Horse realistic move action

[Joël of the FoS]

IMC, the players will eventually escort a carriage while being on horses. I guess half of the PCs will be in front, half in rear.

At one point, a gargoyle leaping attack from the sky will crash the carriage and completely stop it. It will be a complete surprise.

My question : it seems unrealistic that all players will be able to change the course of their horse first thing next round to attack the gargoyle, as the rules allows. Realistically, not all PCs will react quickly enough?

How would you DM this? A surprise roll ? The horses’? If missed next round their horse makes another move forward, and only then they could try to backtrack, reach the carriage and attack?

I’m trying to have the gargoyle attack the carriage, snatch the woman inside, and fly away

Also, what is the manoeuvrability of a horse moving at 40, to make a 180 degree move? Rider has to use a move action to stop the horse and turn back ? (Otherwise the horses’ kneecaps will explodes )

[Mischief]

Edit: I thought about this again. If this is a "cutscene" with a predetermined end, why even have combat? Why not run it as a narration exercise with the player chasing after the beast? Chases can be fun, especially on horses with skill checks. Obviously the players need to have agency, but hopefully they are mature enough to see a plot hook for what it is. Maybe you ask each PC to narrate what they want to do during the assault. If it's an attack the Gargoyle brushes it off in some way, but decides who it hates the most . If you want combat, maybe the sound attack drew other beasts from nearby and now they have to defend the survivors and the wreckage of the carriage.

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As my posting habits would imply, I'm more familiar with 5e. To me, it seems like your goal is to knock your PCs into disarray so this gargoyle has a reasonable chance to get away with distressing your damsel. I think a reasonable way of accomplishing this is to act out the horses' panic rather than go at it from the horse physics angle.

So the gargoyle drops in, maybe a PC spots it, but either way, they don't have time to do much more than shout. It comes crushing down on the carriage. Splinters fly. The woman in the carriage screams. The dread beast, crouched like a lion atop its wooden prey, screeches horribly and shakes the very stones of the earth, sending the horses into a bucking panic.

Ask the PCs to make an Athletics or Animal Handling check to stay on their horse, or an Acrobatics check to leap off the horse and avoid falling prone, their choice. On failure, the PC falls off the horse, landing prone in a space within 5 feet of it. If you like natural 1 disasters (I don't), on a 1 they might get their foot caught in the stirrup (and then dragged when the horse takes off running next round). PCs who have chosen to leap or have fallen off their horse lose control of their horse.

Now you roll initiative, and the first round of combat begins. Horses without a rider also roll initiative and behave according to their natural inclinations which very well may be fleeing or trampling nearby prone PCs on the ground with their hooves. PCs who handled their animal remain mounted and go as normal. Characters on the ground do the expected. Characters who made the athletics check have a contest of wills (Wis) with their horse at the start of their turn, adding their proficiency in animal handling. If the PC wins, the horse calms and they go as normal. If they lose, you can give the same three choices to try to stay on their horses, or have the horse take half its movement in a random direction and tell the PC they wasted their turn getting their horse back under control, and that PC goes normally next turn. Whatever is easier for you.

Edit: I'd send two gargoyles, just in case. The best laid plans and all...

Editx2 Grammar.

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

Last I knew, I think you were 3.5, or maybe Pathfinder. Either way, the answer is roughly the same as Mischief's with the skill names changed. Use spot/listen/perception to see who gets to act in the surprise round, make initiative checks to determine order in the surprise round. (Fudge the rolls to have the gargoyle go first Give the gargoyle a very high Dex and Improved Initiative to increase the chances of it going first.) Those who miss the surprise round have their mounts continue ahead during that round, since they didn't direct them otherwise. If the horses aren't trained for combat, it's a DC20 Ride check to control them as a move action; fail that check and it's a full round action to make them move. You could also have the whole party (including horses) make fear checks. The PCs will likely succeed, but the horses might bolt. It's a DC25 Handle Animal to "push" the horse to do something it doesn't want to do, like turn around and fight when panicked. (after a DC5 ride check to stay in the saddle when the horse rears)

I know your storyline, so I know there's only one gargoyle (golem), because it's THE Gargoyle of the Great Cathedral, but consider giving him some backup/cover in the form of a few wingmen. Maybe he has the power to animate the non-magical gargoyles of the cathedral into some lesser form of animated object or lesser stone golem. (Give Goliath a "Bronx" or two, if you catch that reference... I know you're the right generation for it, but I don't know if the show aired in Canada. ) Or simply let him control some bats or ravens or something to get in the way of anyone trying to stop him.

