Lord Soth: Shadow of the Dragon Queen

[Mephisto of the FoS]

I am thinking of buying Dragonlance: Shadow of the Dragon Queen as it could be useful when running the When Black Roses Bloom adventure setting the Dragonlance adventure inside the memory mirrors. Is it any good? Did attack the city of Kalaman too or is this a reboot too having him attack Kalaman instead of Palanthas?

[DustBunny]

I am thinking of buying Dragonlance: Shadow of the Dragon Queen as it could be useful when running the When Black Roses Bloom adventure setting the Dragonlance adventure inside the memory mirrors. Is it any good?

On this I couldn't say sorry, beyond online reviews.

Did attack the city of Kalaman too or is this a reboot too having him attack Kalaman instead of Palanthas?

Kalaman is a separate city state about 2-3 hundred miles east of Palanthas, and was attacked and conquered by the Red Dragon army when Verminaard was still alive. It was later liberated by the Whitestone army when the metallic Dragons returned.

While Soth was aroundat this time, he was serving Kitiara and really didn't give a damn about Takhisis or her plans. Hence I suspect he was included in this campaign for 'name' recognition.

On the other hand - most of the Kalamar events occurred 'off screen' as far as the original books and adventures were concerned, so they could be easily integrated into the War of the Lance timeline. Maybe Kit sent Soth to help out for a bit while she went to the Battle of the High Clerists Tower? (It would also explain why Soth wasn't present at this battle to turn it into a curb stomp instead of a rout).

[Manofevil]

. Maybe Kit sent Soth to help out for a bit while she went to the Battle of the High Clerists Tower? (It would also explain why Soth wasn't present at this battle to turn it into a curb stomp instead of a rout).

Interesting point there. Those who read the Dragonlance gaming module, Dragons of War DL8, would find that there were three possible quest goals for the DM to choose from for the PCs. The first, of course, is them finding and using the Dragon Orb as happened in the books. The second was to reassemble the crown of the last High Clerist of the Solamnic order who died in the Cataclysm, return it to his brow thereby summoning him back to help the knights during the siege, and/or find Khas piece(Krynnish chess, Yarus loved the game) and return it to Yarus' Khas board thereby summoning Virkhus, The Horn of Dawn, last commander of the Tower before the cataclysm, to aid the knights with the siege. I would have loved to have seen a clash between Yarus, Virkhus, and their gathered undead forces on one side against Lord Soth and his undead host on the other. I'd still love to see it.

[Mephisto of the FoS]

I am thinking of buying Dragonlance: Shadow of the Dragon Queen as it could be useful when running the When Black Roses Bloom adventure setting the Dragonlance adventure inside the memory mirrors. Is it any good?

On this I couldn't say sorry, beyond online reviews.

I had a quick view through it and so that it is mostly war related, there is also an expansion edition with a bordgame to make the PC's more involved in "war strategy". Something that resembles the 2e BATTLESYSTEM™ perhaps?

I liked the Fray rule, that means that whoever enters it may take damage from random opponents or even "friendly fire" during the fray of the battle, but I would make it more random than just a save DC to avoid taking damage and I would for sure make it more chaotic in the battlegrounds not just a rectangle "framing" it.

Kalaman is a separate city state about 2-3 hundred miles east of Palanthas, and was attacked and conquered by the Red Dragon army when Verminaard was still alive. It was later liberated by the Whitestone army when the metallic Dragons returned.

I knew that I was just wondering if Sothy was described in the books as taking part in this.

While Soth was aroundat this time, he was serving Kitiara and really didn't give a damn about Takhisis or her plans. Hence I suspect he was included in this campaign for 'name' recognition.
battle to turn it into a curb stomp instead of a rout).

Apparently not...

On the other hand - most of the Kalamar events occurred 'off screen' as far as the original books and adventures were concerned, so they could be easily integrated into the War of the Lance timeline.

Fortunately the city is called Kalaman (not Calamar )

Maybe Kit sent Soth to help out for a bit while she went to the Battle of the High Clerists Tower? (It would also explain why Soth wasn't present at this battle to turn it into a curb stomp instead of a rout).

That sounds like a good explanation but in the end I believe some elements of the adventure could be incorporated inside one of Tindafulus's Memory Mirrors changing the setting to be Palanthas instead of Kalaman, but I believe the rest is useless for When the Black Roses Bloom.

It is safe to say that Shadow of the Dragon Queen has more elements from When the Black Roses Bloom than the other way around (duhh.... decades have passed since WtBRB). The kender vampire appearing in the adventure, the Mirror of Reflected Pasts and the "Visions in Fire" where Cataclysmic fire re-creates tragic scenes from his life all these concepts first appeared in WtBRB.

