My updated take on [Insert Domain Name Here]

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My updated take on [Insert Domain Name Here]

Post by Cromstar »

So as part of a larger project of collating all the various dark lords and domains I've taken a liking to from canon and non-canon sources, I'm touching up or editing some of the details (especially on some of the canon ones with little or no details) to bring them more in-line with the general aspects of the dark lord dynamics.

Bluetspur I'd started on some time ago (in fact I posted most of the details in a thread some 4 years or so ago), but I figured I'd come back to it and touch it up after a couple years and a fresh look. I liked the details I'd worked out for the domain itself, but I'd never fully gotten into updating the darklord proper. So that's what I'm here for.

For some background, I'll have two spoilers below. The first details my general philosophy on how to handle darklords and their curses. The second is some background details on illithids to explain why I did this the way I did.
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While Ravenloft as a whole is meant to have a Gothic horror feel (and most of it does so reasonably well), there is certainly room for other types of horror and a domain and its dark lord shouldn't be penalized or praised for the strength or weakness of the horror feeling to the whole domain. That said, there are some traits that, in my opinion, should try to apply to a dark lord for the best effects.

First and foremost are the crimes. The crimes committed by a dark lord that get them pulled into Ravenloft must meet two standards*: A) they must be objectively evil; and B) they must be subjectively wrong or immoral. What exactly do I mean by this? The first is rather easy: it should be clear to almost any outside observer when looking at the crime(s) in question that they are wrong and evil and in a most heinous way. The crime must be of such a level of heinous action that few would even attempt to defend the action as anything but evil. This is generally the easier bar to meet. B) is harder to understand and thus accomplish properly. When I say subjectively wrong, I mean that the individual committing the crimes (ie, the potential dark lord) must know and be fully aware that, by their own standards, what they are about to do is wrong. The individual must be fully aware that their actions are wrong, but willingly choose to do them anyway. This standard is especially important for monster races (and non-humans in general), as the crime (at least the inciting one that draws them into the Mists) must also violate their own racial morals and values. I'll try and demonstrate this with Bluetspur to better explain.

*These standards don't apply to evil beings already within Ravenloft (either natively or having come into it through other means). These evil beings are at risk of becoming dark lords of their own domains if they ever enter the mists, regardless of the exact nature and levels of their crimes. This is why Azalin's crimes don't seem to rise nearly to the level of those of many other dark lords: Azalin was not drawn in directly as a dark lord.

Related to the above, this brings us to the most important aspect of the dark lord themselves: agency. The dark lord must be directly responsible for his/her/its/their crime(s). It must be their own actions or inaction that bring about their downfall. Thus, being outside of one's own control does not make for a good dark lord (the canon version of Tristan/Malkin is a perfect example of this kind of failure and one I've been touching up as part of this project). Relatedly, the mere act of *existing* is not a crime worthy of becoming a dark lord. Tied to this is the tragic villain. The strongest dark lords are, in the true Gothic style, tragic villains: though we ultimately disagree with the choices they have made, there's a part of their story where we can empathize with them. We can understand Strahd's desire to love and be loved, even though we ourselves would likely never stoop to fratricide and a host of other crimes to obtain it.

But there's another side to the coin of agency: not only must the dark lord have a free hand in their own damnation, but they have to have a free hand in their own salvation...but due to their nature, they have rejected it. It is not enough to be eternally damned; part of the philosophy behind the curses, to me, is that the dark powers dangle not only the dark lord's own greatest desire in front of them, but they also dangle the path to salvation. The dark lords, however, refuse the obtainable salvation in favor of chasing the unattainable Macguffin of choice.

