Top 5 worthless domains

[Five]

Gothic horror does apply to European cultures. Traditionally anyway ("gothic" root). Not much (read: no) gothic can be found in Asia or in Native's lands. But that's not to say that the core of its themes, "tropes", cannot be applied to other cultures.

Like it or not, there's Saint Nicolas, then there's Santa Claus...

The tropes apply to any culture, real and fantasy, Europe, Asia and otherwise. The tropes aren't geographically assigned rather having to do with the topics involved and perceptions used. It's true that the first gothic horror writers were European, and the geography they used in their stories involved European locations - but that isn't a requirement for gothic horror.

Gothic horror is about the atmosphere, symbolism used, and stories told.

While there are certainly tropes used in Japanese horror that are outside of gothic horror, much of Japanese horror is gothic horror.

@Five - you say, that 'no' gothic horror exists in Asia, whereas, I'd say almost all the horror (with many, many examples) are all gothic horror, with some uniquely non-gothic elements included. The fact that most ghosts, demons and afflicted individuals of Japanese lore are usually women, is a very gothic horror trope. Castle ruined locations, evil churches, evil wizards, creepy cemeteries are all gothic horror elements, and none have to do with any specific geographic location - such things can be found in any setting.

And I say if you take the gothic out of gothic horror, then you end up with horror. Replace the setting, then you make the name change. Gothic horror becomes Japanese horror, etc. So in that sense, gothic horror is geographically assigned. The themes are interchangeable because they play on the base fears of humanity. They become specific when you apply them to a specific mindset and or region.

I wouldn't be able to write a story that took place exclusively in Victorian England and, excluding all Japanese flavour, call it Japanese horror. Yet as you say, the tropes used are all the same...

Anyway, art has evolved (sometimes not so organically), so I'm not saying the two (three) cannot play in the same room. I'm just saying what I said.

[MichaelTumey]

I feel that the first Alien movie, except for the extreme gory parts, is essentially gothic horror, and Alien is about space (not of the earth) so even that proves that gothic horror as nothing to do with western locations - it's only got to do with the tropes.

Unless you're trying redefine the meaning of gothic horror - I am not.

I'm not saying that Japanese horror and Gothic horror is the same. Indeed long wet hair is a Japanese horror trope, and no kind of hair is a gothic horror trope. There are distinct differences in the two. Yet, the basics of gothic horror - creepy landscapes, creepy and overly ornate architecture, dark wizards/priests/men of ritual, mysterious women, which are all gothic horror tropes (not just horror tropes) exist in Japanese/Chinese fiction and have so for hundreds of years.

I'd even go as far as to say oriental gothic horror precedes European gothic horror by 500 years or more, it's just that oriental horror fiction has only been exposed to the west in the last century, it's only just been translated.

The earliest known collection of Japanese horror stories (with mostly gothic elements) was assembled around the year 1250 AD. That is certainly before Poe, Lord Byron, and the other authors of European/American gothic.

You can visit: hyakumonogatari.com - which is a site of translated Japanese ghost stories and folklore tales, which also mention the source and dates of the original Japanese. While many were written during the Edo Period (1600 - 1860), many are much older than that.

[eldritch]

Blue Bomber, I was wondering where you were getting the Ojibwe influence from now that makes more sense with the dreamcatcher reference. I don't know specifically how they (ojibwe) dressed, my expertise lies in 1800's western tribes but the illustrated depiction in the MC seems like generic plastic "indian" toys and the stereotype misconception that all native Americans wore feathered headresses, pounded drum circles, hunted bison and lived in tipis.

As far as Gothic literature goes I stand by my assertion that Gothic Horror genre was primarily European until Poe. in fact your example William Beckford is an English Novelist. The setting is non European for sure but so would English Gothic Horror like the monkey's paw have a non European element (India) but still be English Gothic literature.

Agernon Blackwood and Edgar Allen Poe come to mind as non European Gothic literature authors and so would modern writer Anne Rice be considered non European Gothic, regardless where her characters were (in France, Egypt, wherever)

[eldritch]

I feel that the first Alien movie, except for the extreme gory parts, is essentially gothic horror, and Alien is about space (not of the earth) so even that proves that gothic horror as nothing to do with western locations - it's only got to do with the tropes.