[Resonant Curse]

I haven't seen a Gargoyles reference in forever. I was just thinking of the show a few days ago.

[Five]

Answers appear to be covered already, so there's not much for me to add.

Rules/Edition aside (I have 2/5 familiars, but I'm also largely narrative-driven),

Positioning of PCs will be a factor, in regards to shock, or, fright recovery. Assuming the PCs are split into equal formation and not clustered around the carriage (1), the rearguard will probably be first responders, as there will naturally be less maneuvering of their horses once they get them under control (they are already facing the carriage, so it's: fright/noise and sight, settle horses with moderate to great difficulty, charge forward, action). The vanguard will have much more of an "action burn", as they will have a longer overall recovery time (lesser fright/noise, settle horses with average to moderate difficulty, natural inclination to shoulder check commotion, 180 degree turn, steady horse again as it may see/fear the gargoyle, charge, action).

If the PCs have the numbers and/or the tactical smarts then there may be a middle guard. If this is the case then they could be the first responders (great fright, settle horses with extreme difficulty, action), with the rearguard being second, and the vanguard being last (2). However, being so close to the impacting body bomb will or can, cinematically, make the riders more reflexive with their fright (and/or intuitively defensive of flying debris) and that extra tug of the reins may increase the odds of nose-diving their horses...

1. If the PCs are in tight formation around the carriage then all riders and horses should be subject to great fright, and great difficulty in getting the horses under control. Only major differences are: the vanguard horses may bolt up ahead, the rearguard horses my rear up that much more violently that the riders run a very real risk of being tossed from the saddle (or the horse even flipping onto its back), and the poor bastards in the middle guard have almost no chance of remaining in the saddle. Hopefully they don't get crushed to death by their horses (they won't, they're PCs. Crushing damage though!).

2. If any of the PCs opt for ranged attacks then naturally their individual path to action will be quickened.

Gargoyle's action (as I see it anyway): Body bombs side of carriage opposite the poor woman (for both shock and target exposure), a clawed brush aside of what's left of the roof (maybe even to throw at the closest and quickest to recover PC, if you want to flesh the action out a tad), victim snatch (after a brief/kicking struggle to extend scene/tease the heroics of the PCs), escape/flight.

If the PCs recover quicker than you'd like (bang-on rolls, genius roleplaying, etc), or if you want to add some villainous flair, alt a standoff/hostage scene (knife-like talon to terrified woman's perfumed throat; whimpering; tears of fear; blood/urine trickle, etc) with or without classic gothic dialogue (sometimes there's something just devilishly disturbing about Evil being silent). This will still take the piss out of their sails and forward your plot...?

P.S.: Yes, Gargoyles was aired in Canada.

[DustBunny]

but I'm also largely narrative-driven),

Ditto. The mechanical aspects have been covered more or less - though if actual maneuverability is required, the turn rules for flying creatures could be modified.

But from the scene point of view the most important horseman in the scene has not been talked about - the person driving the carridge.
The driver may be a 0 level NPC, and the horses pulling the cart would be 'show ponies' and not war horses. And they are under full DM control

G dive bombs them - the driver will freak out (or be squished) and the pulling horses panic. Make a few 'rolls' behind the screen for the driver and make a 'oooh, nasty' expression.
The PC's may be able to react quickly - esp the druid, but you can manipulate the scenario from here...

*The paniced cart horses bolt, and the cart goes careening down the narrow streets, ramming through the front PC's, while G does a dramtic pose and rips the roof off to get I.
*The paniced horses bolt, breaking their harness, adding to the confusion as the PC's have to dodge charging horses and crash into any rear guard.
*The cart driver gets used as a club to bat away PC's who get lucky. Or G throws the cart driver in front of any approaching PC's to slow them down.
*Fire. The cart oil lamps shatter and start a fire. Horses are deadly afraid of fire. And all that expensive lacqured wood burns like mad.
Also the fire adds to the confusion and again allows G to make an classical villian pose with a burning background.

