2nd edition rules question, please help!

[Solan]

Maybe I've simply missed this for all of these years, but I haven't been able to find the answer anywhere. A wizard casting a spell who is hit first will lose the spell, and many spells have a casting time added to the initiative. My question is: Does this apply to spell-like abilities? Does a Molydeus seeking to cast a lightning bolt fail if someone strikes him first? Does a Death Knight using his ability to cast a 20 die fireball have to use the casting time Initiative modifier? Thank you very much, anyone who can clear this up for me.

[Joël of the FoS]

My 2e ref books are far away in a box, but I kinda remember you are right - spell-like ability in 2e is mere mental effort, so it wasn't possible to interrupt it by causing damage.

[IanFordam]

I've always played that innate abilities have a speed factor of zero. Who knows, there might even be support for this in the 2e rules?

[DustBunny]

No interrupts for spell like abilities in 2E
And they have a +3 initiative modifier 'casting time'.

DMG, Chapter 9, Special Attacks
Innate abilities are different from spells in one major way, however. Unlike spells, innate abilities are natural powers and do not require casting times or any components (although there is an initiative modifier), including gestures or words--unless these things are used for dramatic effect. (The monster casually points to the place where his spell will occur and then looks at the party with a wicked smile.) Innate abilities are activated by the merest mental command of the creature.


And expanding a bit....

Players Option:Spells and Magic chapter 3 - Monsters with Spell-like Abilities
Many monsters have the innate ability to use certain spells simply by an act of will. Most extraplanar monsters have an array of spell-like powers as formidable as the spell arsenal of a high-level wizard or priest, sylvan creatures such as dryads or brownies can charm or confuse their opponents, and even dragons have a handful of spell-like abilities based on their color and age. In fact, any monster that can use spell effects without an equivalent wizard or priest character level falls into this category.

Spell-like abilities are invoked by one round of concentration; the monster can do nothing else in that round except use a single power, just like a wizard or priest may only cast one spell per round. All spell-like abilities have an initiative modifier of +3, or fast under Player’s Option: Combat & Tactics rules. Unlike a true spellcaster, a monster with spell-like abilities can’t be interrupted by damage or distraction,if the creature survives the injury, the power functions that round regardless. (However, if a monster has both spell-like abilities and normal spells, any spells it actually casts can be interrupted.)

[alhoon]

Man, I have forgot how needlessly complex 2e was. Never liked it. Only 4e was worse.

[DustBunny]

Man, I have forgot how needlessly complex 2e was. Never liked it. Only 4e was worse.

The power of THAC0 compels you!

[Rock of the Fraternity]

*clicks heels to activate 3e blade boots*
Bring it.

[Solan]

Player's Option, THAT's where it was! A thousand thanks for your wisdom, DustBunny; that question has been bothering me for so many years!

[Five]

Man, I have forgot how needlessly complex 2e was. Never liked it. Only 4e was worse.

I always thought 2E was, by and large, a piecemeal game system. DMs (along with player preferences) added only what they wanted to add in order compliment their game. Hell, every table seemed so unique, so homebrewed, to the point that you couldn't just BECMI a character in under ten minutes and jump right in. It was a bloody study period at times. Heh.

In that regard, yes, it was complex. But to a seasoned table it was no more so than any other version. From my corner of the world anyway.

And, as another crumb from my plate, the Player's Option books were a great source of inspiration for those of us who wanted to really brew the game with crunch. I can only hope that aside from the upcoming PHB, DMG, and MM that something spiritually similar will be released for 5E(+), for the DMs and Players to go through together and Frankenstein their own unique characters/epic tales. And a worldbuilding supplement (not thin-spined) for DMs...but now I'm really reaching

[Solan]

Five, there is a most excellent 2nd Edition Worldbuilding book entitled "World Builder's Guidebook (Advanced Dungeons & Dragons)". It's easily obtainable from Amazon.com or Ebay and nothing about it requires you to be using 2nd edition rules. I highly recommend it for those seeking to create their own D&D world.

[Five]

Thanks man. Yeah, World Builder's Guidebook was a great jumpstart. Of course, after we all took a crack at mashed settings like "The Elven Realms" (pretty much FR, though with its paint scraped and without humans), "Dragonburn" (a peace offering to our one buddy who loved Dragonlance and minotaurs, and at the height of the FR vs. DL "wars" haha), and stuff like that.

I've built up a collection of more than a few worldbuilding books over the years, some better than others. The Gygaxian Fantasy World series (I think that's the proper name) was a pretty good series that stands out right now. It's listed as for d20 but the info is really editionless. I'd suggest anybody looking to build ground-up to check that series out. Good luck finding copies though. Unreal.

There's a few decent ones for 5E too, though not quite worldbuild: City Builder and Comprehensive Guide to Infrastructure (shorter book than City Builder, but a decent enough ledge to freefall from) come to mind right now.

[Five]

Strongholds and Followers is another good supplement for 5E too. Reminiscent of Basic (Expert/Companion/Master) rules D&D. Nice touch. I thought anyway.

[IanFordam]

No interrupts for spell like abilities in 2E
And they have a +3 initiative modifier 'casting time'.