These scenes from "Visions in Fire" represent Soth's memories of events—re-creating tragic scenes from his life. These scenes represent Soth's memories of events—which don't always match the actual events, while the Mirror of Reflective Pasts reflect events from the creature's past reflected in the mirror's glass. These memories aren't real, but rather idealized versions of those occurrences. (hmmm... this reminds me of something...)

Although only the first of these "Fire Visions" is similar to the illusions of the Ravenloft Memory Mirrors, since some happened later, I believe someone in the team that designed it liked Lisa Smedman's idea.

Leedara, one of the elves that accompanied Isolde is not a banshee but a neutral ghost now helping the PCs. Well this is 5e after all there had to be some inconsistency with the older version (at least the villain/future darklord isn't Lady Soth). So now the dispute between Ravenloft and Dragonlance of where Soth belongs to can expand to the memory mirrors as well. As for the kender vampire it is a different kind of vampire than the ones Lord Soth created in Ravenloft so it is OK (THEY didn't steal that ).

I think I like Caradoc as a possessing ghost.

I believe Shadow of the Dragon Queen could be a nice "side trek campaign" for PC's, making them somehow "hooked" to the memory mirrors. They can continue "living" inside these mirrors and be heroes of Dragonlance, making it easier for them to understand why Soth has been addicted to them and spends so much time in them. In the end all the heroic deeds they make while inside the mirrors are mere illusions. I could go as far as making them lose all experience gained while inside the mirrors when expelled from them, to show this contrast between illusion and reality (they gain XPs only for breaking the circle of Lord Soth's addiction). When they get back inside of the mirrors their illusionary levels are restored, making them also addicted to the mirrors. Thus a DM can make a Dragonlance campaign while the PCs are still in Ravenloft, the Players have to decide if they want to continue the Draonlance campaign knowing that when they decide to continue the Ravenloft campaign they are still the level they were before going inside the mirror, maybe even extremely thirsty, hungry and fatigued as they have spend a lot of time inside the illusionary world of Lord Soth's brain...

X = 0 ???

[DustBunny]

Ahhhh, I see where you are coming from now

Any discrepancies with time/place can be easily waved away as Soths' memory twisting event so he is the 'victorious hero'. So, in the real Krynn, Soth did attack Kalamar as above, but was beaten by the heroes in the Dragon Queen adventure, so he re-creates the memory in the mirrors where he won. As per Black Rose, the PC's must enter the mirror and break the memory (i.e. win the adventure).

As there are multiple mirrors in WtBRB, instead of having different scenarios for each mirror, each mirror is a _chapter_ of Dragon Queen (it has 7). At the completion of each “mirror chapter” Soth awakens a bit as per normal. It also allows the PC to rest/recover/discuss before jumping into the next mirror chapter.

As for not counting their experience, it seems a little unfair, so maybe rebalance the xp gained in mirrorland to be less. Of course, any magical/material toys/reputation they gain won't come back into the real world but will be waiting for them when they return. Hence the temptation to return (instead of 'go away merc scum' from everyone, in mirror land they are greeted as wonderful heroes to whom everyone bows)

It is almost sounding like the Feast of Goblyns/Scaena theatre crossover scenario which was in one of the journals here.
On edit: Yes, Gonzoron's "Twilights Children" campaign

[Mephisto of the FoS]

So, in the real Krynn, Soth did attack Kalamar as above, but was beaten by the heroes in the Dragon Queen adventure, so he re-creates the memory in the mirrors where he won. As per Black Rose, the PC's must enter the mirror and break the memory (i.e. win the adventure).
...each mirror is a _chapter_ of Dragon Queen (it has 7). At the completion of each “mirror chapter” Soth awakens a bit as per normal. It also allows the PC to rest/recover/discuss before jumping into the next mirror chapter.

This is not a bad idea, although there is the problem of why would Soth make a series of mirrors for these chapters. I would probably make the whole or some chapters (probably 4 and onwards) of the Shadow of the Dragon Queen adventure taking place into one mirror, possibly replacing the one with the fantasy tournament as this was pure fiction on Soth's part.

As for not counting their experience, it seems a little unfair, so maybe rebalance the xp gained in mirrorland to be less. Of course, any magical/material toys/reputation they gain won't come back into the real world but will be waiting for them when they return.

