4e Ravenloft Conversion Thread

[DocBeard]

We used to have crossbows take forever to load, too-all that happened is no one used them unless they were magic or repeaters. Move is okay, I guess, but I think Standard takes away from the whole, 'Keep it simple, and have something cool to do every round.' paradgim of 4E.

As for new enhancements, Isabella pointed out that burst isn't new, and I don't see what's wrong with the bayonets. Could you be more specific?

[Nikolas of the Mists]

Keep in mind that you get a Move Action, Standard Action, & a Minor Action all on your turn. You would still be able to load and fire in a round, just not quite so easily.

Military Ranged Weapon [or Superior depending upon CL]

Pistol +2 Prof d10dmg 10/20 100g Armor Piercing, High Crit, Reload Move/Standard
Musket +2 Prof d12dmg 20/40 200g Armor Piercing, High Crit, Reload Move/Standard

New Weapon Property - Armor Piercing: This weapon receives a +2 bonus to hit targets in heavy armor.

[Lord Cyclohexane]

I realize that the Dragonborn discussion was dropped for the moment, but I wanted to point out the idea that was proposed when a similar problem arose, as written by Jester in the thread PHB2 for Ravenloft - thoughts?

In this case imagine a wyrm cult, a group of humans who worship the great slumbering wyrm that sleeps under the earth. Late nitghts the gather atop the hill that is its resting place and pledge their loyalty to him, selling their souls and bodies for a fraction of its power.
They are no longer quite human but they are something more. Do they enjoy this newfound power or do they wish to regain their lost selves?

And that could be an interesting modification of the rules, to apply the changes granted by the Dragon Disciple PrC but by method of the transposition rules for fiends, making the change from human into half-dragon as a Dark Path.

After all, perhaps the wyrm cult was created when the dragon learned that her eggs couldn't hatch due to the odd effect of the Mists. Why not tempt the foolish mortals, giving them a small taste of power in return for unknowingly sacrificing their mortal shells to the dragon's children? And what of the lone cultist who realizes that her colleague's change of personality is due not to evolving into a new creature, but rather because his soul is now trapped in the egg for all eternity while the hatchling revels in stolen flesh? Isolated from the brother and sister cultists due to her knowledge, isolated from the common people due to the changes already imbued, and constantly tempted and taunted from inside her head as the youngling hatches into her consciousness...

For the Dragonborn, however, I would propose the following changes to the above:

1) Only Metallic (Good) Dragons can create Dragonborn. Each Dragonborn represents the temptation of the flesh overriding the desire for spiritual purity, as the parent dragons' biological drive for children has caused them to destroy others to create empty vessels for their hatchlings' spirits.

2) Dragonborn, then, are the hatchlings who have taken over the ex-cultists' bodies. The Dragonborn will spend its life knowing that its own life was dependent on someone else being trapped for eternity inside the hatchling's egg so that that Dragonborn could be born.

3) As such, the few Dragonborn who take up adventuring are driven strongly by the desire to atone for the sin that is their entire existence. They seek to expiate their parents' sins and thus justify their own existence, that even though they were born via monstrous evil that they are not bound to be monsters.

4) However, because of the crushing weight of guilt due to the conflict of their nature (being children of Good dragons) versus the circumstances of their birth, Dragonborn have a high rate of turning from good acts to becoming some of the most vile villains in the Core, and also a high rate of despair, alcoholism, and suicide. It's hard to live when you know you are the physical embodiment of sin itself.

5) In addition to knowing what their own births cost, every Dragonborn also knows the easy way to rectify it. The cultist's soul is still safely stored in the Dragonborn's egg. If the Dragonborn were only to smash its own egg, the cultist's soul would regain control of the body and the Dragonborn's soul would pass on into the next realm. But, is it fair to have to sacrifice your own life to right a wrong you didn't commit? Especially when the cultist is no innocent but willingly allowed itself to be corrupted?

6) But, flipside of #5 is that if the Dragonborn has lived a sufficiently good life, has done enough to correct the sins of its parents, both dragon and demihuman, then the Dragonborn will actually retain control of its body and the cultist's soul (having been freed by the good deeds of the Dragonborn) will actually be the one to pass on into eternity. This will also be represented by keeping the player from gaining access to the higher-level Dragonborn feats until the Dragonborn has undergone this mission to improve its life.

I feel that this overall concept is pretty close to the mark for the setting, as it makes use of the Gothic tradition of the sins of the fathers passing down to the sons, of ancient sins that continue to have ramifications into the present, of the effect of evil in our lives and the desire to fight it and purge it.

Thoughts?

