The Sorcerer

[Jester of the FoS]

Ah, missed the specialization bit for that example, although I did read it later on.
And Evocation spec wizard though loses out on two spell schools and must always have a damage spell though. This makes investigation and non-combat a mite harder.

[Jester of the FoS]

Oh, and Wizards and Sorcerers both have the same number of skills per level. The wizard, on average, just ends up with a few more because their highest stat is intelligence. If a sorc roles well they are equally skilled and also have the benefits of high charisma and diplomacy skills.

[Troile]

Well I know as a sorcerer intelligence would be the last thing I would put a good roll into...

Oh I don't want to have to do math...

I'll do that in a bit I think my brain hurts.

As far as the specialization goes...how could you not specialize? Its one of the best things a wizard has going...sure you give up necromancy and another school...you still have plenty of spells available to choose from...I don't think it is a problem for a utility mage at all. Transmutation is an awesome specialty...forgive me for seeming base but I can't comprehend playing a wizard w/o a specialty. Its just one of those things.

My favourite wizard was a diviner w/o necromancy...he usually wouldn't even cast all of his spells per day but he was always prepared for as much as he could be just in case...

of course that doesn't prove our point

but take for example the transmuter with necromancy and illusion banned. There is no way a wizard is going to learn all of the spells anyway, it is a bit of hindrance but it doesn't directly affect his capabilities.

A wizard wouldn't even be able to prepare spells from all of the schools if he wanted to.

[Ivana_Boritsi]

No I'm not going to convince you...b/c you don't like to read my posts...whether you agree with me or not, the sorcerer is weak.

I don't think you were getting the gist of my post. I wasn't trying to be inflammatory. I was merely pointing out that we have to agree to disagree at this point. I'm not going to convince you and you're not going to convince me. Clearly, you believe that the sorcerer is weak. Clearly, I do not. Saying that it is a fact that the sorcerer is weak does not make it so. There is, after all, the great monk debate - too powerful or too weak? Moving on.

So, I was attempting to address the problem that you posed at the very beginning of this thread. How do you fix this "weak" class? (I put weak in parentheses to indicate that we do not agree on this one point.)

If I were going to pump up the sorcerer, I would probably give them the same bonus feat progression that the wizard has, or bump the HD to a d6. The change in HD, I think, would make sense, and really change the class. The sorcerer would be able to take alot more risk, and could afford to get crazy every once in a while.

Again, most of my opinions are based on hours of gameplay, where I've seen the sorcerer outshine the wizard on numerous occasions. (Not to say that the wizard isn't powerful in his/her own right.) So, finally, I would recommend you try playing a sorcerer. And again, when you play one, if you still find them lacking, you'll probably get a better insight on how you want to house rule them.

P.S. Sorry that there was a misunderstanding here.

[Troile]

hey it is alright.

I just took offense to the number crunching.

My posts were really 2 fold...and I think you're right. Playing a lot more will let you figure out how to fix it...

And I do think it needs a fix...if only b/c it doesn't live up to its roleplaying purpose very well imo...or at least not as well as it could, that and like I said I don't think it stands up to the spell power of a wizard.

Though I thought about how I would go about fixing it this morning and I just kept running into dead ends.

Can't really touch the spell area...it is carefully balanced...I mean you want the sorcerer to be a really powerful mage, but you also want the wizard to ultimately hold more leverage...so what do you do...you don't want to have the sorcerer outshine the other classes, esp. the bard. The bard is the real problem to boosting the sorcerer's other qualities. The bard is half a mage, half a rogue, and half of something else entirely (3 halves, but thats why the bard is good). You don't want something with insane spellcasting ability which the sorcerer has...(though the wizard is even more insanity) to start being good in other areas. It is tough. Which is why I can see that they have left the sorcerer alone.

I'll keep thinking about it though...something that adds to the flavour of the sorcerer w/o making it really strong.

That is why I originally thought about adding just a touch of fighting capability...that way it wouldn't be moving into the bard's territory and it wouldn't be enough at all for any of the fighting classes to complain

It is tough.

[Ivana_Boritsi]

Yeah, I wouldn't add fighting capacity to the sorcerer. It's a low BAB class to start with. If you raised their base to hit to the level of a bard...that would make the class way too powerful. And giving them more access to weapons doesn't make sense.

I wouldn't worry about treading on the territory of the bard, however. Don't forget the bard's primary ability - their songs. Those make the barb class really shine. Especially at the higher levels.

