Does Althea (QtR #21) deserve Darklordship?

[Satyrwyld]

Re: Hive Queen - while the pre-Darklord backstory is pretty solid, half of the modern picture of the domain is about the dopplegangers, not her, while the other half is about her being a glorified egg sac. So, yeah.

With Althea's original appearance, we don't just know she wants to mate, we know she's picky about who she mates with. She picks the "best" of a given group, but "best for what" is never touched on in the original write-up. That could have been tapped for story- magical potential, traces of royal lineage, descended from fiends/dragons/people who came from other planes... Maybe she wants to "marry" into royalty for some reason, or there's a Vistani prophecy that finding a man who loves her will let her leave the island, and she's incapable of pursuing this in a remotely well-reasoned fashion. The "mating compulsion" could have been a means to something more compelling, not an end in itself.

Again, it's not that I'm opposed to the idea of marriage- or baby-oriented Darklords, it's that she's yet another female one with very few counter-examples... and that this time, it's almost all we're given of her character. Contrast with Gabrielle Aderre, who's got her own baggage but at least gets some dimension to her character. It just feels like wasted potential here.

[brilliantlight]

Honestly, AD&D monsters have never been very well put together in terms of reproductive lore. Witness the absurdity of the sphinx family, where only one species is female, the one male species that produces more females hates sex, and the other two species basically have to find and rape females to propagate themselves.

Agreed, another example is the drow. They are a murderous, backstabbing lot with a low birthrate. Orcs can murder each other at a high rate due to their high birth rate but elves? Why isn't the drow species extinct? My version of them is LE and one iron clad rule they have is drow do NOT kill drow outside of execution for treason or murder. In fact they can't even arrange for other beings to kill their drow enemies without being executed for it. If they are killed in battle they are raised from the dead if at all possible. Drow can manipulate each other, lie to each other, scam each other etc. but the one thing they can't do is kill each other.

[brilliantlight]

There are people more evil than some darklords in Ravenloft. Take Baron Metus, the Bogeymens, S, Montarri, Styrix, ... Why aren't these darklords?

The dark powers are often seen as collectors, with peculiar taste. They collect evil specimens. But who knows what else attracts their fancy? What Althea had, that attracted them?

Or the Dukkar for that matter? I gave him his own domain. I just couldn't bear having a Hitler type running around without being punished with his own domain. His domain has nothing but Vistani in it. The Vistani in his domain do not have to move around and have no real desire to leave. He is cursed with having rumors of non-Vistani visiting his domain (Such as the PCs) but not being able to meet any of them. So he is totally dependent on people he loathes for everything!

[brilliantlight]

And what evil Harkon Lucas did to get a domain? He was just a megalomaniac, thinking himself better than everyone. He didn't act IIRC to take over the world.
He was also terribly evil, so he got a domain once he wandered in the mists.

I always thought Harkon needs more development to rate being a Dark Lord. He really didn't do anything evil enough to deserve it IMO. They took him just when he was having evil thoughts, he didn't actually DO anything at the time.

[alhoon]

Well, again according to Dark Power's morals he was an evil man-killing creature that was too big for his shoes. But it wasn't that got him a domain; you don't get a domain by doing something evil in half the cases. Being irredeemably evil is enough. What differs and makes the DP unexplainable is how they pick and choose from the irredeemably evil.

What I mean is, a very evil grocer that wishes to poison his customers for "all he has suffered from them" down to infants, but is afraid to act on it, should be wary of entering fog.

[The Lesser Evil]

Hazlik?
He stroke back against those that killed his lover and humiliated him. If anything, he had more reason to snap to madness.
He was also terribly evil so he got a domain. Mind you, he didn't plot genocide till he got a domain full of the people he despised.

And what evil Harkon Lucas did to get a domain? He was just a megalomaniac, thinking himself better than everyone. He didn't act IIRC to take over the world.
He was also terribly evil, so he got a domain once he wandered in the mists.