[DeepShadow of FoS]

Can you give the attacker the Spring Attack feat? That will allow it to swoop in, attack, and swoop out in a single full round action.

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

Can you give the attacker the Spring Attack feat? That will allow it to swoop in, attack, and swoop out in a single full round action.

I believe it's "fly by attack" for flyers

[DeepShadow of FoS]

Can you give the attacker the Spring Attack feat? That will allow it to swoop in, attack, and swoop out in a single full round action.

I believe it's "fly by attack" for flyers

Yeah, I figured there was a different name for it. Variations on a theme.

You may also be able to use initiative order to have it act after everyone else is committed to their move actions. That gives the same basic effect as momentum,

[Cromstar]

Also, what is the manoeuvrability of a horse moving at 40, to make a 180 degree move? Rider has to use a move action to stop the horse and turn back ? (Otherwise the horses’ kneecaps will explodes )

Ok, I'm late to this thread, but I'll post this as someone who has ridden a lot of horses from the realism angle:

There is a horse gaming event (games are just that: games of skill where speed is the only objective) called Keyhole. In Keyhole, the horse and rider run the length of the arena, through a 4' wide hole into a box. The box is 12' x 12' and the entire objective is to do a 180 degree turn and race back out the hole you entered and back to the starting point at the other end of the arena. A skilled horse and rider can turn practically on a dime. My mother runs a local 4H horse show, this year's champion (under 18 years of age I'll note) at the district level completed the event (our arena is 120'-ish long) in 8.9 seconds. Note that these measurements change, but they are usually close to this size.

An unskilled rider isn't likely to be able to handle that kind of maneuver, but if you tell a horse to turn at max speed, any reasonably trained horse can and will turn and fairly tightly. To get an idea how tight a horse can turn here's a 10 second video giving a good look at the horse's turn.

[Joël of the FoS]

Thank you guys for these ideas, will use most of them I'm using 3.5 ed.

No, it's not a cutscene: the PCs escort a noble woman (Ivana) but the Gargoyle of the Cathedral will kidnap her.

Yes, I'm aware of Gargoyles tv show, but by then I was too old to watch comics on tv, and the kids were too young at that time. My time spent comic watching on tv, by then, was 90's Disney with the kids

There is a horse gaming event (games are just that: games of skill where speed is the only objective) called Keyhole. In Keyhole, the horse and rider run the length of the arena, through a 4' wide hole into a box. The box is 12' x 12' and the entire objective is to do a 180 degree turn and race back out the hole you entered and back to the starting point at the other end of the arena. A skilled horse and rider can turn practically on a dime.

Interesting movie, thank you. I noticed the floor is sand, and it may ease stopping and turning? Would they have the same 180 degree manoeuvrability on hard floor?

And to complete : what is the maximum angle of turn in a move action an unskilled rider could do? Does a 90 degree turn every twenty feet reasonable? Or a move action to turn 180 degree?

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In my tool box for this event :

1) DC 25 spot or DC 20 Listen to see/hear the diving creature (a dark creature diving from 300+ feet high at night) : surprise round for those unaware (horse continue one move forward as it wasn't directed otherwise, or panic in fear as for #2).

The 600 lbs Gargoyle pounce on front of carriage and completely stops it. Loud noise. Carriage driver is killed. Horse on carriage panic and flee from carriage carrying the shattered front of carriage (and the dead driver's corpse).

2) Fear DC 15 (8+ 15/2) for the horses and those unaware (large monster sudden appearance and very lound crash noise) + Stay in saddle check (Ride) DC5 for those horses struck with fear. Rear horses bolts and turn to flee, front horses flee away at maximum speed. Handle Animal DC 25 to push the panicked animal back to battle.

3) Control Mount in Battle (Ride) DC20 to attack (I believe they have horses untrained for battle, but the players might think otherwise, I might have to let this one pass)

4) and DC 15 animal handling skills for those wanting to make sharp 180 degree moves, otherwise making a 180 move takes a move action.