[Isabella]

Well, you run into the obvious issue of where you're going to find the good dragons in Ravenloft, but once you're past that hurdle I think it's good. It's kind of what I was going with the story with Ebb - the issue there being I doubt Ebb would ever willingly sacrifice her eggs, so I made it a little different. I think it would be great for originating in Sithicus, given that domain's strong ties to Dragonlance, and given the similarity of your modifications to the Draconians of that setting. Other good domains would be Darkon (because everything is in Darkon), Hazlan, and Falkovnia (Dragons are common in Germanic myth, after all, and the Spawn of the Lizard sets a good precedent for these guys being there).

Personally, I feel there's so many possibilities for how these things came about that I would consider "typical" Dragonborn behavior based on what domain they live in, not as a racial background shared by all (I'd leave that kind of thing for Dwarves). They may even envy each other their different origins - is it better to be the twisted freak, once human were it not for a magical experiment, or a creature literally born of a foul bargain?

Here's a question: do Dragonborn born of this process breed true? Are they a race in their own right, or are they a dead end that can only exist as freakish abominations of nature?

So far I'm compiling a list in my head of all the realms you might find a dragonborn in, with their varying origins:
Sithicus (Draconians, as you wrote above)
Falkovnia (Spawn of the Lizard - much the same as above, but also possibly originating as warped kobolds or humans who ate dragonflesh)
Richemulot (Monsters in the Sewers, born of all the filth and disease the rats spread)
Nidalia (Servants of "Banemaw", politely created by the Dark Powers to annoy Elena Faithold)
Hazlan (Magical Experiments)
Darkon (ditto)
Shri Raji (Naga Blooded Men, Serpant Cultists)
Dementlieu (Likely imported - latest Curiosity at a noble's villa or the University)
Souragne (Lizard men in the swamp, either natural or spent a little too much time worshiping Ohuwaghun)
Paridon (Likely imported - Circus sideshow freak, resident of Freak Street)

Humorous thought we had while discussing the dragonborn: going back to Dragonlance, the elves would probably pick off the dragonborn there, mistaking them for draconians. The only ones they wouldn't shoot on sight would be the ones they mistake for Auraks, the gold draconians. The reason? Auraks explode when killed, killing their enemies with their death throes. So all dragonborn that originate in Sithicus have gold colored scales, due to selective breeding.

[cure]

"Nidalia (Servants of "Banemaw", politely created by the Dark Powers to annoy Elena Faithold)"

I once proposed writing up Banemaw as a mist horror so as to give the creature a fragment of reality. Mangrum argued against doing so in these terms: "Well, the thing is, the 'dragon' of Nidala doesn't exist. Elena invented it to cover up her own massacres. I'm against introducing a 'reaL' dragon because it detracts from this aspect of Nidala's character. "

For my part I am against new rules trumping existing story save for in the compelling case where the existing story can be improved thereby. Sure Dragonborns can be shoehorned into Ravenloft. I even attempted to do so with a kobold born dragonborn in the person of the Basilisk.

The response at the time of the community was that that was over the top and it was far more in keeping with the setting to have the Basilisk be an invention of Falkovnian propaganda used to explain away losses suffered at the hands of mere kobolds.

Now there is ONE dragonborn on record. Mangrum himself created the creature as a Sithician elf trying to raise, as it were, the ghosts of that people's past who once worshipped dragon gods. Although I never particularly liked the creation itself, it was at least fitting rather than shoehorned.

[Lord Cyclohexane]

Well, you run into the obvious issue of where you're going to find the good dragons in Ravenloft, but once you're past that hurdle I think it's good.

Well, I don't think that dragons work with Ravenloft very well at all, so increasing the rarity only makes things better, in my opinion. And note, too, that the dragons I'm talking about aren't good, they're just supposed to be.

It's kind of what I was going with the story with Ebb - the issue there being I doubt Ebb would ever willingly sacrifice her eggs, so I made it a little different. I think it would be great for originating in Sithicus, given that domain's strong ties to Dragonlance, and given the similarity of your modifications to the Draconians of that setting.

Ah, but would Ebb do this if she knew her eggs weren't going to hatch otherwise? That's the situation I'm proposing, of dragon eggs that won't hatch into dragons, of hatchlings that will never be born, of a mother denied as her childer lie stillborn. Do you think Ebb might take drastic steps as her maternal instinct draws her to her doom?

Note that, unlike with draconians, these eggs won't hatch into draconians any more than they'll hatch into dragons. The hatchlings are stuck, forever, in their eggs. But, with vile necromancy, the hatchlings' minds might be placed into other bodies...

So, this is not like draconians at all, where perfectly viable dragon eggs are instead corrupted to hatch into something else altogether. Here, humans and demihumans are corrupted to make draconian-like bodies, at which point their minds are erased so that they can be filled with the hatchlings' spirits.