Yes punishing the players for their characters addiction is not a really good idea

Hence the temptation to return (instead of 'go away merc scum' from everyone, in mirror land they are greeted as wonderful heroes to whom everyone bows)

Vogler villager NPC: "Brave adventurers the Dragon Army is approaching!"
PCs: 'Go away peasant scum...'

I just thought of the ethics behind the PCs being trapped inside the Memory Mirrors it is similar to the ethics of the Mist Hunters campaign "soul-less" dilemma. If everyone inside the mirror are illusions can the PC's rampage and massacre anyone they want to, since they are illusions? My answer is yes they can but they will face the consequences (power's check or even alignment change) as the evil deeds they do inside the mirrors can corrupt them in real life. Indulging in fantasies of making evil acts inside the mirrors could make them more apathetic to other people's suffering, thus the mirror's can also have a corruptive effect on PC's and thus an epic adventure inside the mirrors is possible.

[Mephisto of the FoS]

Any discrepancies with time/place can be easily waved away as Soths' memory twisting event so he is the 'victorious hero'. So, in the real Krynn, Soth did attack Kalaman as above, but was beaten by the heroes in the Dragon Queen adventure, so he re-creates the memory in the mirrors where he won. As per Black Rose, the PC's must enter the mirror and break the memory (i.e. win the adventure).

The attack on Kalaman happened 6 years before the fall of Palanthas and the Dragonarmies took Kalaman in the War of the Lance. Soth's memory is being victorious because he was, that's why he relives this.
Shadow of the Dragon Queen is probably rebooting Dragonlance history.

In the spring of 351 AC, the Red and Blue Dragonarmies finally began the invasion of Solamnia. The Blue Wing (Kitiara) captured the key port city of Kalaman and then drove deep into Solamnia, overuning the Solamnic provinces of Hinterlund and Nightlund. The Blue Wing then advanced into the Plains of Solamnia, capturing Vingaard Keep, and advancing on the High Clerist Tower, which guarded the land route to the Solamnic capital of Palanthas.

Kalaman was partially destroyed by the Red Dragonarmy following the assaults by several Flying Citadels, though it was liberated by the Golden General (Laurana) and her brother Gilthanas Kanan during the final days of the war.

Following the fall of Kalaman to Whitestone Forces, Soth assisted in the kidnap of Laurana for Kitiara to be used as a pawn for the Dark Queen. In return for his part in the plot, he was promised Laurana's soul following the meeting with the Dark Queen, but in the confusion during the collapse of the Temple of Neraka, Laurana and Tanis Half-Elven managed to escape Soth's clutches. With the Golden General out of the picture, Soth assisted Kitiara in the assassination of the remaining Highlords, allowing Kitiara full control over the remaining Dragonarmies.

The Blue Lady's War in 357 AC is when Kitiara uth Matar laid siege to the city of Palanthas. She attacked the city utilizing a Flying Citadel left over from the War of the Lance. With Draconians raining down upon the streets, and Lord Soth and his Skeletal Warriors cutting a swath of destruction, the grand city fell to its knees.

Kitiara's assault on Palanthas that would coincide with Raistlin's re-entry into Krynn from the Abyss. As part of the assault force, Soth led the banshee elves and skeletal warriors against the gates of Palanthas to assist Kitiara's aerial assault on the city and to exact revenge on the city's citizens for condemning him to death centuries before.

Soth and his minions tore into the city, killing everything in their path until he arrived at the Tower of High Sorcery in Palanthas to find Kitiara dying from lightning bolt cast by Dalamar the Dark. Prevented from taking Kitiara's soul for his own until she was released by Tanis Half-Elven, Soth succeeded in carrying off the body of the only woman he considered his equal after years of burning with jealousy for all her lovers.

[DustBunny]

Yes punishing the players for their characters addiction is not a really good idea

I was thinking more along the lines of a 'pusher' giving free samples. In mirror land they gain full 'mirror xp' but once they return to the real world that xp drops to 1-10% real xp. If they return to the mirror, they regain the full mirror xp and power up again. Sure they get a few scraps in the here and now, but just beyond that shimmering surface is the full deal...

Phantom Mirror Voice:
"It's okay, I understand. You're a low level nobody being beaten up by zombies, hated by superstitious bumpkins, and your greatest deed is clearing tavern cellars of rats? I can help you know. You know I can.

If you just step through, you can be a god again! Think about it.... can you imagine Strahd cowering at your feet? Van Richten on his knees begging you for help to solve a case? Remember how you kicked Lord Soth's butt? Of the adulation of the crowds? Dragons bowing before your might? Of the attractive lords and ladies making _those_ eyes at you?

