Ivana Boritsi, "experimental"? (calling Dr Freud or Naylor)

[Joël of the FoS]

I was reading the great An Illustrated History of the Core (by Ryan Naylor) again the other night, when I fell onto this :

Hazlik is still I think the only homosexual canon character in Ravenloft, although Ivana Boritsi is implied to be a little experimental in her youth, and Arthur Sedgwick may have unreciprocated love for Alanik Ray.

Ivana? Where is that said or implied?

[KingCorn]

It might have to do with her making her first Ermordenung by kissing her favorite servent, Nostalia. Though in that cases, its implied that Nostalia might be the one who has feelings rather than the other way around.

[The Lesser Evil]

That might be a reference to the bits about in Ravenloft MC I and II (p. 77) and Gaz IV (p. 21) implying a possible romantic subtext between Ivana and Nostalia Romaine. Nostalia and Ivana were noted to be very close friends in their youth, that Nostalia was utterly devoted to Ivana, to the point Nostalia would do anything for her, such as being her first "test subject" for becoming an ermordenung or Ivana's orchestration of Camille'd demise through Nostalia Romaine abetween Ivana Boritsi and Nostalia Romaine. The book goes on to describe how Ivana of her mother Camille through Nostalia Romaine's poison kiss. The nightmares of seeing Camille die made Nostalia forever sick of touching the flesh of women, possibly implying that Nostalia might have had or experimented with romantic relations with Ivana before.

Unrelated, but I believe there's at least two other characters with same gender attractions in Ravenloft, both coming from the Tapestry of Dark Souls novel. Leith and Maeve (neither the faery queen nor the Forfarian druid Maeve, but instead a third character named Maeve) had a same sex romance, though Leith was previously married to a man prior to him being taken by the Tapestry of Dark Souls so she would likely be bisexual. I can't remember if Maeve ever expressed any attraction or romantic feelings to a male character. She too had a husband, but this was an arranged marriage she was forced into.

[Joël of the FoS]

It might have to do with her making her first Ermordenung by kissing her favorite servent, Nostalia. Though in that cases, its implied that Nostalia might be the one who has feelings rather than the other way around.

From what I know : Ivana didn’t transform Nostalia into an ermordenung by kissing her, but by giving here a « concoction » or an « infusion » that nearly killed her and transformed her into a lethal living weapon. A potion, not a kiss.

And I agree Nostalia (not Ivana) is the one that has a troubled emotions with touching women (see below).

That might be a reference to the bits about in Ravenloft MC I and II (p. 77) and Gaz IV (p. 21) implying a possible romantic subtext between Ivana and Nostalia Romaine. Nostalia and Ivana were noted to be very close friends in their youth, that Nostalia was utterly devoted to Ivana, to the point Nostalia would do anything for her, such as being her first "test subject" for becoming an ermordenung or Ivana's orchestration of Camille'd demise through Nostalia Romaine abetween Ivana Boritsi and Nostalia Romaine. The book goes on to describe how Ivana of her mother Camille through Nostalia Romaine's poison kiss. The nightmares of seeing Camille die made Nostalia forever sick of touching the flesh of women, possibly implying that Nostalia might have had or experimented with romantic relations with Ivana before.

That is also my knowledge of events, but still I think the « implied » is far fetched.

First, if all same-sex very close friends are implied to be gay, that would make a lot of them Unless it is known that Borcans (or Borcans nobles) are very open minded in that matter, but I never saw any reference to that.

Second, back when Camille was killed (see the detailled event in MC2): Nostalia fooled her and made her believe a mob was there to murder Camille. Nostalia had Camille flee through a secret passage where a horse driven coach was waiting for her to flee. She got on it, but then her daughter Ivana reveals herself as the coach driver.

Then Nostalia kissed Camille to poison her, while Ivana was cruelly laughing at her mother.

Nostalia could have just grabbed her arm to send poison to Camille’s body, but the girls made their plan for Nostalia to kiss Camille, so that in her last moments Camille felt the treason shock even more. I see it as cruel and poetic killing. A big « ah ah ah, Mother, with this kiss, feel the depth of our betrayal while you die », or « In the end, I own you big time ».

After the event, Nostalia avoid the contact of women because she somehow had a lasting impression of Camille’s lips on her own, and she has recurent nighmares over it (Camille back as a ghost to haunt her). She is troubled to the point of being « sickened » by the idea of touching another woman.

So that last contact with Camille troubled her a lot, for reasons that belongs to Nostalia. She loathes the idea and avoid killing women by touching them.

You can see it under the two possibilities :

If Nostalia was « experimental » before, she is possibly quite troubled that something she enjoyed is now sickening her.