DMG, Chapter 9, Special Attacks
Innate abilities are different from spells in one major way, however. Unlike spells, innate abilities are natural powers and do not require casting times or any components (although there is an initiative modifier), including gestures or words--unless these things are used for dramatic effect. (The monster casually points to the place where his spell will occur and then looks at the party with a wicked smile.) Innate abilities are activated by the merest mental command of the creature.


And expanding a bit....

Players Option:Spells and Magic chapter 3 - Monsters with Spell-like Abilities
Many monsters have the innate ability to use certain spells simply by an act of will. Most extraplanar monsters have an array of spell-like powers as formidable as the spell arsenal of a high-level wizard or priest, sylvan creatures such as dryads or brownies can charm or confuse their opponents, and even dragons have a handful of spell-like abilities based on their color and age. In fact, any monster that can use spell effects without an equivalent wizard or priest character level falls into this category.

Spell-like abilities are invoked by one round of concentration; the monster can do nothing else in that round except use a single power, just like a wizard or priest may only cast one spell per round. All spell-like abilities have an initiative modifier of +3, or fast under Player’s Option: Combat & Tactics rules. Unlike a true spellcaster, a monster with spell-like abilities can’t be interrupted by damage or distraction,if the creature survives the injury, the power functions that round regardless. (However, if a monster has both spell-like abilities and normal spells, any spells it actually casts can be interrupted.)

DustBunny brings the receipts!

Thanks for tracking this down. It's good to know what the rules actually say.

[alhoon]

Strongholds and Followers is another good supplement for 5E too. Reminiscent of Basic (Expert/Companion/Master) rules D&D. Nice touch. I thought anyway.

Never heard of the company that made those. Is it good? It is very expensive for my tastes but through the years I have bought some such supplements and aside of a few good ideas nothing really worked. The E/C/M system was OK, but still not that good.
My own, personal, custom-tailored system from me by me, one that I have been tinkering with for the past 10+ years ... is not complete! I have not managed to find a line that suits me between "Detail" and "playability", i.e. something that works in most cases, can be adjusted for the non-default cases and is supporting the actual game quickly without being bogged down with a lot of rules.
Simply put, such a system is hard to be found. But for the 'early' parts, for manors and villages, the supplement I have out works very well.

[Five]

Is Strongholds and Followers any good?

That's a loaded question really, as it all depends on so many factors.

Let me drop some biases first, followed by a few quick thoughts or opinions:

1. Any pdf that's asking for at least half of the price of a physical book with an equivalent page count is not worth it. Prices of electronic documents have gotten beyond stupid a long time ago, though I can't really blame those behind the charge because people, myself included sometimes, are still buying the file at such a crazy markup.

Strongholds and Followers is pricey, even amongst this trend. Maybe not as bad as WotC, from what I've seen, but it's up there. Piracy will continue because of such greed, and that's a fact. A whisper down on the docks can and will re-balance the universe...if you're into such a thing. For the record, I paid for my copy. But to each their own.

2. The book itself reminds me of old school D&D. In particular BECMI, as I've said. There's certain bits of nostalgia and curiosity behind my "investment". 5E versions of anything old school and my interest peaks. For better and for worse. I can just as easily do most of those upgrades myself, but sometimes I like to gather materials for thought food for a later date. It's kinda cool to have puzzle pieces kicking around, just in case I find myself simultaneously loose scripting and laying infrastructure for a campaign. It's both lazy and time saver.

Strongholds and Followers is such a ready-to-go infrastructure for a campaign. I'm guessing, but it's just about totally useless for one-shot adventures....unless you and your table may enjoy the idea of playing out a given setting's timeline. Like Ravenloft. Each player takes a domain and Dark Lord (not unlike the game Risk) and puts into play the geopolitical (etc) background/timeline specific (and dice-determined) advances of the upcoming campaign. Or something along those lines.

I say this probably because the Demesne Effects, Stronghold Actions, and Class Feature Improvement buffs (all easily modded) remind me of Ravenloft and it Dark Lords...

3. Touched on in #2, Stronghold and Followers has potential for a great injection of fun at the table, but it also has potential to be utterly useless.

Just like BECMI, setting up of PC strongholds and followers is or can be a bit of a chore. It's not really meant to be half-assed. Either the players want to actively rule and be involved in land ownership and all the responsibilities that comes with it or they don't. At all.

S&F could be used as a behind the scenes campaign session break/side trek session, or, as a chance to dust off some old character sheets and put back into play otherwise retired high level characters and see how retirement is treating them.

Or the book is just a series of thought exercises for DMs. A table crack of a joke.

It feels like I'm not answering your question "is it any good?".

It's a solid bunch of ideas of easily-imported infrastructure for a campaign that wants to go down the road less travelled in regards to D&D. As with any book the DM will no doubt impose their creativity on the concepts and suggestions covered. I mean, it comes with the chair, right? But if the table really wants to quit the dungeon crawls and take on, potentially, a whole new game then I would suggest flipping through both this book and its companion: Kingdoms and Warfare.

Like I said, maybe a few sessions to customise Ravenloft's movers and shakers, if you find your players a bit iffish about the ideas of rulership, or you just want to playtest the concepts found between the book's covers.