Don't you just want to experience that again? Don't you just want to feel good, let loose, and have a bit of murderhobo fun? You can always stop whenever you want.... thaaaaat's it....."

I'll stop rambling now and give others a change to speak

[Mephisto of the FoS]

Going back to the incorporation of Shadow of the Dragon Queen to When the Black Roses Bloom I would also change the villain of SotDQ to not be Kansaldi Fire-Eyes but Kitiara Uth Matar, this way players who are unfamiliar with the Dragonlance villains can learn about the extension/volume of Kitiara's evil nature through the mirrors, after all she was the only person(/woman?) Lord Soth saw as an equal to his own evil nature.

Also in 5e Lord Soth is Lawful Evil compared to 2e where he was Chaotic Evil, as far as I am concerned he is Chaotic who behaves like a pseudo-lawful character, talking about the Oath and the Measure when others don't behave as they should, and giving the impression that he is honourable only to change his ways during battle or when it suits him (which makes him Chaotic).

"Est Cadaver oth Nemithas"

[Mistmaster]

My Soth is actually one of the few redeemed Dark lord of the Mistworld; he is currently Lightlord of Sithicus and Lawful Good. (I changed my ideas recently about him)

[Mephisto of the FoS]

Well I am not sure if Shadow of the Dragon Queen is really relevant to When Black Roses Bloom...

In the end of the adventure

VIEW CONTENT:

a Kalaman soldier delivers a message for them, which was left with a guard at Castle Kalaman's gate. The letter is sealed with blue wax bearing the Dragon Queen's symbol. I guess Kitiara Uth Matar appears in the sequel (if there is one)...

[Speedwagon]

You can still use the materials in the game to make it so, Mephisto. The ideas you and DustBunny were bouncing off of one another above were really good and worth using, imo. If anything, while there are some lore discrepancies, at least 5e Dragonlance is relatively faithful. Well, compared to 5e Ravenloft and Spelljammer at least!

[DustBunny]

Also in 5e Lord Soth is Lawful Evil compared to 2e where he was Chaotic Evil, as far as I am concerned he is Chaotic who behaves like a pseudo-lawful character, talking about the Oath and the Measure when others don't behave as they should, and giving the impression that he is honourable only to change his ways during battle or when it suits him (which makes him Chaotic).

In Test of the Twins during the 'pre-time travel' events at the start of the battle of Palanthas, Tanis attacks Soth. Soth then 'power words' Tanis's dragon mount forcing him to fight on foot. But it is mentioned that Soth dismounted for melee combat as the Oath and Measure bound him still. Also from memory, in Spectre of the Black Rose, Inza starts waving around a magic dagger, and Soth laughs saying that using magic means he is allowed to use his own magic according to the Measure.

Whilst I can see that somewhat being from ego (I am a true knight, really! I follow the rules!), a more interesting thing may be to have it as part of his curse. Not a matter of playing pretend with the Oath and forgetting it when conveinent, but something his is compelled to follow. This could give people who meet him a chance to survive provided they know the rules of the Oath and Measure, rather than being blasted out of existence in a nanosecond.

Of course, finding out what the rules are - even if they know what the O & M actually is - would be very very hard.

If anything, while there are some lore discrepancies, at least 5e Dragonlance is relatively faithful. Well, compared to 5e Ravenloft and Spelljammer at least!

For which I am grateful. They are (mostly) staying away from 'updating' the original war of the lance books/modules, and setting things in a secondary location.... so far.

[Mephisto of the FoS]

Whilst I can see that somewhat being from ego (I am a true knight, really! I follow the rules!), a more interesting thing may be to have it as part of his curse. Not a matter of playing pretend with the Oath and forgetting it when convenient, but something his is compelled to follow. This could give people who meet him a chance to survive provided they know the rules of the Oath and Measure, rather than being blasted out of existence in a nanosecond.

Of course, finding out what the rules are - even if they know what the O & M actually is - would be very very hard.

This is a very nice touch, though I like the "Knight Complex" version for mine cause it shows how corrupted and small he is in character. But I am almost compelled to use the "Compelled Knight Curse".

[Rock of the Fraternity]

I like the interpretation that Soth followed the Oath and the Measure because:
A) he wants to show how hollow they could be, since a thing of Evil could follow the rules and still be an unholy terror.
B) he is too proud and stubborn not to uphold the forms he observed in life and risk losing his dignity on top of everything else.
C) he has nothing else left of glory in his existence; he's clutching at the frayed remnants of his knighthood like a child clutching a stuffed toy in the dark.