Unless you're trying redefine the meaning of gothic horror - I am not.

I agree the first Alien movie was able to straddle the line between Gothic Horror and Science Fiction very well (and so did much earlier Gothic Horror concepts such as Frankenstein and Dr. Jekyll)
Gothic Horror is about richness of setting and build up of dread and horror not just slasher film terror and chases (although there is some Gothic Horror influence there as well.)
The problem is that in most of the Oriental style Domains in Ravenloft no Gothic tropes are easily identified or used it seems at all.

Have you ever read the snow ghost Japanese folklore story? It is about a woodcutter who falls asleep with his assistant in a cabin. At night the door opens and a mysterious supernatural snow woman comes in breathes frost over the old woodcutter and then comes to the woodcutter's young assistant who holds his breath and pretends to sleep. She notices and says she will spare him if he promises never to tell about the events because he is young and handsome. He assumes it was all a dream until the Woodcutter is discovered dead and frozen in the morning. A few years later he marries a girl from another village and one night many years into the marriage he notices his wife as she sews by the candle light reminds him of the terrible night in the cabin many long years ago. He tells her about it and she springs up as shrieks, "it was I! and I told you I would spare you only if you never told, I spare you now only because of our children asleep in the other room!" She turned into a snow mist and escaped up the chimney never to be seen again.

Now that is Asian Gothic horror.

[MichaelTumey]

Have you ever read the snow ghost Japanese folklore story? It is about a woodcutter who falls asleep with his assistant in a cabin. At night the door opens and a mysterious supernatural snow woman comes in breathes frost over the old woodcutter and then comes to the woodcutter's young assistant who holds his breath and pretends to sleep. She notices and says she will spare him if he promises never to tell about the events because he is young and handsome. He assumes it was all a dream until the Woodcutter is discovered dead and frozen in the morning. A few years later he marries a girl from another village and one night many years into the marriage he notices his wife as she sews by the candle light reminds him of the terrible night in the cabin many long years ago. He tells her about it and she springs up as shrieks, "it was I! and I told you I would spare you only if you never told, I spare you now only because of our children asleep in the other room!" She turned into a snow mist and escaped up the chimney never to be seen again.

Now that is Asian Gothic horror.

I mentioned Lafcadio Hearn (also known as Koizumi Yagumo, to the Japanese). He is the one who translated "Yuki-onna" which is the tale you speak of, and yes, very, very gothic. Actually the first tale in his Kwaidan: strange discussions book published in 1899 is Mimi Nashi Hoichi (Hoichi the earless), and the elements in that extremely gothic horror tale is the basis for my own Kaidan (Japanese horror) setting.

Hoichi is a blind religious bard who travels alone going from temple to temple to ply his trade of playing/reciting Japanese classical music/tales. He visits a friend at a temple in Shimonoseki, which is the same location of the final battle of the Genpei War in 1285. While there, he is approached by a samurai (who is a ghost, but Hoichi being blind doesn't realize it) to play for his sovereign lord and household (the Taira clan, who were vanquished and committed mass suicide at Shimonoseki), after the recital they ask for him to return on the following night for another recital. When Hoichi's friend reveals to him that he was plying his music at an ancient cemetery, and not a noble household, and that the ghosts will probably end his life after the next recital, the friend offers to cover Hoichi in religious kanji to hide him from the ghosts (as in invisibility to undead). The priest is forced to leave on an errand before he finishes, so has his acolytes finish it for him - but they forget to mark his ears. When the ghost samurai arrives to take Hoichi to the cemetery, the only thing the ghost finds is Hoichi's ears floating in the air... The ghost pulls Hoichi's ears off - hence Hoichi the earless.