And thus comes the final important aspect of the dark lord: the curse itself. I see whatever new abilities and powers obtained by the dark lord as being irrelevant to the character arc of the dark lord itself: its all about the curse. The point of the curse is to deny the dark lord the one thing that they truly desire and want (but don't need) above everything else. This, of course, is always unique, but I think it bears keeping in mind that this curse is a curse to the dark lord and may not seem so to anyone else (including us as DMs). Most people probably wouldn't consider most variations of Drakov's curse to be that bad, but the point is that it is literally the worst possible thing to Drakov himself.
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So some background on illithids so that you can understand where I'm coming from with this touch-up of Bluetspur. It goes to 2nd Edition AD&D, the version I grew up with and still prefer. When initially introduced, 2nd Edition did not include psionics, so when detailing monsters that had previously had psionic abilities, 2nd Edition reskinned them to have spells or magical abilities that sort of mimicked their formerly psionic powers, and this included illithids. Later, after psionics were reintroduced for 2nd Edition, they would release monster entries for many of the psionic monsters that included the psionics. That left us (me and my father, who was into D&D before I was born and got me into it) with two different versions of the illithid: the psionic version and the magical version. Later, the Illithiad would actually reconcile this, but before that book was published or owned in my household, we had come up with our own reasoning.

Seeing as the illithids had two known deities, Ilsensine (who was a god of psionics) and Maanzacorian (who was a god of magic), we decided that there were two separate races of illithids: the psionic and the magical. Though each recognized both deities, they primarily worshiped the one closer associated with themselves...and both races viewed the other race as a degenerate race to be eliminated to prove their own innate superiority. This forms an important basis of this version of Bluetspur.

As a final note, elder brains are only found among psionic illithids; the magical illithids do not have elder brains.
Bluetspur, located at the southern end of the Core and the Balinok mountains (which cover the entire domain and stretch southward into the mists beyond and into the Nocturnal Sea along the eastern coast) could charitably be called empty. The surface of the domain is covered in barren, windswept mountain ranges and peaks, with deep, narrow valleys carved in between them. Most of the surface life is found in these ravines and canyons, though with the exception of the occasional hardy pine forest, little more than lichens, scrub grasses, and the most stubborn of bushes grow in the infertile soil. Still, enough life grows here to support a decent population of animals, and makes it a tempting location for hunting by some of those who live along the borders of this domain.

However, all who live near this section of the Balinoks knows the dangers of wandering its peaks and valleys. Those foolish enough to sleep within Bluetspur experience dark, horrifying dreams that provide little good rest and leave even the strongest and bravest shaken the following morning. But even the dreams are not the worst part of this domain, for it is said an unspeakable horror lurks within, something that no man should ever lay eyes upon, and that to do so twists the mind and body in terrible ways.

And in some ways, there is truth behind these tales and histories, for deep beneath the mountains lies the true heart of Bluetspur: the illithid city, the true Bluetspur (to surface dwellers, this stretch of land has many names, though some who have spent the night here do speak its true name, remnants of a dream).

The dark lord of Bluetspur is the leader of this illithid city: the Elder God-Brain.

Eons ago on a world now since long forgotten even by time itself, an illithid elder brain ruled a colony of illithids. While dealing with its duties, this elder brain still found plenty of time for devoting itself to pure thought and scheming. This was not in and of itself unusual (plotting is first, second, and third-nature to illithids after all), but this particular elder brain found itself pursuing a line of thought unique among its kind: it actually considered the possibility that the current illithid form was not, in fact, perfection. After all, it found itself reasoning, if psionic illithids were true perfection, then why had they not fully exterminated their magical cousins? And if they were not, thusly, truly perfect, would it be possible to achieve that true perfection?

Having found itself captivated by these new thoughts, the elder brain devoted centuries to considering their implications and then, eventually, ideas and plans on how to act on them.

Finally, the elder brain had decided on a course of action and set about its master plan. It ordered the illithids of its city to begin capturing creatures, not just as slaves and food, but for new experiments. The elder brain wished to test its theories out on lesser specimens before it graduated to experimenting on illithids themselves. The details of these experiments have been lost, and that is likely for the better. The luckiest 'patients' failed to survive them, with the unluckiest few surviving to become eldritch abominations, mindless and hungry and set loose by the elder brain, who no longer had need of them.

