It is back!!! What we do know about VR Guide to Ravenloft?

[Zilfer]

It also has Nuikin? Wasn't that a noble family as well... wasn't it the guy from Scholar of Decay? Apparently the family is known for their intelligence.

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

Yeah I'll be curating what i use out of it basically, but just excited to see some different ideas on it.

I don't think anyone who has ever posted here will just say "OK, this is Ravenloft now" and throw out everything from the past. Maybe someone might run a campaign in this new Ravenloft, but the vast majority of us will be doing just that, picking and choosing. It's clearly meant as an alternate, rebooted Ravenloft, but I've seen very little that couldn't be massaged into part of the future or potential future of original Ravenloft. I will never break up the core into isolated islands, but I might decide that Azalin's latest scheme is threatening to shatter Darkon like this. (And the PCs have to find a way to solidify their home domain....) Or maybe Saidra will take over for Dominic and have him sent to an Asylum.

We've complained before about a lack of "Advancing the timeline," well here it is.

What would be "lazy" would be rehashing the same text we've seen in The Black Box, and The Red Box, and Domains of Dread, and The RCS, and The RL Player's Handbook. (Yes, I'm being a bit unfair to Domains of Dread and RCS there, in that those two in particular did a lot of work to stitch the setting together into a real world, but some of those were verbatim retreads or nearly so). I'm much happier seeing new stuff, even if I don't like all of it, than another coat of paint and new edition rules slapped on the old stuff without any real changes.

[Drinnik Shoehorn]

Stolen from Reddit


Harken Lukas.

He’s been on a diet, lost his fashion sense and become a loud-garou.

The 50/50 is not 20/80 against getting it.

Edit: You know, the more I look at this picture, the more I don’t like it.

The only storyteller vibe I’m getting from it is “Uncle Remus” from Song of the South.

It’s like it’s a caricature of what a Southern “Gentlemen” from 1800s America would describe if asked to describe an African American minstrel. It just seems very derivative and some how, I dunno, racist? He doesn’t look charming, he doesn’t look suave or dangerous, he looks like he just stepped out of Huck Finn or something similar. Lukas is supposed to be suave, dangerous and seductive. This picture looks borderline stereotypical and slightly offensive.

I don’t know, maybe it’s the quality of the photo, maybe it looks better in person.

Maybe I’m over reacting, but what ever it is, it’s not good art.

[Jonathan Winters]

Yes Drinnik,

I saw that image earlier on FB. Maybe it's me too, but after reading about how the Guide is trying to be politically correct, this image seems cliché(?) somehow. Harkon Lukas from the South? Something does not connect with me here...

I will wait and see. I am happy to see new RL stuff... But... I don't know... just feels(?) weird.

Then again it might be me...

Patrick

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

Yeah... I gotta admit, if you're going to race swap some characters, maybe the one who's a literal minstrel isn't the right one to choose.

The art itself is fine, IMHO, but it doesn't say "Affably Evil" like Harkon really ought to.

[Drinnik Shoehorn]

Yeah... I gotta admit, if you're going to race swap some characters, maybe the one who's a literal minstrel isn't the right one to choose.

The art itself is fine, IMHO, but it doesn't say "Affably Evil" like Harkon really ought to.

The whole domain has a Germanic theme anyway, so race swapping here seems, I dunno, inappropriate?

[Jonathan Winters]

Unless you completely ignore this?

Like, what was it? Much ado about nothing ? With Denzel Washington and (?) Keanu Reeves being brothers. I totally forget... And no explanations were given or needed.

But if you go that way, do you forget about the germanic tones of Kartakass? Or simply have white and black germanic people?

And I ask this in a very sensitive way: If we ''integrate'' POC with white people in a ''generic'' culture, does this really help with diversity? Diversity which is needed. I really don't have a problem with.

And I'm really asking this in a respectful way.

If I'm offending someone in the way I write this, I just got my first Pfizer shot yesterday and feel rather zombie-like today... Seriously. My brain is mushy.

[Igor the Henchman]

20 years... 20 years I've been waiting for you to say that, Iggy...

16 years, actually. But who's counting?