What about Azalin? He didn't get a domain when he killed his son. He got it a century later, after spending 40 years with Strahd. His crime was... stepping into the mists.
He was also terribly evil, so he got a domain once he did.

I think a killing spreed/mass murder would be among the "sufficient enough" crimes to warrant darklordship, wouldn't you? "Lukas seethed with rage and embarked on a killing spree throughout the farmlands of Cormyr, venting his wrath on the innocent." (Domains of Dread, p. 64). Say what you want about merely thinking evil thoughts or "being evil" is enough to be a darklord, but don't use Harkon

Similarly, Azalin committed plenty of foul acts (well, in how they are described in Dark Powers Checks Provoking territory, anyway) while in the service of Strahd. Creating the bone and zombies golems, for example. Corruption doesn't have to come from one big, flashy evil act, but can be smaller ones. Similarly, the Mists don't always take you the very instant the act is committed- sometimes they let you walk the lands for the time (especially for a would-be darklord to join the Core).

Regarding naturally evil aligned beings, a pet theory I subscribe to is that for some of these such darklords, having more humanity than most of their kind. Jaqueline Renier is not terribly worse than most wererats (aside from being one of the most skilled in manipulations and poisons- enough to throw Grandad off guard). However, she is described as having the ability for empathy and the desire to love that is unusual, even unnatural, for her kind. This in turn, we surmise, should make Jaqueline act with more humanity. However, it seems like she chooses many times to disregard extending love or grace to those around her, thus making her guilty of a transgression on a level different than most (natural) wererats- she's guilty of failing to use (or even guilty of abusing) a gift that gives her a level of moral awareness the rest of her kind might lack.

Edit: Hazlik didn't just slew his rival's lover. She also made her drink the blood of her lover and then killed her. That reads pretty big on the torture scale (or perhaps gaslighting). Hazlik went out of his way to do an act of spite on a pretty big level. He is also known to have "devoted himself to revenge and magical studies"- which to me implies both action as well as thought- these actions need not be specifically described but rather implied. His devotion to "revenge" could or could not be genocide- taking actions to prepare for mass murder (researching dark/forbidden magics, manipulating/killing people to get them out of the way of your plan, etc.) could suffice to draw one in. As for his time in the Nightmare Lands, I'd like to think that would be the initial part of his curse's setup- to come personally in contact with the beings that would later come to torment him during his time in Hazlan.

[The Lesser Evil]

Trying to think of other female darklords whose curse doesn't include love or children: - the Hive Queen of Timor
- Thakok-An, the Priestess-Queen of Kalidnay (not a good example,
since she is sometimes depicted as male)

For reasons others have mentioned, I'm not sure I'm counting the Hive Queen here. Thakok-An is ambiguous, as her curse is very much tied to her relationship with her master Kalid-Ma. She is described wanting to save him and thus earn his "undying devotion", "maddened by the thought of losing him". Whether her relationship was that of hero/divine worship, mentor/student or employee/boss loyalty, a father/daughter relationship, or a possible romantic affiliation/infatuation (or some combination of all of these) would be possible.

The Lady of Ravens never got an official backstory in canon. In the netbooks, I think her background/curse involved loving a man who did not return her affections.

Elena Faithhold is the one canon female darklord that comes to mind whose existence doesn't involve love/children/relationships/appearance as a primary factor of her existence.

[brilliantlight]

Hazlik?
He stroke back against those that killed his lover and humiliated him. If anything, he had more reason to snap to madness.
He was also terribly evil so he got a domain. Mind you, he didn't plot genocide till he got a domain full of the people he despised.

And what evil Harkon Lucas did to get a domain? He was just a megalomaniac, thinking himself better than everyone. He didn't act IIRC to take over the world.
He was also terribly evil, so he got a domain once he wandered in the mists.

What about Azalin? He didn't get a domain when he killed his son. He got it a century later, after spending 40 years with Strahd. His crime was... stepping into the mists.
He was also terribly evil, so he got a domain once he did.

