Heroes of Light.

[Underworld]

I was going to get this book for my group. Does anyone already have this book ? If so, is it any good ? What classes can make use of this book ?

~U

[Joël of the FoS]

There a review of it by Yours Truly, in the FOS review pages.

Joël

[Wiccy of the Fraternity]

Some of the PrC's, feats and so on were good, but I felt that only half of the book at best was really useful. Still an improvement on Champions of Darkness, but not by much.

[Jonathan Winters]

It's OK. Some decent PrClasses... Some good Feats...
But everything else is jus OK not great, in my opinion...

Get Van Richten's Arsenal instead!

If you have everything else already, then it's OK to get it I think.

Champs of Darkness... hum... If you have a completist mentality and want everything...

Patrick

[ScS of the Fraternity]

In my humble opinion, I'd say that you should save your money. The book is cerainly not worth buying until its in the bargin bin - years from now.

The prestige classes are the main feature, and they are quite a disapointment. While classes like scholar, detective and true innocent sound like good classes, they turn out to be of little use. Other classes are marred by strange requirements (nearly everything has base attack bonus +3 or something) or class abilties that break the setting's themes. For example, one class has the power to compell a darklord to appear and fight mano-e-mano - a riddiculous notion for many lords.

The feats are less than inspiring, the NPCs are forgetable, and the notes on running a heroic campaign are nothing that you couldn't get out of the Campaign Setting or a discussion on a message board.

In summary, save you cash.

[Charney]

I agree with ScS and Joël. Some things are worth saving: Detective PrC, Van Richten society and Shi Shuren. The best part are the Wanderer entry by James Lowder.

The rest makes the book less than worth it's cost.

Like ScS said, some class are just plain ridiculous. Like the scholar needing a BaB as prerequisite.

[Mortepierre]

For example, one class has the power to compell a darklord to appear and fight mano-e-mano - a riddiculous notion for many lords.

Actually, I believe this was cleared by Azalin on the Kargatane boards at the time.

First of all, the darklord doesn't have to fight only in melee combat. Nothing prevent him from using Ex/Sp/Su or even plain spells.

Second, the darklord doesn't have to come alone. Summoning Strahd to you for a brawl may seem a good idea till he arrives with a hundred wolves, ten vampire spawns and a dozen other monsters in tow.

Third, the darklord has till the next dawn to reach the paladin. So, it's not like he'll have to drop whatever he is doing and come totally unprepared.

Finally, given how "pure" a Blessed Paladin must remain in order to gain access to that power (and, at the earliest, he'll need to be 14th lvl), achieving the 10th level in that PrC would be akin to a miracle.

Still, I like it. Have you read the story about the Red Wolf in the netbook Book of Shadows? I think that PrC is a perfect fit for his future child .. and about the only thing that could prove the undoing of Nidala's darklord.

EDIT: Oh, aye, and if the darklord is one who cannot move out of his lair, then the Blessed Paladin's special power is wasted. If the DM feels nasty, the BP could be teleported to the darklord instead

[Daisu]

I got heros of light, just to collect it, I think NPCs can still be used, and I have used the feats before.





Think it be hard for the darklord of Bleutspur to arrive in time for mano-e-mano fight, it probly be a huge undertaking. It would be pretty funny to see the paladin challenge the darklord of Rokushima Taiyoo, can see this paladin all prepared for big fight for whatever uber-monster that will come to the challenge, to have a sorrowful geist (maybe geist b more different in 3ed version). Oh then there gywdion, it be intresting if the ability lets him come to the fight, a short fight. I think we could make a list of intresting darklord fights and how bad it will end up being. IE Vald and his army...

[ScS of the Fraternity]

Though the idea of compelling the God brain into a fight is certainly worth a laugh, its not so much the traveling aspect that makes the ability bad.
A fight to the death just is not the style of most darklords. While a guy like Soth would have been a prime candidate, most darklords simply don't do that sort of thing. Even considering the fact that a darklord can muster an army of darkness to precede them, it still vioplates the style of so many Lords. The Final Stand forces Darklords to act in a very particular way, regardless of their character.
Does it make sense for someone manipulative and haughty like Boristi to drop everythign and lead a war party into the boonies to go meet some armoured goon?

What about someone like Strahd? He is the ancient, he is land; yet he remains at the beck and call of some foreigner?

The whole thing smacks of one up-manship. A single PC takes center stage, demotes the other players to spear-carriers and reduces a darklord to just another notch on his scabard.

