A bigger core

[Vlad]

Just wondering.. after the Grand Conjunction, the core got pruned a bit (Bluetspur, G'henna, Nightmare lands), which I can understand thematically. Also, the clusters were a great addition. But why didn't they just make the core bigger?
- Sourange - the only reason it's isolated is (I think) because the culture is completely different from the core. But they could have put it west somewhere in the Sea of Sorrows?
- Likewise, the frozen reaches could be somewhere in the northwest of the SoS.
- The Amber wastes & Verduous lands could be in the southeast of the nocturnal sea.
- Shadowlands: why isn't this just a part of the Core? Even the phantsmal forest would be a good place to put there. We have the Shadow Rift there as well, so why not this one? Culturally it aligns goos with some of the southern domains.
- G'Henna, Bluetspur and even the Burning peaks could be puit together I think, perhaps even remotely connected to the Core somehow. Just far enough to ensure that all misery stays there (Gods, Illtihids, Hunger). Some 'hell corner' of the Core, so to say. Perhaps even connected to Vechor?
- Staunton bluffs could be put anywhere. Even within Mordent..
Only Paridon would remain alone. and I'Cath, or that could also be connected with the verduous lands and Rokushima Taiyoo.

This would also create more necessity to take a boat somewhere. There are quite some modules/mini-adventures that feature ships (Ship of Horror, Neither Man nor Beast, Bleak house, several CotN chapters, etc). However, they hardly have any reason to take a ship now, because there's hardly a place to go..

Any idea why this was never done/considered?
I personally don't like the islands, because they make my campaign look like a television series with the same cast, but no continuous storyline.
If they were travelling around, they would never find these islands, unless I specifically call the mist to deposit them there. I can hear them say 'So, what's the quest here, before we can go on?').

[Mistmaster]

I Made the various clusters continents south to the core.

[onmyoji]

I Made the various clusters continents south to the core.

Do you have a map or any kind of writeup for your approach? I've heard a lot here and there about how you've handled things and find myself more curious. Anywhere I can go to sate that curiosity?

— onmyoji

[Mistmaster]

I Made the various clusters continents south to the core.

Do you have a map or any kind of writeup for your approach? I've heard a lot here and there about how you've handled things and find myself more curious. Anywhere I can go to sate that curiosity?

— onmyoji

http://www.fraternityofshadows.com/foru ... =1&t=10496 Here you are, the first thread is a general summary,

[onmyoji]

http://www.fraternityofshadows.com/foru ... =1&t=10496 Here you are, the first thread is a general summary,

Awesome, thanks!

— onmyoji

[DocBeard]

The late 2e developers were really, really into literal isolation and the threat of starvation as themes. Vorostokov, island G'Henna, landless Paridon that then also had a sewer full of hungry aliens to deal with...

The only Domain I feel really needs this treatment is Vorostokov, because the need for meat and lack of game are such an essential part of Zolink's motivation, and even then it's surrounded by mountains that make isolating the villages and preventing escape really easy. If you're having Vorostokov attached to places, and I think it's a shame we never really saw 3E Ravenloft's pitch for the Frozen Reaches because I'd love to know what their plan was, you need to switch up the curse a little so the idea of visitors makes Zolink as miserable. I think it's pretty easy to do, honestly; give the place a brief spring that is enough time for travelers to do some trading and some substance farming, but this just infuriates Zolink even more because his people have to rely on foreigners and soft men of the city to get through the next winter. Sanguina, with its focus on alchemy and urban life, I almost want to make Peter the Great's Russia in a deliberate challenge to the rural, traditional Vorostokov.

G'Henna I'd argue is more interesting with other countries to interact with, because the point of the place is horror of faith and the locals having a way out most of them don't use really sells the idea that everyone in that country believes in Yango except Yango. I do think it might be better off away from the core, core, though. What about a Fisher Kingdom in the Amber Wastes? Make Yango even more Ravenloft's answer to Jim Jones with a failing crusader state that even the Akari think is weird. Yango doesn't need to be alone to function, he needs constant reminders that he's a fraud playing a game that's gotten entirely out of hand.

The heart of Paridon is supposed to be paranoia, and as much as I like the Zehersia gazetter I think it says something that it needs the most mistways ever just to function. You could integrate the Bluffs, maybe Ghastria or one of the small 4e domains lie Griefmonte into a 'countryside' for Paridon to hang out in the Sea of Sorrows and you get a naval hub, a major city for the Core to rival Port-a-Lucine, a countryside unreliable enough to keep the Pardonians inward looking city bastards, and none of it really diminishes the threat of the doppleganger clans. The heart of Sodo's curse is his inability to fulfill his ambitions; Paridon doesn't need to be literally isolated for that.

Out of all the clusters the Amber Wastes are the easiest to expand with existing material. Weird, cursed cities in a vast desert makes alien domains like Al-Kathos and Kilnday right at home, and you could rework the Burning Peaks into a pair of feuding colonies grubbing for the greatness of their past masters. Either keep it as a cluster or slap it on the bottom of the Core. I think the Shadowlands could be worked into the Core fairly well, though a strong government that also worships Belenus raises questions for Tepest. On the other hand, the core is missing a dark knight figure and boy Elena Faith-Hold fits the mold.

Like always I think the question comes down to "what Ravenloft are you running?". The more it's a traditional campaign, the less you need the islands; the pockets serve their role better, I think, because they're easier to integrate into the more civilized, stable domains. Isolated, small islands are ideal for weekends in hell because the domain IS the dungeon, pockets of safety aren't needed.