Soon, the elder brain surprised its minions with a new request: capture and bring to it magical illithids that it might experiment on them. And so began the elder brain's descent into true evil, for in its experiments it learned more about the secrets of magic, and the power of spells like polymorph, which seemed to transcend even its own psionic crafts(ftnt1). Thus it turned to its own population of illthids and began to subject them to experiments as well, seeking to find ways to merge the power of magic and psionics into a single being. Alas, it was never able to achieve this, but still its dark knowledge grew, and, finally, unable to resist the ultimate temptation, it committed itself to the series of actions that would curse it forever and draw Bluetspur into Ravenloft: the elder brain began ordering its minions to add other brains to its mass, starting with those of magical illithids, but soon even those of other races: drow, duergar, kua-toa, even captives of surface races such as humans.

No longer a mere, normal elder brain, it rechristened itself as the Elder God-Brain in its delusional exultation, not even realizing as the Dark Powers pulled its tunnels out of its home world and brought the entire colony to a new home. (ftnt2)

This leads into the current setting of Bluetspur: beneath the surface, the Elder God-Brain continues its experiments upon its own kin, shaping and changing portions of its population on its whims. Thus, the basic story of the Thoughts of Darkness adventure fit fully into the feel of this domain: creating vampire illithids is almost certainly something the Elder God-Brain would sanction and support. I also see other types of illithid abominations existing: alhoons, ullithids , and the illithid-ropers from the Illithiad, for starters. But I see others as well: in the waters off the coast of Bluetspur can be found small roaming gangs of illithids that have been mutated to live in the dark depths of the ocean.

And on the surface, sometimes experiments escape (most experiments that survive are just turned loose into the tunnels, as the brain has little use for them after their creation; it is after the knowledge after all), and roam the land, always as horrifying, mindless monsters.

The entire domain is meant to have a true Lovecraftian horror feel. I see it has having the feeling as the Mountains of Madness, where everything just feels wrong and off, and then any encounter pushes the envelope of grotesque body-horror (my first immediate thought is use tadpoles on various creatures to create facsimiles of the head-crab zombies from Half-Life).

As the dark lord, however, the brain is not truly happy. Its curse has a few facets. First, its grandest and most exciting experiments are doomed to fail. The true evolution, the next step of illithid evolution eludes it. Its greatest experiments on illithids end with unthinking monsters, uncapable of the kind of advanced mental capacity needed to be true illithids. Secondly, as its psionic powers have grown, they have begun to show downsides. Now, the elder brain is in constant psionic contact with any living, thinking being within its entire domain (this is the source of the dreams, which are actually semi-lucid thoughts and memories from the elder brain). However, as the number of such beings grow, it becomes harder for the elder brain to concentrate, its own thoughts increasingly drowned out by the thoughts of other minds.

Finally, and perhaps most vexxing for the elder brain, by incorporating non-illithid minds into itself, it has...changed. These brains did not become absorbed into it in the same manner as illithid brains would, and now at times the elder brain has vivid memories of things it never experienced, desires and wishes that are not its own, and they've begun to cloud its own identity. The brain is losing the ability to sort between its own mind and the minds it has absorbed. It occasionally loses itself in thought, reminiscing about a life it used to live in a small mountain shack with its wife and children, or dreaming of its desire to grow up and become a proud soldier defending its country against barbarians. In its times of pure lucidness, the elder brain realizes that the more minds it takes in the greater these delusions grow and the more it loses control over its true self. Even worse, it realizes that because its just a giant brain forever stuck in a brine pool, it can never truly experience these new dreams and memories in the way it finds itself craving to. However, the elder brain has chosen to interpret these downsides as the beginning stages of its ascent to true godhood, and so continues seek out new minds to be added to itself.

Footnote 1: I've already created an entirely new psionic discipline (bio-manipulative) for an ancient empire on my own world, and it works perfectly here as well.
Footnote 2: By experimenting on its own kind and, eventually, itself, the elder brain pushed its acts of evil too far for even most illithids. For a race with a strong, innate sense of superiority, to even consider mixing yourself with lesser beings is morally repugnant. To actually do so, and to do so as an elder brain, is committing an unforgivable sin, turning yourself into a lesser abomination.
Last edited by Cromstar on Tue Jan 28, 2020 1:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: My updated take on Bluetspur

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Interesting, but I find the Kargatene version more of my taste.
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Re: My updated take on Bluetspur

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Have you considered adding the illithidae from Dragon Magazine # 150?

