couple questions regarding reality wrinkles...

1) Is there any class (such as a paladin) that can detect a fiend's reality wrinkle? I can't find anything definite for 3e and have never even seen it discussed for 5e.

2) Do half-fiends (specifically the children of the Gentlement Caller) even get reality wrinkles? Again, I don't believe this was ever addressed in 3e.

Reality winkles are hard to not notice if I recall it correctly.

Jeremy16 wrote: ↑Sat Feb 17, 2024 7:16 am This may be slightly off topic, but I have a couple questions regarding reality wrinkles...

1) Is there any class (such as a paladin) that can detect a fiend's reality wrinkle? I can't find anything definite for 3e and have never even seen it discussed for 5e.

20th level monks have their own reality wrinkles I think, but no one can detect them except a paladin, maybe an innocent (corruption level) individual or blessed feat can.

Jeremy16 wrote: ↑Sat Feb 17, 2024 7:16 am 2) Do half-fiends (specifically the children of the Gentlement Caller) even get reality wrinkles? Again, I don't believe this was ever addressed in 3e.

Yes they have, Mosnter hunters Volume III has Malocchio Aderre having one.

Huh, and here I thought that "native" fiends such as half-fiends and rakshasas didn't get reality wrinkles. I don't remember Arijani even been given one in any case.

As for Malocchio, he could be atypical in this, as he is in many other instances. But that's just me speculating.

paireon wrote: ↑Sat Feb 17, 2024 4:29 pm Huh, and here I thought that "native" fiends such as half-fiends and rakshasas didn't get reality wrinkles. I don't remember Arijani even been given one in any case.

As for Malocchio, he could be atypical in this, as he is in many other instances. But that's just me speculating.

I tend to agree with this assessment. Such "native outsiders" would not have reality wrinkles, only special fiendish abilities they inherited from their progenitors. I think reality wrinkles should only be for fiends that have been transported to Ravenloft only. It makes it easier for half-fiends to blend into normal society better and harder to detect by those who may be on the lookout for such otherworldly beings.

Since there are very few canon references to this phenomena, I'm curious to see other people's opinions are...

Azalin in the old Kargatane site has explicitly stated that half-fiends get reality wrinkles. Even Githyanki do.