[Vlad]

Thanks for the lengthy reply. You are right, when I started with Ravenloft, it was more island hopping, even without them knowing they were entering and leaving RL (started with the Created and Night of the living dead while they were in the Forgotten Realms. Later I did the same with some of the smaller adventures of Book of Crypts and Touch of Death. Only after that I dumped them in the demiplane for good..
However, I was getting mixed reviews from my players, though the liked the adventures (of course!), they didn't feel like they were in a real world, with places that are connected with each other. And right they were, of course. So now they are in the core, for a very long time, with a small sidestep (Vecna Reborn), but I would really love them to explore the place, including the islands.

After my initial posting, I had made a crude map, with Souragne southwest in the Sea of Sorrows. Should be west, I think. But the biggest change I made in the Nocturnal sea. 2 big landmasses:
1: attached to Vechor I had Bluetspur, G'Henna (with sea to the south, but no ports) and to the east of that Sanguinia/Vorostokov. To the east of that, the Burning peaks, with
Cavitius as a barrier.
I do have some doubts about Bluetspur, perhaps this is better as an island (see for example Marcu Vaslilis from the Forgotten Children Netbook for a great example how to
Bluetspur). On the other hand, it serves as a barrier to keep the people of G'henna stuck in their own land (aliens to the west, cold mountains to the east, well, so the famine stays). Also, the weirdness of Vechor just becomes super weird once you go into the direction of Bluetspur.
2: Southeast of Todstein a bigger contintent. First the amber wastes. With a coast line, but hardly a port. To the east of that Saragoss/Sri Raji/Wildlands. East of that, I'Cath (though I doubt they will ever go there).
Rokushima Tayoo will be to the east of these two continents.

Weakest point of this set up is the northern island: they are connected, but they all are so strange, that overland travel will probably not happen. So why make them in the first place?

Your observations are very helpful. I never really understood why G'henna should be an island. Next to Falkovnia is perhaps odd, but isn't it more horrifying that everybody starves although all neighbours have plenty (like North Korea, for instance). Not sure if it should be in the Amber Wastes. Culturally they are quite different. Perhaps you are right about the Burning peaks as well, they would be better in the South. Doesn't leave much in the north then..

Vorostokov could be connected as well, but it's so big that isolation will be there regardless, even if there is a (frozen) exit to Sanguinia. Your idea about Russia is great. Never thought of that, though I did think of Siberia when I read about Vorostokov.

Paridon. I did hour of the knife, but always thought it strange as an island. Why couldn't Paridon not just be a city of the (northwestern) core? People will not leave because of the killing once every 13 years. The could flee the place because of the marikith.. but wouldn't they flee trough the mistways as well?

I had 2 places for the Shadowlands: 1) On the former place of Arak. In stead of woods you would have the sea to the east. The mountains do fit with those in Arak (albeit a bit smaller). The phantasmal forest would be next to Tepest, which seems fitting. 2) the other place would be south of Kartakass/Hazlan, just like Homlock was in FoG. The mountains could be a continuation of the Balinoks and the phantasmal forest next to Hazlan wouldn't be strange as well.

[The Lesser Evil]

This maps update thread contains mostly updates/discussion on enlarging/merging various clusters into entities so large they're larger than the canon core. The Core itself isn't touched as much on, but it does get some treatment near the end. Somebody made a map assembling pretty much all the domains into an entire world.

I think one natural place to begin would be thinking about the Sea of Sorrows and the Nocturnal Sea, populating them with additional islands and adding continents (or the beginning of other continents) on the other ends is a natural way to start. For example, extending the Mists beyond Vechor to see where it goes.

[onmyoji]

This maps update thread contains mostly updates/discussion on enlarging/merging various clusters into entities so large they're larger than the canon core. The Core itself isn't touched as much on, but it does get some treatment near the end. Somebody made a map assembling pretty much all the domains into an entire world.

Just found that giant map, thanks to your link to the thread. Definitely gonna find a way to work that in as the "bitter" part of the bittersweet ending when my players are finished.

— onmyoji

[DocBeard]

Your observations are very helpful. I never really understood why G'henna should be an island. Next to Falkovnia is perhaps odd, but isn't it more horrifying that everybody starves although all neighbours have plenty (like North Korea, for instance). Not sure if it should be in the Amber Wastes. Culturally they are quite different. Perhaps you are right about the Burning peaks as well, they would be better in the South. Doesn't leave much in the north then..

Well that's sort of the point. Like I said, I kind of see Yango as Ravenloft's answer to Jim Jones. The chains that keep the saner G'Hennans trapped in Zhakata's embrace is the fact that they're surrounded by sand, dead civilizations, aggressive people who have very little in common with them, and worst of all, Phiraz. I'm also fascinated by the idea of a Fisher King in Ravenloft and it being Yango of all people. This has the benefit of allowing some escapees but a sense of tension because even the people who want to get out have to take a leap of faith because everything is just hazardous enough that starving might be better.

Thanks to magic you can have your cake and eat it too with Bluetspur (and the Shadow Rift/Arak, Nightmare Lands, any place that's bigger than a pocket but still has that misty, not quite material plane feel to it.) which can work like a parallel plane; there's a physical place you can go to or escape from, but it can also seep into material reality where you least expect it.