If Nostalia was straight before, those recuring nightmares trouble her, thus she avoids touching another woman. Or she has something unclear on her mind as her sexual attirance to women, and anyway reached the same conclusion about not touching women because of those nightmares.

That said, that is about Nostalia and not Ivana. That is why I think the "implied" is a bit far fetched.

Other opinions? Things that I missed?

[Cromstar]

As a slight addendum on the issue of Nostalia, when she goes to Camille and "Here, she professed her loyalty and love, saying that she had come to warn her monarch about Ivana's foul plot[...]"

Now, this may or may not mean anything, but in the context of modern readings is a strange emphasis on the 'love' part, to my mind. Combined with the fact that they go with a kiss for the murder itself and the very strong emphasis on Nostalia's utter devotion to Ivana, and it would not be a wrong reading to imply there was (either in the intention of the authors *or* in the intention of Ivana's plot itself) an intent to express an undercurrent of lesbianism. But there's nothing in the MC entry itself for Nostalia to decisively conclude either way. Other sources, especially about Ivana, might contain more relevant information.

[Joël of the FoS]

As a slight addendum on the issue of Nostalia, when she goes to Camille and "Here, she professed her loyalty and love, saying that she had come to warn her monarch about Ivana's foul plot[...]"

Now, this may or may not mean anything, but in the context of modern readings is a strange emphasis on the 'love' part, to my mind.

Interesting. Let's consider this : at the time of the murder, it is well known to Camille that Ivana and Nostalia are best friends. Now it means Nostalia has to go the extra mille with Camille to make sure the murder plot will work - Nostalia probably disavowed Ivana the best she could, disavowed her long term friendship, disavowed Ivana's murder plot by warning Camille, and thus professed her "love and loyalty" with Camille ?

"Loyalty and love" maybe simply meaning "I do not stand by Ivana's side anymore, I now stand on your side".

But indeed now that I reread this, that is possibly the part where all the "implying" comes from.

Combined with the fact that they go with a kiss for the murder itself and the very strong emphasis on Nostalia's utter devotion to Ivana, and it would not be a wrong reading to imply there was (either in the intention of the authors *or* in the intention of Ivana's plot itself) an intent to express an undercurrent of lesbianism.

So it implies Nostalia would possibly bed both Ivana and Camille? Wicked! That's level A debauchery for Nostalia, and there is no acknowledgement of this in Nostalia's background stories. Not sure. What do you think?

But there's nothing in the MC entry itself for Nostalia to decisively conclude either way.

Indeed, considering the evidence, so far a jury could not reach a "beyond doubt" guilty charge of being "experimental"

Other sources, especially about Ivana, might contain more relevant information.

Yes please bring all the relevant info!

It's too bad there was never a RL novel with Ivana inside, if just for the wicked quotes I could use in my game.

I'm getting deep in this question, because Ivana is an important NPC in the current arc of my campaign, and that is something that could change the way I "play" her. in future sessions.

So far IMC Ivana is the Black Widow, killing men that get too close and prove inadequate, or just for the fun of it.

Joël

[Mischief]

With Ivana's misandrist tendencies and jealousy, if this was 5e, the writers would definitely go that direction - probably both directions. Ivana very strongly reminds me of Batman's Poison Ivy (and I equally strongly suspect Ivana was a character borrow from that franchise). DC Ivy's character development with newer character Harley Quinn could easily be transplanted onto Ivana and one of her ladies in waiting.

For what it's worth, I assumed Ivana was bisexual from the 3e material, just from the way she was written.

VIEW CONTENT:

I was reading the great An Illustrated History of the Core (by Ryan Naylor) again the other night, when I fell onto this :
Hazlik is still I think the only homosexual canon character in Ravenloft.

This isn't your question, but since this topic is here, I'm going to point out that Strahd make the jump in 5e. His current favorite consort is Escher, a man, and CoS explicitly says on page 10...

Strahd can sense the arrival of new blood in his domain. When newcomers enter Barovia, he shifts his attention ... to his new guests so that he can determine whether any of them is worthy to be his successor or consort. .... Strahd pays close attention to adventurers who are charismatic and arrogant, like himself. He focuses his attacks on them, to see how much they can withstand. If they crumble easily, he loses interest in them. If they exhibit great fortitude and defiance, his interest is piqued-even more so if the character displays uncommon knowledge or beauty. Such a person might not be worthy to succeed him, but the man or woman might provide amusement to Strahd as a new possession.

Of the Knights of Argynvost, Godfrey (no, not the Mordentish one) and Vladimir were lovers.