I think a killing spreed/mass murder would be among the "sufficient enough" crimes to warrant darklordship, wouldn't you? "Lukas seethed with rage and embarked on a killing spree throughout the farmlands of Cormyr, venting his wrath on the innocent." (Domains of Dread, p. 64). Say what you want about merely thinking evil thoughts or "being evil" is enough to be a darklord, but don't use Harkon

Similarly, Azalin committed plenty of foul acts (well, in how they are described in Dark Powers Checks Provoking territory, anyway) while in the service of Strahd. Creating the bone and zombies golems, for example. Corruption doesn't have to come from one big, flashy evil act, but can be smaller ones. Similarly, the Mists don't always take you the very instant the act is committed- sometimes they let you walk the lands for the time (especially for a would-be darklord to join the Core).

Regarding naturally evil aligned beings, a pet theory I subscribe to is that for some of these such darklords, having more humanity than most of their kind. Jaqueline Renier is not terribly worse than most wererats (aside from being one of the most skilled in manipulations and poisons- enough to throw Grandad off guard). However, she is described as having the ability for empathy and the desire to love that is unusual, even unnatural, for her kind. This in turn, we surmise, should make Jaqueline act with more humanity. However, it seems like she chooses many times to disregard extending love or grace to those around her, thus making her guilty of a transgression on a level different than most (natural) wererats- she's guilty of failing to use (or even guilty of abusing) a gift that gives her a level of moral awareness the rest of her kind might lack.

Edit: Hazlik didn't just slew his rival's lover. She also made her drink the blood of her lover and then killed her. That reads pretty big on the torture scale (or perhaps gaslighting). Hazlik went out of his way to do an act of spite on a pretty big level. He is also known to have "devoted himself to revenge and magical studies"- which to me implies both action as well as thought- these actions need not be specifically described but rather implied. His devotion to "revenge" could or could not be genocide- taking actions to prepare for mass murder (researching dark/forbidden magics, manipulating/killing people to get them out of the way of your plan, etc.) could suffice to draw one in. As for his time in the Nightmare Lands, I'd like to think that would be the initial part of his curse's setup- to come personally in contact with the beings that would later come to torment him during his time in Hazlan.

Point taken, Harkon's mass murdering rage does qualify him for it. If you want further justification as it was done in a rage you can always add to his background that he was doing more than thinking about it but was in the process of setting a plan in motion to set up a tyrannical kingdom under his rule and his thoughts were about finalizing it and setting it in motion when he was taken. He was just about to set it all in motion when he was grabbed by the Dark Powers. That makes it all the more frustrating to him, he was on the verge of culminating his plans when he was grabbed and put in charge of complete backwater.


Good point about Jaqueline, I never thought of it like that but it makes sense. Instead of using her empathy she ignores it. Lycanthropes can survive on non-sentient meat so she has no excuse there. She could survive quite easily eating nothing but birds, dogs and any other kind of animal she finds.

Halzik easily qualifies, there is nothing in his background that truly mitigates his evil. Azalin easily qualifies as well. Not only did he become a lich, a willingly evil act in and of itself, but no doubt done a number of evil acts while researching a way out of RL while tutoring Strahd.

[Zilfer]

*Snip*

That makes it all the more frustrating to him, he was on the verge of culminating his plans when he was grabbed and put in charge of complete backwater.

*Snip*

To be fair Cormyr is close to where my original character's hail from Shadowdale..... <.< That's near a very forested place, one of the largest in faerun i think called Cormanthor. Cormyr itself is a few cities surrounded by forest i believe so... *shrugs*

Also hasn't Jacqueline learned about an all fish diet? xD

[brilliantlight]

*Snip*

That makes it all the more frustrating to him, he was on the verge of culminating his plans when he was grabbed and put in charge of complete backwater.

*Snip*

To be fair Cormyr is close to where my original character's hail from Shadowdale..... <.< That's near a very forested place, one of the largest in faerun i think called Cormanthor. Cormyr itself is a few cities surrounded by forest i believe so... *shrugs*

Also hasn't Jacqueline learned about an all fish diet? xD

It has a few cities as you said, his domain has a few small villages.