The mass suicide act by the Taira clan is what I used as the founding event coupled with an uttered curse in the creation of Kaidan. Antoku the child emperor of Japan in 1281 - 1285 (who was drowned carried by his grandmother from the ship into the sea in the suicide event), is the current emperor of Kaidan (a ghost of a five year old boy). The Shogun of Kaidan is Antoku's grandfather, Taira no Kiyomori. The fact that the entire imperial court and shogunate of Kaidan is undead - these were the people who died on that day, April 25, 1285.

In my Way of the Yakuza supplement for Kaidan, I have a blind bard archetype (moso), which is based on Hoichi, himself. Yuki-onna is the antagonist in my free one-shot module for Kaidan, Frozen Wind.

[Five]

I feel that the first Alien movie, except for the extreme gory parts, is essentially gothic horror, and Alien is about space (not of the earth) so even that proves that gothic horror as nothing to do with western locations - it's only got to do with the tropes.

Unless you're trying redefine the meaning of gothic horror - I am not.

That might prove to you and those that agree with your connecting of those dots, but to myself it proves nothing of the sort, as I don't draw such a connection. To me, one of the tropes in gothic literature, traditional gothic literature, is the setting itself. Which leads me to...

Yet, the basics of gothic horror - creepy landscapes, creepy and overly ornate architecture, dark wizards/priests/men of ritual, mysterious women, which are all gothic horror tropes (not just horror tropes) exist in Japanese/Chinese fiction and have so for hundreds of years.

Creepy and overly ornate gothic architecture. It is/was so integral that it's name led to title of this subgenre of horror.

But I'll agree to disagree...

[MichaelTumey]

Yet, the basics of gothic horror - creepy landscapes, creepy and overly ornate architecture, dark wizards/priests/men of ritual, mysterious women, which are all gothic horror tropes (not just horror tropes) exist in Japanese/Chinese fiction and have so for hundreds of years.

Creepy and overly ornate gothic architecture. It is/was so integral that it's name led to title of this subgenre of horror.

But I'll agree to disagree...

You don't have to believe TV Tropes, but here's a good list of what consists of Gothic Horror, and everything I've mentioned is also listed there. I didn't create this list, obviously some other authority agrees on my points, even if you don't. And since you don't I cannot imagine, what you think gothic horror really is...?! Gothic horror isn't subjective - so having a different opinion doesn't change the fact that these are definite gothic horror tropes.

[Bluebomber4evr]

Blue Bomber, I was wondering where you were getting the Ojibwe influence from now that makes more sense with the dreamcatcher reference. I don't know specifically how they (ojibwe) dressed, my expertise lies in 1800's western tribes but the illustrated depiction in the MC seems like generic plastic "indian" toys and the stereotype misconception that all native Americans wore feathered headresses, pounded drum circles, hunted bison and lived in tipis.

The wikipedia article I linked to has paintings of Ojibwe people, they're not too far off from the drawings of Abber Nomads in the Ravenloft MC Appendix and the Nightmare Lands boxed set.

As far as Gothic literature goes I stand by my assertion that Gothic Horror genre was primarily European until Poe. in fact your example William Beckford is an English Novelist. The setting is non European for sure but so would English Gothic Horror like the monkey's paw have a non European element (India) but still be English Gothic literature.

Agernon Blackwood and Edgar Allen Poe come to mind as non European Gothic literature authors and so would modern writer Anne Rice be considered non European Gothic, regardless where her characters were (in France, Egypt, wherever)

Then you're missing the point and mixing your messages. I've been talking about the setting, not who's doing the writing. All I'm saying is that you can write a completely legitimate gothic horror story set in China, Japan, Mozambique, or Tenochtitlan. It doesn't need to use the stock, overused Eastern European imagery to be Gothic Horror.

[devilfox]

I think the confusion here isn't over the classic horror tropes, but over the word "Gothic".

In literature, Horace Walpole's "The Castle of Otranto" is generally considered the first Gothic romance. The fact that it was subtitled "A Gothic Story" certainly helps in that regard. By his own admission, Walpole was obsessed with medieval Gothic architecture, which was primarily Euro-centric, and the term grew from there (interestingly, Walpole also stated that the "starkness" of Gothic literature was in contrast with the florid overtones of medieval romances - despite Gothic architecture being highly ornate).