Edit: Aw heck, my icon changed. I liked the red and gold one. Can I go back? :C

[The Lesser Evil]

Here's one possible explanation I might have of the situation: Ivana might have a love for ironic or "creative" (=depraved) punishment/revenge. Not quite to the degree of Ivan Dilisnya, but still there. In a sense, Ivana might've seen Camille as responsible for Pieter's death after a fact, in that she ruined (or helped to ruin) him despite Camille's claims he seduced her. Since Camille killed Ivana's lover after a fashion, so it might be an ironic punishment that Ivana killed Camille with Ivana's lover (with lover perhaps being more on Nostalia's part than Ivana, Ivana may have been in her experimentation with Nostalia earnestly trying things out, or more likely for the purposes of broadening her horizons in manipulation or perhaps some combination of the two. In any case, experimenting doesn't necessarily mean Ivana decided it was a thing that worked for her.

For Nostalia's part, she might not have been so much into bedding with Camille. More likely, it was to show Ivana how real her emotions were for her, such that she would do anything for Ivana including killing Camille in an especially humiliating and painful way.

As for the Black Widow thing, I don't think she necessarily needs to be restricted to one reason like personal disappointment with why she kills men. I'm sure she manipulates and murders sometimes to help ruin other people's love lives- she is described as hating the entire concept of love. And as an additional layer/motivation, the classic image of the Black Widow is to marry somebody and then murder them for their riches. Ivana has been noted as needing funds for the outrageously hedonistic lifestyles she consciously recognizes as substituting for true love (see Gaz IV p. 151)- although she taxes people a lot there's no reason she wouldn't want all the sources of income she can get. So if being the Black Widow is an ideological calling and/or a business rather than only how she conducts romantic relations, it might open up more potential for very complicated or nuanced possibilities in her relationships. I'm not saying that this interpretation is the definitive one that everyone should go for, as there are very many different ways you can interpret Ivana's situation.

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

Keep in mind, by the standards of the day at the time this was all written, such things were still very taboo. The Black Box came out (no pun intended) in 1991. The same year that two women kissed on US TV for the first time (LA Law) and it was seen as controversial. And that was a show for adults, airing late a night. D&D was still a game marketed to teens and up. There was no way anything beyond hinting would have made it in the products.

By the time of the 3e line, things were a bit looser, but still not by much. They made Hazlik definitively gay at that point, but didn't do the same for Ivana.

[Joël of the FoS]

Thank you all for your comments.

Lesser Evil, I like how you explain the possibility, and the implications for Ivana. Quite solid.

Indeed, Ron, it took a while for gay caracters to appear in D&D, for the reasons you remind us.

OK, so there's a possibility that Ivana tried things in her youth. It's not that I hate the idea, mind you, I just wanted to know where it comes from. I'm probably the only one who never saw that !

Edit: Aw heck, my icon changed. I liked the red and gold one. Can I go back? :C

Mmmm, try deleting some of your posts to get under a hundred total posts on these boards

[ewancummins]

I haven't seen anything related to Ivana Boritsi that would support the idea she had any such romantic inclinations.
Of course, it could be so if the DM wished.
Darklords includes some details on one of her past lovers. She has always been shown as involved with and attracted to men.

Nostalia Romaine, though, looks a bit different to me.

Nostalia's assassination of Camille Dilisnya with a deadly kiss differs from (real-world) history's most infamous betrayal in almost every respect, but the idea of a subject or follower betraying his lord, or in this case, her lady, with a kiss might still be relevant. The kiss may thus be symbolic, an act of fealty and love turned to treason and murder. So it might have nothing whatever to do with romance.

And what's the cultural context?Do Borcans kiss close friends and relations on the lips? Only the cheek?

But I do think there is probably meant to be a sexual subtext with Nostalia, if not necessarily with Camille. Why else would N.R. feel repulsed afterward by touching women? If it were just that she were horrified by having committed such a gruesome murder, I'd think all human contact would disgust her. Or maybe all betrayal. Or poisonings. But she only feels this way about touching women, not men. And she hasn't stopped assassinating people; far from it.

[Cromstar]

So looking into it, I was rather surprised that the only details I could find on Camille's murder are...in Nostalia's MC entry. All the information I could find on Ivana (Black Box, Red Box, the 3e Campaign Setting book, etc), just say that Ivana poisoned Camille with no details on the murder itself. Nostalia, similarly, isn't mentioned in any details concerning Ivana. Ivana definitely has a lot of emphasis on her relationships with men, however, as ewancummins points out.