[Wiccy of the Fraternity]

I just looked through the number of wizards I have played, at least frmo the character sheets I have kept, the total I still have is 11 character sheets and I am sure there are a few more I remember playing, but don't have the sheets for (probably lost among notes hidden somewhere in a dusty box or got thrown out somehow). However, looking through those, only 3 of those cheets were specialised wizards, going through AD&D 2E and D&D d20. I just like the core class to the wizard and see specialisation as an optional extra to take sometimes, but not often. There are spells ibn each school of magic that I like to use, so specialising would barr me from using certain spelsl from my favourites

[Troile]

Thats crazy.

I guess depending on the group everyone plays the game completely differently.

I couldn't imagine not specializing.

go figure

[Wiccy of the Fraternity]

As I said before, to me the true key to a wizard is the vast amount of knowledge skills. To me that offers great roleplaying potential. So I look at a wizard as a library on legs that is able to cast spells.

Also remember that alot of the wizards I have run were in 2E, where it was much harder to specialise, though I did often fill the requirements for it, I just chose not to specialise. I would think of the character I was trying to builkd and what would suit that character, not what would suit the class

[Troile]

see now my roleplaying is being attacked.

Personally not only does specialization improve the class power tremendously but I see it as a great role playing tool

People think I'm bashing sorcerers...but really I love the idea of the sorcerer I just think the non-spellcasting areas should reflect the idea of the class.

Of course you can't just start improving things so I attempted to justify the improvement by showing that sorcerers are inferior spellcasters than wizards (which when you specialize as a wizard is true)

not only that but sorcerers have a pathetic skill list and don't get any other perks like bonus feats. All they get a couple more weapons which in the long run don't really help since they can't fight.

I don't think it would hurt to give them d6 hit die, more skills, more skill points and you could even poke around and give them something interesting too. Or maybe just give them the option for something interesting with drawbacks? Kind of like specialization...I don't know

I'm certainly not satisfied with the way they are...and it is all b/c I don't think they live up to the idea of what they're supposed to be.

[Wiccy of the Fraternity]

see now my roleplaying is being attacked.

Heheh, I hope yo uare joking there mate

Anyway, let's see if the Sorcerer can be boosted a bit.

HD - d6
Class Skills - Bluff, Concentration, Craft, Diplomacy, Disguise, Intimidate, Knowledge (all skills), Profession, Ride, Spellcraft, Survival.
Skill Ranks - initial (4+ Int) x4, thereafter 4+ Int.
Weapons & Armour - Unchanged
Spells - Unchanged
Familiar - Unchanged
Specialisation - As Wizard

Does that suit your tastes a bit better than the canon class? Personally, I think it is over powered and just needed the additional skills and skill ranks. I left out the bonus feats intentionally, when I looked at the list I just thought the class was far to powerful. In fact I think it is to powerful with the Specialisation. Just remember, what you do in your games is your own, if you think something is wrong, change it

[Troile]

I think the knowledges are strictly a wizard thing...

The sorcerer is supposed to be the chaotic and adventurous wizard...

Specialization as wizard is so broken.

I think you'd have to tailor something specific to the sorcerer. I think 1 extra spell slot per level might be a bit much...but then who knows...you would definately have to tweak the drawback...like say you can only choose from 3 schools? instead of prohibiting only 2...

[Troile]

Troile wrote:
see now my roleplaying is being attacked.


Heheh, I hope yo uare joking there mate Wink

yeah it was tongue in cheek

[Jason of the Fraternity]

Specialization as wizard is so broken. I think you'd have to tailor something specific to the sorcerer. I think 1 extra spell slot per level might be a bit much...but then who knows

What about using something along the lines of the bloodline feats from the Arcane Ancestry (Dragon #311) and Arcane Ancestry 2 (Dragon #325) articles? These feats allow a sorcerer to gain an extra known spell per spell level, but the sorcerer is then restricted from choosing certain types of other spells.

For example, the anarchic bloodline provides color spray (1st-level), Tasha's hideous laughter (2nd-level), rage (3rd-level), etc. as bonus spells. However, the sorcerer with this background cannot learn or cast spells with the lawful descriptor. I realize that it isn't the same as specialization, but you could use this method to help compensate between the two.

Since one extra spell known per spell-level doesn't completely work the same, I would also recommend that the sorcerer possibly get two or three other bonus bloodline feats at higher levels (10th perhaps?). Again, the articles provide other benefits that can be gained after a particular bloodline is chosen. Perhaps at 5th-level, the sorcerer gains a another insight to his/her inherent magical heritage...

Again, I don't think that this completely recreates the specialization idea for the sorcerer class. I do think that it brings it a bit closer while keeping within the idea of the sorcerer's style of magic, though. Anyway, some food for thought.

[ScS of the Fraternity]

yeah it was tongue in cheek

Eye lyke to tok wit tung n cheak, ow!

Ahem, I mean, I like to talk with tongue in cheek, but it causes much pain and confusion.