[The Lesser Evil]

Cormyr is also a majorly cosmopolitan nation and naval power, not to mention a powerful centralized monarchy. Kartakass is entirely decentralized and not really cosmopolitan at all by contrast.

Also noting Lukas' time in Ravenloft, he did go on another kiling spree against the wolves and werewolves of Barovia, enough to get Strahd's attention and drive him out. Mass murder of evil beings is still mass murder, so I'd say that's another notch on his belt.

[Suvie]

For my vote, I think Althea deserves DLship just fine. She murdered her husband, when she could have just left him. People want to talk about Burning Bed scenarios that's all well and good, but this wasn't such a scenario. Did he threaten to kill her if she left? No. Was he physically abusive? No. Did he try to confine her, take away her power to leave? No. He just didn't care for her like she needed. That's sad, but being a heartless SOB is not a capital crime. She could have just left.

And even if you ADD that stuff in, and want to say that she was all Sleeping With the Enemy, well then why did she torture him to death? He was sleeping and helpless, why not just make it a quick slash across the throat and be done?

Of course, as HellBorn says, that might be enough to make her a villain, but not a Darklord. And there's where I have to say the DP's look for that perverse tragedy: she finally got a living child, and she tried to kill him for his race. That irony, in the wake and context of the other murder, kicked her up a notch into Darklordhood. If you want to add the murder of her neices on top of that, that's fine, but don't downplay the awfulness of deliberate murder of her own child, after pining for so long to have one.

Murder of her husband = villain. Attempted murder of her son, after ironically wanting a living child for all those many many years = Darklord.

[Jimsolo]

Oh, man, how did I miss this thread for so long?

Short answer: gods yes, Althea deserves to be a Darklord.

[Jimsolo]

Long answer (I apologize if I'm repeating things from earlier in the thread):

Now, I'm NOT saying Althea is a saint. Because she did kill her husband, and she did try and kill her maedar son. But looking at this... giving her the role of Darklord kind of seems wrong. Hell, looking at it in the right angle, it kind of feels misogynistic.

It does, and it should.

While the Dark Power do, at times, enforce a black-and-white brand of morality that matches conventional moral notions, Ravenloft (and the DPs) also sometimes hold people to moral standards which are archaic, alien to our own, and frighteningly restrictive. Children being punished for the sins of their parents is an extremely common theme in Ravenloft, for example.

Another common theme is the Dark Powers holding people accountable to social responsibilities, or relatavistic cultural morality. This is why Althea gets to be a Dark Lord. From a story perspective (as a DM) it allows us to show a fresh kind of horror story, one where the 'bad guy' is all too relatable. This kind of story really puts the 'Dark' in 'the Dark Powers.'

Furthermore, I think it fits in with the medusa mythology perfectly. Ovid's version of the medusa myth depicts medusa as a priestess of Athena, who suffers a rape at the hands of Poseidon. Rather than take umbrage with her deific peer, Athena lays the blame at Medusa's feet, a charge which Ovid calls "just and well-deserved." By the moralistic standards of the time and culture, Medusa is to blame for her own violation. The fact that this is so alien, so abhorrent to modern sensibilities, makes this kind of story all the more compelling. It makes Medusa (and any D&D medusa you wish to so empower) a unique sort of villain, in that the players feel real, actual sympathy for her. Heck, if you play your cards right they may identify with her enough to let her go, which is certainly a triumph in the 'emotional resonance' department of storytelling!

Althea isn't just a great Dark Lord, I might argue she's one of my favorites.

[alhoon]

As far as cultural norm judging by the Dark Powers goes, I would also add that there are cannibal dwarves in the mountains of Madness that eat their dead as a sign of respect (like the Masagetae supposedly did) so they don't turn to ghouls or monsters. If anything, stealing the corpse so they can't eat it and burying it would provoke a DPCheck.