Reading between the lines, I think I'd probably interpret the whole thing to imply that Nostalia probably, at a minimum, had some leanings. Ivana may or may not have experimented, but its probably not really to her taste. And this probably somewhat ties into her curse. A big part of it is that Ivana wants the kind of love she had once back...but she will kill any man for whom she has actual feelings. Meanwhile, the one person who has been close to her for her entire life and might possibly love her (Platonically or otherwise), the one person who *could* survive her poison, cannot even touch her now...and all through Ivana's own machinations, since she was the one who put Nostalia up to the transformation and murder.

[Mischief]

Nostalia aside, no comments on Ivana laying a finger on Gennifer's lips in the Legacy of the Blood stinger? That's the passage that set off my suspicions.

VIEW CONTENT:

  ...A hundred yards distant, I saw Lady Ivana emerge from a coach with the Boritsi coat of arms on the door. He led me to her, and when she spoke, I felt my blood run cold, despite my illness.
  “You would poison my kin against me, so I have seen to it that you have received a far more palatable and immediate poison. Nothing happens in Borca without my knowledge, and no one will ever succeed in subterfuge against me.”
  I tried to explain that I was not trying to poison her family against her, but she put a gloved finger to my lips and said, “I care nothing for your excuses. I don’t even want to hear pleas for mercy. I just want you to know that Borca is my domain, and when I say something is so it will be so. You will never lay eyes upon the Deathstone. Nor will you ever lay eyes upon Bevel again. You will never set foot upon Borcan soil again. If you do, I will not be so merciful next time.”
  Lady Ivana pulled a tiny vial from a small purse at her waist and offered it to me.
  “Drink this. It will neutralize the poison in your blood.” I did as she instructed, and while I did not feel better, neither did the awful shaking that had been growing upon me worsen.
  “Heed my warning, Miss Weathermay-Foxgrove,” Lady Ivana said, turning back to her coach, “and pass it along to your sister as well. Neither of you is welcome in my land.”

[Joël of the FoS]

Nostalia aside, no comments on Ivana laying a finger on Gennifer's lips in the Legacy of the Blood stinger? That's the passage that set off my suspicions.

VIEW CONTENT:

  ...A hundred yards distant, I saw Lady Ivana emerge from a coach with the Boritsi coat of arms on the door. He led me to her, and when she spoke, I felt my blood run cold, despite my illness.
  “You would poison my kin against me, so I have seen to it that you have received a far more palatable and immediate poison. Nothing happens in Borca without my knowledge, and no one will ever succeed in subterfuge against me.”
  I tried to explain that I was not trying to poison her family against her, but she put a gloved finger to my lips and said, “I care nothing for your excuses. I don’t even want to hear pleas for mercy. I just want you to know that Borca is my domain, and when I say something is so it will be so. You will never lay eyes upon the Deathstone. Nor will you ever lay eyes upon Bevel again. You will never set foot upon Borcan soil again. If you do, I will not be so merciful next time.”
  Lady Ivana pulled a tiny vial from a small purse at her waist and offered it to me.
  “Drink this. It will neutralize the poison in your blood.” I did as she instructed, and while I did not feel better, neither did the awful shaking that had been growing upon me worsen.
  “Heed my warning, Miss Weathermay-Foxgrove,” Lady Ivana said, turning back to her coach, “and pass it along to your sister as well. Neither of you is welcome in my land.”

I saw it as infantilizing, treating Gennifer as a child. In my view, she could have dome the same gesture with a man.

But it's funny how people react differently to details.

[The Lesser Evil]

So looking into it, I was rather surprised that the only details I could find on Camille's murder are...in Nostalia's MC entry. All the information I could find on Ivana (Black Box, Red Box, the 3e Campaign Setting book, etc), just say that Ivana poisoned Camille with no details on the murder itself. Nostalia, similarly, isn't mentioned in any details concerning Ivana. Ivana definitely has a lot of emphasis on her relationships with men, however, as ewancummins points out.

Reading between the lines, I think I'd probably interpret the whole thing to imply that Nostalia probably, at a minimum, had some leanings. Ivana may or may not have experimented, but its probably not really to her taste. And this probably somewhat ties into her curse. A big part of it is that Ivana wants the kind of love she had once back...but she will kill any man for whom she has actual feelings. Meanwhile, the one person who has been close to her for her entire life and might possibly love her (Platonically or otherwise), the one person who *could* survive her poison, cannot even touch her now...and all through Ivana's own machinations, since she was the one who put Nostalia up to the transformation and murder.

It's interesting that, as "S" notes, the Jongleur is Ivana's other primary long-lasting companion/associate. He is thought to be "too hideously burned ever catch Ivana's eye" (Gaz IV, p. 28). So put together with Nostalia, it seems the only people Ivana keeps around her on a long-term basis are the ones she will have no romantic involvement or similar relationships with.