So, from it's beginnings, Gothicism was very much centered in Europe and European traditions.

However, the classic horror tropes are generally universal - which became increasingly evident as Eastern horror stories were translated into Western languages. And so the concept of Gothicism expanded to encompass those too ("classic" horror stories from China and Japan are generally termed "Eastern Gothic"), as well as the rest of the world (hence, "American Gothic").

So while Five is certainly correct about the origins of Gothicism, once must remember that terms change - as language is wont to do - and that references to Gothic literature are, these days, by no means Euro-centric.


Anyway, back on topic...

I'm not sure I could least 5 "worthless" domains. Sure, there are domains I don't like (Sebua, Nosos, The Wildlands) but I feel that those are more because they're either under-developed, or duplicate an already existing concept.

So, I tend to change those domains as I go. For instance, I had Sebua absorbed into Har'Akir (I kept Tiyet and Moosha though). I also added Kalidnay to the Amber Wastes (maybe I'm weird because I actually like Kalidnay - though I gave it a more Babylonian feel and dropped the psionics).

The other thing that I noticed is that most people's issues aren't with the domains themselves, but are instead with the darklords. So flesh them out a little, give them some back story. Or, if that doesn't work, change them (for instance, I feel that Moosha would have made a better lord for Sebua than Tiyet - but maybe that's just me).

[MichaelTumey]

So, from it's beginnings, Gothicism was very much centered in Europe and European traditions.

Well, of course, the words "Gothic Horror" is English, thus European as it's origin, but if we forget about the words themselves and look at the concepts of what is gothic horror - my examples prove that it existed even earlier than European gothic works in ancient Japan - it just wasn't called gothic horror by the Japanese, rather "hyakumonogatari Kaidankai", which was played in a ghost story telling game, by samurai in the 14th century. Since none of this was even partially translated until the end 19th century, Europeans and other fans of gothic horror didn't know it even existed. But that doesn't mean it's not gothic horror...

And because of my 2e experience with Ravenloft, and a one-time venture into Rokushima Taiyoo, as well as a less than adoration for the many misconceptions put into Oriental Adventures, Kaidan is a much better solution than fixing Rokushima Taiyoo/I'Cath - it was completely designed from the ground up with incredible detail based on authentic lore as both a setting and a subsystem of rules designed for an oriental setting (a replacement to OA designed specifically for PF).

[Five]

You don't have to believe TV Tropes, but here's a good list of what consists of Gothic Horror, and everything I've mentioned is also listed there. I didn't create this list, obviously some other authority agrees on my points, even if you don't. And since you don't I cannot imagine, what you think gothic horror really is...?! Gothic horror isn't subjective - so having a different opinion doesn't change the fact that these are definite gothic horror tropes.

Steam Punk, Weird West, sexy priests and naughty nuns, opera gloves, all girls want bad boys...have you even read this list? Man, that's a hodge-podge list of cross genre tropes and random elements that were found in modern media. Or, a list of subjective gothic horror tropes.

Speaking of which, gothic horror most certainly is subjective. Just ask old Poe himself. Or Rice. Or (insert gothic sans gothic/non-traditional "gothic horror" author here). I can't possibly argue against what has become of gothic literature but I can argue against the differences between it and traditional gothic, as well as some of the works that are classified as such (much like so-called "self-help" books. Truth is they exist, but they cannot be self-help if coming from an outside source so I discredit them accordingly and on a personal basis). And there's nothing wrong with such changes (I just make it a point to buy used/rare books when I'm looking to be entertained by a traditionally-rooted gothic horror story). Use what works and ignore that which itches your arse. No different than us here with Ravenloft, talking about top five lists and the likes. But calling people out on their understanding of the backbone of a setting in which they find hobby is...unwise.

I'm not offended, as this is one hobby land for me. But I do, obviously, disagree with your words/ opinions as posted. No ill will, I just want to end this with decency. PMs are more than welcome if you'd like to further compare (detailed) notes, but I'm now feeling like a source of distraction from a good intentioned thread. I'll take a response if you got one, but know that I'm moving on. My brain is more occupied with my own top 5 worthless domains list. So yeah. Cheers.