To the confusion : will add oil fire indeed, good idea.

Ah ah ah at using the driver as a club but I want the G to flee quickly with Ivana back to the Cathedral.

Not sure for fly-by. Diving / crashing the carriage (using its pounce ability), snatching the girl, then fly away seems too many action for just one round. This Boritsi carriage has a roof, if it didn't fly-by might have worked.

[Cromstar]

Interesting movie, thank you. I noticed the floor is sand, and it may ease stopping and turning? Would they have the same 180 degree manoeuvrability on hard floor?

And to complete : what is the maximum angle of turn in a move action an unskilled rider could do? Does a 90 degree turn every twenty feet reasonable? Or a move action to turn 180 degree?

Its often something like sand, loose dirt, etc. We use gravel, about 3-4 inches deep in ours. It does make it easier for horses to stop or slow down quickly, and its better if a rider falls off a horse.

At running speeds, horses stop quickly by almost sitting on their rear, letting their rear hooves dig into the ground to stop. Loose ground covering definitely helps with that, as the horse ends up digging into the material, increasing the friction and weight which slows them down faster. On a hard surface, it would depend on the roughness of it. On something like flagstones, wooden planks, etc that are pretty smooth, horse hooves don't get a lot of purchase so the horse has trouble slowing down (one of the reasons horses wear shoes are to give extra grip on these kinds of surfaces). and thus harder to turn quickly. On something that was rougher, like packed earth, it would still be harder to turn, but if the horse can dig into it with its hooves at all, it could still (potentially) turn pretty fast.

And unskilled rider, based on my experience and thinking here, has about 3 options:

1. Slow the horse enough to easily make a tight turn. Since it requires slowing, then turning, then building up speed again, an unskilled rider is probably going to add some distance slowing and then have to cover that in return. This method probably wastes some time, so you aren't going to be in the fray until the second (maybe third) round, assuming you started immediately and had no trouble with the horse.

2. Making an arcing turn at high speed. This covers a bit of distance, but doesn't necessarily move much further away as you swing around in an arc back to the starting point. The advantage is keeping up your speed and it requires the least amount of skill to pull off. Part of the disadvantage is that it still takes time, especially if you take it wide. In theory, you can turn a horse pretty tightly even at a gallop. Even an unskilled rider could probably do this in a arc with a radius of 40 or 50 feet if they tried doing this. You would probably be back to the starting point no later than the second round.

3. Attempt to execute a keyhole-style turn. This is potentially the fastest option, but also hardest for an unskilled rider to pull off. Honestly, there's a small chance an unskilled rider on a *well-trained* horse could do it. But the odds are much higher they mess up, and either end up off the horse (which hurts like hell incidentally) or losing control of it, which gives the horse the freedom to do what *it* wants. At a minimum, attempting such a maneuver is going to require a hard check to prevent being thrown from the horse (skilled riders can be dismounted doing this; unskilled riders would face a steep penalty IMO), whether it works or not.

I'd say option 2 is definitely the best choice for an unskilled rider, assuming they have control of the horse, which is probably up in the air in a situation like this. War horses and the like are highly trained and wouldn't spook in almost any circumstances, while untrained horses can literally spook at nothing. That said, if your gargoyle is actual, factual stone, it might be less likely to spook the horses due to the lack of a smell (though smashing into a carriage could spook them). Any unskilled rider who loses control of their horse isn't going to get it under control in time to respond to a gargoyle snatch-and-go.

Ignore the italicized text, I just finished reading the rest of the post. I think you've got it handled pretty good. The crash and crunch is going to spook the horses. Ironically, at night, if you play with the gargoyle as an actual stone creature, the horses won't really know where its at, especially if it isn't moving around a lot; horses have crap night vision. So it might be worth giving your players a pass on attacking, unless they are trying to get right up inside it for close-quarters melee combat. Checks to make turns, otherwise they take longer looks like a good choice for the action economy as I understand it.

[Joël of the FoS]

For those following this thread, see the Joel's Campaign post to see how it went