Is the avatar of Nerull stuck in Ravenloft?

[tomokaicho]

Apparently Nerull was active during the Grim Harvest. Could his avatar still be around?

[alhoon]

Nerull is too big a fish for the Dark Powers to hold. So, I would say no.

[tomokaicho]

Nerull is too big a fish for the Dark Powers to hold. So, I would say no.

Although I think it's absurd, Vecna was trapped in Ravenloft. If this is the case, I don't think we can say that a mere avatar being trapped is a big deal.

[Mephisto of the FoS]

Wasn't Nerull worshiped in Gundarak at some 90s canon? Before being changed to Erlin in 3e (I prefer Erlin and the whole Irlek-Khan Neureni connection of Gundarak, one more reason for Gunarakites and Barovians to not get along.

Was Nerull a Gundar forced religion on his subjects later abandoned for Erlin? What is your take on this forced change because Arthaus didn't have a copyright license on other worlds?

Death Ascendant was written by Lisa Smedman one of my favourite Ravenloft writers, but for some reason Lisa had often made many mistakes considering Ravenloft "canon", which is strange considering that a lot of her writtings are canon. Like the NG male fortune reading non Dukkar Vistana in the same adventure Nerull's Avatar appears (I explained the Vistana's existence in my Falkovnia report in QtR#28).

The five moons of Nova Vaasa is another Lisa Smedman idea as is Nuitari in Sithicus, one made it to 2e and 3e canon appearing also in Spectre of the Black Rose the other not. So the existene of Nerull's Avatar in Ravenloft is debatable in my opinion*.

* I wonder what Harry Callahan has to say about opinions...

[Mistmaster]

I call him Erlik, indeed. He is a major god of my Mistworld.

[Mephisto of the FoS]

In my mind I always call him Erlin the Erkling because it rhymes.

[alhoon]

Vecna was demigod and the DP were barely able to hold him. Nerull is far more powerful.
Similar to how someone abusing the horn of Valhalla may lead to the deity showing up, taking the horn and leaving Ravenloft, Nerull could do the same if his avatar was unable to leave.

[Wolfglide of the Fraternity]

Vecna was demigod and the DP were barely able to hold him. Nerull is far more powerful.
Similar to how someone abusing the horn of Valhalla may lead to the deity showing up, taking the horn and leaving Ravenloft, Nerull could do the same if his avatar was unable to leave.

Of course, that assumes Nerull wants to retrieve his avatar. Perhaps he has some reason to leave it behind and do work for him in the Mists. Then the question would be why the Dark Powers haven't expelled it for exerting divine influence in violation of the unspoken pact.

[alhoon]

Well, it is possible they couldn't. However the would probably be able to form a domain around him. But also, they may not have problems with the avatar being around.

[Mistmaster]

Vecna was demigod and the DP were barely able to hold him. Nerull is far more powerful.
Similar to how someone abusing the horn of Valhalla may lead to the deity showing up, taking the horn and leaving Ravenloft, Nerull could do the same if his avatar was unable to leave.

Of course, that assumes Nerull wants to retrieve his avatar. Perhaps he has some reason to leave it behind and do work for him in the Mists. Then the question would be why the Dark Powers haven't expelled it for exerting divine influence in violation of the unspoken pact.

Well, maybe the Dark Powers are not so omnipotent as they would like us to believe.

[Mephisto of the FoS]

Of course, that assumes Nerull wants to retrieve his avatar. Perhaps he has some reason to leave it behind and do work for him in the Mists.

His Avatar was a bad boy...

No! B-a-d Avatar

[SkiBird]

I'm not to well-versed on Greyhawk lore, but setting Nerull aside for a moment, the subject itself is an interesting one.

Namely, what would happen to an avatar that became separated from their deity by being drawn into Ravenloft?

I mean, on other planes (and campaign settings) an avatar is just that. The manifestation of a deity in bodily form on earth. Not an automaton, but sort of an independent thing that is also simultaneously, although located quite elsewhere, the actual god that caused it to manifest. Sort of a god-by-proxy. Gods can maintain dozens, probably hundreds of avatars in existence at any given time. (2nd edition was explicit with the number, but it escapes me right now. Demigods can maintain X, Lesser Powers can maintain Y, Greater Powers can maintain Z, etc) Each avatar is essentially the deity in question ... but also not. The deity is elswhere, and the avatar is just a manifestation of its power.

What does such a thing become if the connection between the earthly manifestation and the heavenly (extraplanar) consciousness gets separated? Does it become independent? Autonomous? Would the Power in question know about or even be able to monitor what the avatar was up to?