[Le Noir Faineant]

Wow, this is some convoluted affair.

First, *puts on teacher's hat*, "Gothicism" is not a word that denominates a specific concept.
It was arbitrarily used by writers who wanted to denominate that their work belonged to a certain genre.

The word you are looking for when you talk about literature is "The Sublime"[sic],
which essentially defines, uuuh, mediterranean concepts of beauty against Northern European concepts of beauty.

If you don't get what I mean, compare your average English-lord-gets-portrayed-in-front-of-his-flock-of-sheep
with, say, a painting by John Martin, William Blake, or even William Turner.

The important thing is, concepts of HORROR are timeless; concepts of the literary Gothic are not.


Now, for what the long build-up, Rafe. Because, to write a good horror story, there's a fairly simple recipe:

1. The horror is always something that cannot be explained by the laws of your world.
For example, that the dead return from the grave.
That you have nightmares from another life.

2. The worst has already happened when the hero enters the scene.
Like, the devil has already descended into the world.
The crime has already been committed.

3. The story always revolves around the mystery of getting higher insight in what cannot be explained (1), whatever the explanation may be.
Take Poe's King Pest, for example. So, the plague cannot be beaten because a demon causes it. End of the mystery.
Or, Dracula. So, the count's a vampire. End of the mystery.

How you apply that formula is completely up to you; but you can apply it to ANYTHING, and ALWAYS.



See, I have this cup of coffee.
Every time I exit the room, the coffee in the cup becomes less and less.
Oooooooooooooooooooooooh, ghosts? - Nah, just my roommate, trying to scare me.

This, on twenty pages, and you have something to submit to Fangoria, or the Paris Review.

[Le Noir Faineant]

Another scene where this is brilliantly illustrated in a micro-scene, is from the Dreamcatcher movie from 2003.

One of the guys searches for a lost keychain. Observe the woman he gives the keys to. THAT is how horror works.

[Germaine]

First off, my two cents' worth on the "Gothic debate"- however misguided, subjective, or off-topic my opinion may be. To me, the Gothic tale- for want of a better term- has always been about certain concepts more than setting- for example, sin, punishment, and the past being/becoming as important as the present if not more so. Consequently, while I agree that a majority of the earliest Gothics are European, I feel that is really more a function of the authors. Stories like the two Hearn-translated folktales mentioned are very much "Gothic", as was "Lovers' Vow", a modern retelling of the one. Likewise, even though they certainly aren't horror stories by any stretch of the imagination, I find films like "Never Die Alone" and "Deep Cover" to be more Gothic in a sense than some Ravenloft material I've encountered. Now, for the on-topic. I don't really feel there are any truly useless domains in Ravenloft. It's been proven to me time and again that a talented enough writer/ designer/ DM can often take boring/useless/poorly developed characters, settings, and concepts and actually make them worthwhile. That said, my top 5 of canon domains I'm never likely to use in any meaningful would probably consist of : Nosos: Piles of garbage, clever diseases, and a spoiled, hateful sociopath with daddy issues just aren't my idea of a good hook, I'm afraid. Kalidnay:Much like the (far more interesting) setting it came from, I can't for the life of me figure out what to do with it. Odiare: To my mind, one of the least "Gothic" of the domains. Evil Pinnochio? Really? Saragossa: A potentially interesting concept, but not one that I'm especially interested in developing, and the darklord is...less than thrilling to me. Wildlands: I just don't quite know what to make of "Rogue" meets "The Jungle Book", although I do rather like the Hideous Man-Beast. II suppose Davion may belong here as well, but we're only doing 5 and I consider it a dreamscape rather than a real domain anyway. For the record, I do think the curiously named I'Cath is EXTREMELY broken, but being a fan of "CGS" and its ilk, I really believe it can be fixed- even if I may not be the right one to do the fixing.

[Germaine]

Incidentally- sorry about the weird run-on format of my post. I'm posting from a new phone, and can't seem to figure out how to create breaks/paragraphs for some reason.