If Bluetspur has a vast underworld, one far larger than the surface portion of the domain, it could have adequate habitat for various monsters besides the mind flayers.
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Re: My updated take on Bluetspur

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Mistmaster wrote:Interesting, but I find the Kargatene version more of my taste.
If that's the version I'm thinking of, I originally liked the idea when I'd read it but over time I soured on it a bit. I just felt it was...too human?...for something that felt more eldritch horror to me. YMMV of course.
ewancummins wrote:Have you considered adding the illithidae from Dragon Magazine # 150?

If Bluetspur has a vast underworld, one far larger than the surface portion of the domain, it could have adequate habitat for various monsters besides the mind flayers.
I had never run across the illithidae before but my quick glance at them says they'd be perfect, yes.

My idea definitely has vast caverns running all over the areas beneath the land, so there is definitely room for plenty of monsters. I imagine there will also be pockets of numerous underdark races, which the illithids raid for food and experiments from time to time.
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Re: My updated take on Bluetspur

Post by Buzzclaw »

I like it.
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Re: My updated take on Bluetspur

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Cromstar wrote:
Mistmaster wrote:Interesting, but I find the Kargatene version more of my taste.
If that's the version I'm thinking of, I originally liked the idea when I'd read it but over time I soured on it a bit. I just felt it was...too human?...for something that felt more eldritch horror to me. YMMV of course.
Yes, I too found the previous version far too human. And I posed the same question as you without finding as satisfactory an answer. So well done. This is definitely promising ....
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Re: My updated take on Bluetspur

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Personally, I find the human element more of my taste; in my canon eldrich horror is simply cosmethic. Beside, I do not see your Elder Brain truly deserving of Darklordship while the one of the Book of Sacrifice was; an Elder Brain is an abomination who exploits the false belief of a whole race, which are basically evil because of it; I don't see what your Elder Brain does eviler then the average. While I do use monstrous races as darklords, I usually estabilish them as free-willed and not naturally evil. I think Evil is not born it is made;
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Re: My updated take on Bluetspur

Post by Mischief »

I really like this write-up. Even with the Kargatane revisions which I thought were kind of lackluster, I had pretty much decided Bluetspur was one for the bin because it simply couldn't live alongside the other domains. It had no... "charm", I guess. You fixed that.

You don't fall into the classic Ravenloft pattern: "it was a human, now it's a monster." You start with the monster, confront it with choices, and let it dig it's own grave with its arrogance. And, because I think because you have put in a lot of thought into what it means to be an illithid, you have a very illithid end result.

You have created a really weird problem. If the heroes were evil illithids, the solution is obvious: kill the god-brain or resect the heresy so all the poisonous humanoid ideas are gone. But, in this scenario, humanoid heroes in Ravenloft are the monsters. What would you even begin to do? It's a thornier problem than a normal elder brain which can't be reasoned with, so the heroes kill it to make the bad stuff stop. This ... thing... can be reasoned with after a fashion. And worse, it might be convincing.

Regardless, your god-brain seems like a drug addict in the pre-recognition stage, where it conceives of the idea of quitting but comes up with all the excuses not to. And the drug-seeking behavior, as long as it refuses to see there is a problem, is going to get worse.

Bluetspur is even more eldritch because it is run by something that at least appreciates the existence of humanoid aesthetic and is willing to try various sides of it but with no sense of boundaries, social norms, or morals, all for the sake of its research and to further its own philosophical understanding. Your god-brain certainly understands the idea of creating and appreciates some of the things it has created, but what about creating something for things that are not it to ... appreciate? So it sends things out to other domains, to learn, to teach, to enlighten. "Art", tools, writings, dreams, creatures, creatures it has changed into what it considers "art"... Unlike the Color Out of Space, the Color Out of Bluetspur isn't content with a rest-stop in the local farmer's well. It wants to go touring. And meet you.