I sort of feel like the Dark Powers would be able to sever that connection. The connection between a deity and its avatar, I mean.

Sort of like if I cloned myself and them sent the clone on a long trip with no way to contact them. Sure, it's essentially me taking the trip, but the not-in-Ravenloft prime-me wouldn't know about any details or what sort of trials and tribulations the stuck-in-Ravenloft clone-me got up to until we found a way to reconnect.

The thought experiment gets weirder when one stretches the amount of time the two are kept apart. Like two organisms that occur on different branches of the evolutionary tree. The farther back something split off — the farther that it became separated from the source — I could imagine an avatar could becoming something ... entirely other.

[The Lesser Evil]

The line in the Mistipedia refers to Nerull's avatar's involvement in the events of Death Ascendant comes from an intro for outlander PCs to the module. Nerull's avatar is overseeing the binding of spirits into blood blades, as a "small portion of a far-reaching plot"- presumably the Grim Harvest and other events leading up to the Requiem. The weird thing is that Nerull's avatar never actually goes to Ravenloft, he's actually working on the prime material world a group of outlander PCs come from. However, as the PCs interfere with his activities, he banishes them to the Demiplane of Dread (entering into the Misty Border and eventually Falkovnia where the main plot of the module really begins). Why Nerull is gathering undead spirits into blood blades on the material plane or why he banishes the PCs to Ravenloft instead of killing them outright is never really explained. It might be more fitting to make this Nerull avatar a manifestation of a Ravenloft version of Nerull (that is, the Mists- perhaps shaped by the will of Nerull's believers in a planar conjunction.) OTOH, a lost Nerull avatar, perhaps one that came with Gundar and his followers when they entered Ravenloft, could be an interesting prospect too.

OOC, a lot of this weirdness is probably just apocryphal anomalies like some of the rest of the module- the male Vistani seer mentioned above for example.

[tomokaicho]

You raise some good points, The Lesser Evil.

Given the facts that you have laid out, I suppose there is no need to square this circle. It sounds like it's just an oddity or error that somehow got through intact through the editing process. There is a lot of weirdness that happened in the latter years of TRS's existence.

[Rock of the Fraternity]

I'm not to well-versed on Greyhawk lore, but setting Nerull aside for a moment, the subject itself is an interesting one.

Namely, what would happen to an avatar that became separated from their deity by being drawn into Ravenloft?

I mean, on other planes (and campaign settings) an avatar is just that. The manifestation of a deity in bodily form on earth. Not an automaton, but sort of an independent thing that is also simultaneously, although located quite elsewhere, the actual god that caused it to manifest. Sort of a god-by-proxy. Gods can maintain dozens, probably hundreds of avatars in existence at any given time. (2nd edition was explicit with the number, but it escapes me right now. Demigods can maintain X, Lesser Powers can maintain Y, Greater Powers can maintain Z, etc) Each avatar is essentially the deity in question ... but also not. The deity is elswhere, and the avatar is just a manifestation of its power.

What does such a thing become if the connection between the earthly manifestation and the heavenly (extraplanar) consciousness gets separated? Does it become independent? Autonomous? Would the Power in question know about or even be able to monitor what the avatar was up to?

I sort of feel like the Dark Powers would be able to sever that connection. The connection between a deity and its avatar, I mean.

Sort of like if I cloned myself and them sent the clone on a long trip with no way to contact them. Sure, it's essentially me taking the trip, but the not-in-Ravenloft prime-me wouldn't know about any details or what sort of trials and tribulations the stuck-in-Ravenloft clone-me got up to until we found a way to reconnect.

The thought experiment gets weirder when one stretches the amount of time the two are kept apart. Like two organisms that occur on different branches of the evolutionary tree. The farther back something split off — the farther that it became separated from the source — I could imagine an avatar could becoming something ... entirely other.

This makes me think of the Church of Bane, which was active in Nova Vaasa at a time the actual Bane was considered to be 'dead' in the Forgotten Realms.
The Gazetteers state that 'the Lawgiver fell silent' during the Grand Conjunction... and Bane was reborn from inside Iyachtu Xvim, his half-fiend son, like a rather gruesome parasitic wasp.
Depending on how the timelines sync up (if they do), is it conceivable that the essence of Bane was trapped in the Demiplane of Dread because his 'death' had left him too weak to escape? But when the Grand Conjunction struck, maybe that same essence escaped and found its way to his son/dupe.

Or maybe the Bane that existed in Nova Vaasa pre-GC really was just a reflection of the true Bane; a pale echo of a true god, incapable of escape under its own power. An offshoot, not unlike an avatar, but incorporeal.
Maybe it broke out and took the place of its actually dead and gone source during the GC?