[Mephisto of the FoS]

In the video he has killed all the names even words that are clearly english like House of Lament or Vampiric Mind Slayer. The adventure is one reason to buy the book, although being a 1st level adventure it must be really different than the 2nd edition Darklords House of Lament were it had blood elementals created from it's bleeding walls. Nice maps but in general useless since the domains geography is different even without the Core. Port-a-Lucine has expanded which is nice but the ruins of Ste. Mere des Larmes have moved south... but the structure around the church are similar to the Black Box but I still believe the map that the map in the Mausoleum by Lostboy is better. Akriel is here again cool, but I must say I prefer the old Harkon Lukas version, it is also one of my favourite Ral Partha miniatures and it's a shame he is loup-garou now. Relentless killer looks like he came directly from Mad Max...
And the Wereraven has arms, legs and wings now instead of just wings and legs, looks more like a kenku now.

Zombie Clot = NOT

[Wolfglide of the Fraternity]

But if you go that way, do you forget about the germanic tones of Kartakass? Or simply have white and black germanic people?

Having Germanic people of color is certainly and option. Worldbuilding shouldn't be restricted to recreating facsimiles of real-world ethnic groups. I like to see the variety that comes from thinking outside of that box. For example, the Valachani are dark-skinned, but their society is inherited from folkloric Vaasi invaders.

A great non-Ravenloft example would be in Ursula K. Le Guin's Earthsea books, where the majority of people in the archipelago are darker skinned (except for the white people of the Kargad lands), but their societies aren't directly analogous to anything in our world.

Of course, while having Germanic people of color is interesting, it does build into a pre-existing body of European-adjacent civilizations. Creating societies drawn from other regions of the world is good for diversifying both the people represented in the game and the variety of stories that can be told. The tricky part is avoiding accidentally making a caricature of a society or ethnicity.

[Jonathan Winters]

Wolfglide,

Thanks for your response.

So much in there.

Aside: I just ordered and received the Complete Earthsea novels this week. Wow. Synchronicity. I hope I enjoy them (illustrations by Charles Vess!!!)

With regards to RL, yeah, I totally get what you're saying. And full disclosure, I am a white, almost 50 years old heterosexual man. So there. I think it matters to know such things sometimes, especially with our topic.

I guess my questions here have to do with: Sooo... we have POCs in a fantasy setting where it ''means'' nothing other than diversity. Is this really good in the long run? Does this help? I would be inclined to say yes.

But it opens up possibly another question: If we have POCs characters without any racial overtones, racism or as-close-to-historical context as we can have here, does it serve any inclusive purpose towards players ''from the diversity''. Please note the quotation marks for respect here (and English isn't my first language so if I say anything that offends, please let me know).

Do we have any ''diverse'' players here? (Man, I hope so.)

But then RL has always been about stereotypes to some extant (extent?). Abour racist stereotypes? Weeelll... Souragne anyone? There is racism in the domain OTOH, but unless you are pretty dumb, it's easy to see the injustice. Please correct me if it's been too long since I read that.

I THINK in this instance Harkon Lukas, like I said, is creating some uneasiness because, to me, he kinda looks like the guy from Outkast (GREAT BAND btw.) And he's supposed to come from some germanic setting?!? We are getting confused. Also, the Disney-ification in the images that seems to pervade at times. Another concern of mine is that we are living in very sensitive times (too much possibly at times IMHO). So it FEELS like maybe Wizards is shying away from anything contraversial. Oy. Whatever. But, let's see, it FEELS like they want villains that aren't too villainous. It FEELS like Drakov isn't too fürher-like, hence the zombie plague (mind you I don't mind that too much but I think we could have both).

BUT, please, let's see the book first.

On the other hand, I quickly saw the WF twins. Are they black now? I say, cool. And it comes across more easily cos I don't remember any racial overtones in their domains. Their (other) fight was more feminism I guess?

I hope I am still making sense here. It's going to be judged on a case by case basis as far as domains and characters go I think, I hope.

Patrick

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

One important thing to mention, I think, is that Middle Ages Europe, or Renaissance Europe even moreso, is not as monolithically white as we tend to think of it as. No, it wasn't 21st century San Francisco diverse, but there were black people in Germany at the time Kartakass evokes, and not always as slaves imported from African colonies. We don't often see non-white faces in media meant to represent those times, which is probably why it's jarring at first for some, but they were there. More in the southern reaches of Europe of course, along the Mediterranean, to be sure, but even as far north as England.