Edit: If it understands human faith and thinks of itself as a god, it probably wants to try out clerics and paladins - if only because they are effective defenders and radiant damage is neat. I'm trying to imagine a buff, strength-based illithid in heavy armor with heavy weapons. With smites (int-based smites)? And what if it sets up churches in other domains?

When I read this thread, I was just thinking about what seemed wrong to me about Shadowborn Manor and Ebonbane. What's so special about a random fiend that his brand of evil got him tossed into Ravenloft? Why is it even a Ravenloft adventure and not a Forgotten Realms quest? That's why I redid Azalin to emphasize the choices he made long before he became a lich and entered Ravenloft. Ultimately, I like that you appreciate Ravenloft is not a plane of evil and creepy gothic stuff. It's a plane of people who make terrible choices and then continue to make them when confronted with cluebats and opportunities for redemption - and creepy gothic stuff.

So I went looking for Mind Flayer Paladins
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Re: My updated take on [Insert Domain Name Here]

Post by Cromstar »

So originally this was going to be a one-off thread, but I've had some more thoughts on other domains and realized there's no need for me to make a bunch of single-page threads scattered across the forum, especially when a single thread would help me keep the information centralized anyway. So I changed up the title in order to use this thread for more than 1 domain.

To finish off a few responses about Bluetspur:
Mistmaster wrote:Personally, I find the human element more of my taste; in my canon eldrich horror is simply cosmethic. Beside, I do not see your Elder Brain truly deserving of Darklordship while the one of the Book of Sacrifice was; an Elder Brain is an abomination who exploits the false belief of a whole race, which are basically evil because of it; I don't see what your Elder Brain does eviler then the average. While I do use monstrous races as darklords, I usually estabilish them as free-willed and not naturally evil. I think Evil is not born it is made;
That's a perfectly fine way to view things if you want. As I stated in my OP, my point is that the actions of the elder brain are not just evil (there's no argument the creature is evil), but would also be viewed as evil, grotesque, and horrifying by others of its own kind, which is one of two thresholds for Darklordship. But to each their own.
Mischief wrote:I really like this write-up. Even with the Kargatane revisions which I thought were kind of lackluster, I had pretty much decided Bluetspur was one for the bin because it simply couldn't live alongside the other domains. It had no... "charm", I guess. You fixed that.

You don't fall into the classic Ravenloft pattern: "it was a human, now it's a monster." You start with the monster, confront it with choices, and let it dig it's own grave with its arrogance. And, because I think because you have put in a lot of thought into what it means to be an illithid, you have a very illithid end result.

You have created a really weird problem. If the heroes were evil illithids, the solution is obvious: kill the god-brain or resect the heresy so all the poisonous humanoid ideas are gone. But, in this scenario, humanoid heroes in Ravenloft are the monsters. What would you even begin to do? It's a thornier problem than a normal elder brain which can't be reasoned with, so the heroes kill it to make the bad stuff stop. This ... thing... can be reasoned with after a fashion. And worse, it might be convincing.

Regardless, your god-brain seems like a drug addict in the pre-recognition stage, where it conceives of the idea of quitting but comes up with all the excuses not to. And the drug-seeking behavior, as long as it refuses to see there is a problem, is going to get worse.

Bluetspur is even more eldritch because it is run by something that at least appreciates the existence of humanoid aesthetic and is willing to try various sides of it but with no sense of boundaries, social norms, or morals, all for the sake of its research and to further its own philosophical understanding. Your god-brain certainly understands the idea of creating and appreciates some of the things it has created, but what about creating something for things that are not it to ... appreciate? So it sends things out to other domains, to learn, to teach, to enlighten. "Art", tools, writings, dreams, creatures, creatures it has changed into what it considers "art"... Unlike the Color Out of Space, the Color Out of Bluetspur isn't content with a rest-stop in the local farmer's well. It wants to go touring. And meet you.