This is not about destroying the young of a rival dragon, this is about ensuring the life of your child and what parts of your soul you're willing to give up to achieve it.

[DocBeard]

Why not have "All of the above"? I mean, no one can completly agree on the origin of humanity today, let alone in a magical world of horror, mists, and Dracula people running around all willy nilly. Maybe one Dragonborn family claims a tie to Ebb that grants them noble heritage over the lesser 'snake men' breeds, while the Hazlani Dragonborn believe the opposite as they're free of any meddling ancestors.

The whole question of "Where the hell did they come from?" is an interesting one, so why not just present a bunch of possibilities and let the PCs fight it out?

[Nikolas of the Mists]

I will not be using Dragonborn in Ravenloft, but if I were here would be some ideas off the top of my head.

Option a) No native Dragonborn. Since almost every game I have run (and intend to run) has Ravenloft natives as PCs this pretty much removes the option from my playerbase.

Option b) A group of dragon worshippers once had the brave and foolish idea to steal eggs from the Ebb's clutch to further understand their God(requires use of the optional Twin Shadows Dread Possibility). A mere two dozen cultists from the original hundred survived to escape into the Shadow Rift bringing with them a single egg. Faced with starvation, and lost in the Rift themselves dissent broke out when the rations and foodstuffs were gone. Taking on the visage of a dragon, Gwydion reached out and touched some of the cultist's minds offering to make them monstrosities akin to their Dragon god. Slaughtering those few cultists unwilling to harm the dragon egg, the victors greedily gorged themselves upon the yolk of the dragon egg, and were cursed (or they believe blessed) and transformed into the Dragonborn serving the whims of the Dark Lord of the Rift.

Option c) Azalin's curiosity got the better of him and he made off with an egg to experiment upon back in his laboratories.

No option I gave really makes the Dragonborn a viable player character race though without some more work.

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

The trouble with that approach is that if all of these possibilities are true, you risk the implication that dragonborn are downright common in Ravenloft, which I think we all agree shouldn't be the case. I'm definitely of the opinion that if the player wants to play it, find a reason for it and let them play it. (though warn them of the consequences they'll face).

But there's a tendency for people (myself included) to treat "dread possibilities" as facts, and if there are all these possible dragonborn out there, why aren't they common and accepted? It's a fine line to tread.

I like that there are only a few places in RL with native elves, for example. If you put a secret little enclave of elves in every domain, suddenly they're not so unusual.

[Jester of the FoS]

Minor action to reload seems a bit trifling. Myself (and a couple others I know) were thinking of making reload be either a Move or Standard action, instead of a Minor.

Of course this would mean that we would have to increase the potential of the weapon, but that is achieved in many ways. I would like to try and steer clear of creating entirely new weapon properties if at all possible.

A crossbow loads in a minor action, I feel a gun would be slightly longer.
I think that a really good Utility ability for a firearms specialist Paragon Path would be to reduce loading to a minor action.

As DocBeard said, standard reload does not work because then you're not doing something that round. We *could* double the damage and have it usable once every two rounds to equal out, but then people would just fire the gun one round and switch to a bow later. Or carry two guns. Or hire someone to carry a bunch of loaded guns for them and reload during rounds.

One of the things 4e tried to do was cut the number of different things each action does. Standards are for attacking and using powers and casting spells. Oh, and Second wind.
Move actions are for moving or shifting or standing up.
Minor actions are everything else.
So the problem with having move reload is that it breaks with the design of 4e.

(Stuff like this would be easier to reference if they'd get the freakin' SRD up)

Solution: two minor reload. It takes *two* minor actions to reload a gun. It can still be done in a single turn and an attack, but you can't move.

[Nikolas of the Mists]

There's a tendency for people (myself included) to treat "dread possibilities" as facts.

Yeah, I think that's one issue that Ravenloft faces. Many people think that every dread possibility is [or should be] cannon, when the dread possibilities were meant to be decided upon by each GM for his individual game. There are many dread possibilities I like. There are some dread possibilities I don't like. Many of the options that have come up revolve around the eggs from a Dread Possibility (my own included, though the resulting race would be exceedingly rare and almost exclusively NPCs) that some GMs might not be using or like much at all.

And yeah, a player character Dragonborn whether Outlander or native should face a ridiculously high OR. They make Caliban look downright human in comparison in my eyes.

[Nikolas of the Mists]

Solution: two minor reload. It takes *two* minor actions to reload a gun. It can still be done in a single turn and an attack, but you can't move.

Yeah thanks Jester, this is precisely what I was wanting to do with it I just didn't have it worded correctly to represent the substitution of actions (p268 PHB).