[Wiccy of the Fraternity]

Last Stand, though it seems powerful, ther are ways for a Dark Lord to elude it, so he (or she) would not appear in person. Azalin could send a horde of walking dead, they are essentially him if he takes control of them, the same goes for Strahd should be send some of his skeletons and zombies. Malocchio I feel would ride off to hunt down this nuisance with a large (and heavily armed) body of men. Gregor Zolnik would descend on the happless paladin with a pack of his boyarski, Mara in the House of Lament would turn the entire house against the paladin in one fell swoop, Juste would probably dream up some deadly play for the paladin to partake in (since his plays are an extension of himself).

Of course, some DL's pose a problem for this ability, but imagine a paladin swarmed by an army of rats, it is something I feel Jacque Renier would do if she was summoned by this ability.

[Charney]

I think the problem with the book and all those delightful possibilities some like Wiccy mentioned is that they are OUR ideas. I mean, Wiccy'S idea of Azalin sending his zombies acting for him wasn't part of the author's idea when he created the power. In a sense, almost the whole book is like that, half-thought idea.

Like the Night lord, it's good for a Darklord like Soth, Drakov and Strahd but useless for all the other. THe BP simply works for powergamers wanting to kill one darklord at a time. Like if they were the big monster at the end of a stage in Castlevania.

[Mortepierre]

I think the problem with the book and all those delightful possibilities some like Wiccy mentioned is that they are OUR ideas. I mean, Wiccy'S idea of Azalin sending his zombies acting for him wasn't part of the author's idea when he created the power. In a sense, almost the whole book is like that, half-thought idea.

True on that count. That book isn't for DM who lack imagination.

Like the Night lord, it's good for a Darklord like Soth, Drakov and Strahd but useless for all the other. THe BP simply works for powergamers wanting to kill one darklord at a time. Like if they were the big monster at the end of a stage in Castlevania.

I don't think a powergamer could pull it off. Paladins in RL have already a tough time. Blessed Paladins are even worse, and it's not like you get the Last Stand simply for taking a level in that PrC. No, you need to go all the way.

Personally, I think it can work great if your campaign involves trying to "free" a domain from its darklord. Clearly, it would be an epic end in some case (Azalin, Strahd, etc..) but it can be done. At the very least it gives the players a tiny chance of success. Confronting a darklord in his lair is usually a suicide. Getting him to come where you want him means evening the odds slightly.

The Knight of the Shadow PrC has a similar long-term goal after all.

Plus, I don't see how having one player with the Last Stand ability would reduce the others to the rank of spectators. No Blessed Paladin with an Int score above 3 would dream of fighting a darklord alone. Indeed, a final battle against a darklord should be the goal of an entire team.

While I am against scenarii who pit the players repeatedly against various darklords, I am not against a string of scenarii whose (very) final encounter gives them a chance to destroy ONE darklord.

[Daisu]

Well i seen Ravenloft played at its worse, powergamming through the roof and just fighting the darklord as just a stop on the road. There are many styles of playing ravenloft and i seen plenty of them, the stuff we may not like would be cup of tea to others.
I think the one ability reminds me much about Highlander, maybe thats what they had in mind...

[Arif Sayeed]

I think they should've given the Paladin an actual reality wrinkle instead of the whole "Final Stand" or whatever that is. It would have the benefit of causing the darklord to become immediately concerned (if he or she wasn't already) with the paladin's presence in her domain, without making one PC the hero and reducing the other PCs and the darklord to orbitting around the paladin.

[Mortepierre]

without making one PC the hero and reducing the other PCs and the darklord to orbitting around the paladin.

Again, I don't see how the Last Stand ability would make the Blessed Paladin the sole "hero" of the campaign and/or reduce every other character, darklord included, to "orbit" him.

It's an ability that the BP will use at best once in his career, probably with lethal result for himself. If we were back in 2E, then yes, it could be used several times to destroy darklords that were weaklings back then but, nowadays, no darklord can be considered "weak" anymore. So, one use is what you'll get out of it.

Moreover, to gain it, the BP will have to sweat his way across all 10 levels of a particularly difficult PrC (assuming the DM doesn't allow him to bypass the "blessed" requirement)

Finally, as I stated before, NO BP stands a chance using it all alone. Fact is, it would require a whole team agreeing to take on the local darklord. Probably a decision taken early on in their career and one which will force ALL members of the team to become the best in their chosen field.

Yes, the BP will have his dramatic moment when HE gets to summon the darklord, but all the members of his adventuring team will be required to deal with the consequences of that single "heroic" act. And, if they succeed, they will ALL be heroes.