Kartakass is not Germany, though. It has some trappings of Germany, which does lend it a veneer of realism, but it's a fantasy place. There's no reason to expect a fantasy place has the same history with race that our world has had.

[Jester of the FoS]

Plus, Ravenloft is also an artificial world.
Lukas was taken from the Forgotten Realms (IIRC) and Kartakass created whole cloth by the Dark Powers rather than being a direct copy of a region of the Realms.
If mashing up Germanic architecture and aesthetics AND inventing a unique musical government is perfectly fine then why is a variety of cosmetic ethnicities the line?

Honestly, I was fine with Lukas but upset at the absence of the monocle. Until Drinnik Shoehorn pointed out he looks like a deep South Huck Finn caricature and I can't unsee it.

[Wolfglide of the Fraternity]

Aside: I just ordered and received the Complete Earthsea novels this week. Wow. Synchronicity. I hope I enjoy them (illustrations by Charles Vess!!!)

Nice. That is how I got to enjoy those books for the first time.

With regards to RL, yeah, I totally get what you're saying. And full disclosure, I am a white, almost 50 years old heterosexual man. So there. I think it matters to know such things sometimes, especially with our topic.

Yeah, I am also coming at this issue from a white male perspective.

I guess my questions here have to do with: Sooo... we have POCs in a fantasy setting where it ''means'' nothing other than diversity. Is this really good in the long run? Does this help? I would be inclined to say yes.

But it opens up possibly another question: If we have POCs characters without any racial overtones, racism or as-close-to-historical context as we can have here, does it serve any inclusive purpose towards players ''from the diversity''. Please note the quotation marks for respect here (and English isn't my first language so if I say anything that offends, please let me know).

Since RPGs often serve as a way of escaping into another world, sometimes people like to leave certain problems behind. After all, we shouldn't have to deal with all of the icky problems of the real world while we are trying to have fun. Having the game be more representative while also not being a complete social commentary is a reasonable approach.
That being said, including reflections of real issues also makes the game world richer and more realistic. It can make the story more compelling, and it especially makes sense in a horror genre.

extant (extent?)

Since you asked, it would be "extent." "Extant" refers to something that is in existence.

[Drinnik Shoehorn]

I would argue race switching isn’t helpful. Let’s take the twins as an example. In artwork in previous editions they’ve been depicted as white, upper class pseudo-Victorian ladies who are considered outcasts. In the imaginations of established fans, they see white ladles.

Now in the new edition they’re black, and their outfits don’t look pseudo-Victorian. The problem arises when an established fan says, “but they’re not black” because to them, they have never been black.

When race swapping is done, it’s typically defended by calling the people who don’t like it racist, then bringing out buzzwords like “privilege” (my ex-husband was a sociology major and explained to me that the concept of privilege and intersectionality are classroom tools and weren’t designed to be applied in the real world as they ignore individual experience, but that’s a digression and a separate conversation). Naturally, the older fans are insulted to being called racist, but every argument they have against such a change is dismissed with them being called racist.

My problem with race swapping is, what point does it serve? It artificially increases diversity for the sake of story, it in some cases can turn out problematic itself, like I’ve suggested with Lukas, it shows a lack of creativity in the authors in that it implies they can’t think of their own original characters, it shows a lack of respect and care for the setting, it treats its audience like idiots because it assumes they all need “diversity is good” spelling out for them and it cheapens the setting.

I tick several progressive stack boxes, being gay, having several hidden disabilities, coming from a broken home,, etc, but I don’t need every product I read to have a gay, depressed, dyspraxic man who’s parents have broken up. But writers such as we have got would try and shoehorn in at least one of the progressive stack markers because “diversity”.

Forced diversity is bad. It’s got to the point Idris Elba is getting criticised because his character in Luther isn’t “black enough.” It’s not about getting angry because Lukas is black, it’s about getting angry at needless change for change’s sake. They had an opportunity with the new edition to make new interesting and diverse characters, but they haven’t, they’ve refused to and they’ve done the cheapest, laziest thing in changing existing characters and will dismiss anyone who has a legitimate complaint by calling them a bigot.