[Nikolas of the Mists]

Fear, Horror and Madness Saves

Issue: Since saving throws are your defenses now, the general "saving throw" difficulties have decreased. Great Fortitude, Iron Will and Lightning Reflexes all got moved up to Paragon tier feats to reflect this.

The +4 bonuses that would be granted by Courage, Jaded, and Open Mind in 4e need to be changed because not only are defense values for "saves" are reduced compared to before, but you receive feats much more often in 4e (every other level).

Possible Solution: Rather than move these feats up to the Paragon level, simply reduce the bonus to defense against Fear, Horror and Madness to +2 for each of their respective feats.

Halflings

Issue: Halfing's racial ability of +5 to save vs Fear is ridiculous in the Ravenloft setting.

Possible Solution: All halflings receive the aforementioned revised Courage feat granting +2 to their defense vs fear.

[Jester of the FoS]

Okay, miscellaneous Conversion stuff & thoughts.
Mostly what I’m doing with the semi-official Fraternity conversion pamphlet
We’re mostly working on other projects and slowly poking away at it, in my case because the SRD/GSL, the manual and reference guide to what can and cannot be mentioned, hopefully along with base rules and how-to information.

Races
* Dragonborn – not mentioned… make your own decision. Personally, I’d only use them on a PC by PC basis. They’re not a race, they’re unique individuals.
(I’d take a very similar approach to warforged which work much nicer in Ravenloft)

* Tieflings – similar to caliban, children corrupted in the womb, typically sired by those tainted or conceived in places of darkness. Likely more varied and able to pass for human (smaller horns)

* Eladrin – Sithicans. This is a match made in heaven and fixes some of the problems I had with Darkonian high elves vs Sithican grey elves. Most common people call them “Fey” and they call themselves “Sithicans” so eladrin would be the game term.

Monsters
*Vampires – easy enough to do an anti-sun variant. The problem being balance, I can understand why they did it. The sun insta-kill always made vampire encounters tricky as clerics with sunbeam could finish them off.
I might simply add variant vampires (or variant rules) that take 10 radiant damage per round from natural sunlight after a minute of exposure (aka 10 rounds).
I’d also throw in some staking rules, possibly treating the stake as a grappling opponent with a gross bonus.

*Werewolves – lycanthropy and cursed lycanthrope can be a separate curse unrelated to actual lychans. That way the werewolf you fight need only be ‘contagious’ IF you want that to be a risk.

*Doppelgangers – Mind-reading is troublesome. How come they can’t anticipate your counteractions or predict your moves in combat?
Dread Doppelgangers are just a hold-over from 2e when base dopps had a small % chance to mimic and ‘Loft wanted more accurate copycats.
I might throw in a “memory scan” power that lets a Dread Dopp use an At-will power from a copied PC or monster or NPC and use it as an Encounter power.

* Reality wrinkles – I’d give every fiend a “Reality Aura” for the centre of the wrinkle, which itself would be like 2000’ or 400 squares/ level. The aura might be a single square or so and be atmospheric.
And the term “immortal humanoid” has replaced “outsider” so I’d just use that, limiting it to those not native to the Mists.

Madness and Curses
Here’s the teaser:
I’m currently playing with the idea that curses and madness both use the same mechanics as disease.

Madness would be the most similar, (it is mental illness) but requires Insight checks to improve, maintain or worsen instead of Endurance.

Curses would be inflicted and either require Endurance checks to maintain (or worsen) but a behaviour needs to be followed or action done (aka the Escape Clause) for the condition to improve.

NPCs

So how're we going to do NPC's? Are we going to write them up as full PC's, or are we going to use the simplified NPC rules from the DMG page 187? I'm writing up Eia Pax using those rules right now. Looking good so far, but a full-fledged PC writeup would look even better. Think I'll do both.

Darklords, monsters and adversaries only need the monster write-ups.
Allies that PCs will help and aid but should never run (Alanik Ray, van Richten) can just get NPC write-ups (which avoids the question, what class is van Richten. He’s very warlord/leader-ish but wouldn’t get into melee like a warlord. But rogue doesn’t seem right either as he’s an old man).
Classic NPCs that are built with a class in mind (George Weathermay, the Twins, Tara Kolyana, Gondegal) could probably get PC write-ups.

[Jester of the FoS]

Halflings

Issue: Halfing's racial ability of +5 to save vs Fear is ridiculous in the Ravenloft setting.

Possible Solution: All halflings receive the aforementioned revised Courage feat granting +2 to their defense vs fear.

Not really.
For single-round effects (which most fear powers are) the bonus to saves is useless.
The save just means it's really easy for them to shake off lasting fear, which is fine. Halflings are very kender-ish so the resistance to fear works.