Edit: If it understands human faith and thinks of itself as a god, it probably wants to try out clerics and paladins - if only because they are effective defenders and radiant damage is neat. I'm trying to imagine a buff, strength-based illithid in heavy armor with heavy weapons. With smites (int-based smites)? And what if it sets up churches in other domains?
Glad you enjoyed it. I have actually thought a bit about this idea, and though I'm generally leaning against it (the elder brain is still reclusive overall), I do like the idea that it has done some dabbling in the religious side of things (another heresy for the list). I've actually recently helped adapt and update a collection of holy warrior variations of the paladin for other alignments that appeared in Dragon back in the day. The LE version (the Illrigger if I remember correctly) would make for an interesting use here. I imagine that the experiment overall was a 'failure', but a small order of Illrigger-illithids exists that are useful enough for the elder brain to keep around. It wouldn't be the first time the Dark Powers granted priestly powers in the absence of a true god.
When I read this thread, I was just thinking about what seemed wrong to me about Shadowborn Manor and Ebonbane. What's so special about a random fiend that his brand of evil got him tossed into Ravenloft? Why is it even a Ravenloft adventure and not a Forgotten Realms quest? That's why I redid Azalin to emphasize the choices he made long before he became a lich and entered Ravenloft. Ultimately, I like that you appreciate Ravenloft is not a plane of evil and creepy gothic stuff. It's a plane of people who make terrible choices and then continue to make them when confronted with cluebats and opportunities for redemption - and creepy gothic stuff.
(Ebonbane is so very much on my list. I think I have an idea there, but still working on it. Azalin I've pretty much nailed down a few things to round off the edges.)

Yeah, I've felt that the strength of Ravenloft has really been the perfectly crafted nature of Strahd. It's so easy to understand his crimes, his desires that lead him to those crimes, his torment, and why he keeps chasing damnation instead of letting it all go. And yes, really, one of the major themes of a lot of gothic literature is choices and the consequences of those choices; personal agency is an absolute necessity for the gothic villain (and the gothic hero to be honest).
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Re: My updated take on [Insert Domain Name Here]

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With that out of the way, I want to talk about my next target: Duke Gundar and Gundarak.

Hoooboy, this was probably to me always the worst domain in the original box set. It was honestly so bad that, when I started compiling my master list of domains and darklords (200 strong and growing), I originally left it off before finally putting it back in with the hope that I would eventually find a fix for it. I think I might have found at least a partial fix.

So, for the disclaimer bit, I don't have anything on his pre-Ravenloft history and honestly I don't see a real need to at this point: Gundar entered Ravenloft through some form of gate and, after entering the mists, became a darklord. But we can have a few guesses at what he probably did before coming to Ravenloft based on his actions as Duke and his curse. Now on to that.

The hard part, in my opinion, was coming up with a unique and interesting curse for Gundar, especially considering the plethora of vampire and vampire-variant darklords in Ravenloft. There needed to be something unique about Gundar to make him stand out among them. Then I remembered Kanchelsis, Lord of Vampires (D&D minor deity of vampires) who is also known by the titles The Beast and the Rake. For those unfamiliar with Kanchelsis or this idea, it represents the two major depictions vampires in folklore: the Beast is the animalistic, violent, brutal monster variant found in the oldest myths about blood-sucking monsters, while the Rake is the calm, suave, charming version much favored in Gothic literature. Strahd is a fairly typical depiction of the Rake.

Gundar looks around and sees the respect and fear that someone like Strahd commands, at how he handles himself with a level of dignity and poise and desires such. Gundar very much wants to *be* the Rake-type character. But Gundar lacks self-control. Inevitably, he allows himself to be overcome by his strong emotions (anger, lust, hunger, you name it) and goes into a bestial frenzy. Duke Gundar wants to be the Rake, but instead always gives in to his inner Beast. His curse pushes him towards this, always ensuring Gundar is over-stimulated in such a way that he'll want to give in to his desires and go too far...always encouraging him to act out as a monster and ruin any attempt at building himself up as a more refined gentleman.

This is basically how I think I want to approach Gundar, and work out some extra details on Gundarak to reflect this situation.
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Re: My updated take on [Insert Domain Name Here]

Post by Mistmaster »

This is my take of Gundarak
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