The Sorcerer

[Gemathustra]

just b/c something can be played poorly doesn't mean that it is poor.

Giving a fighter a sword that does 20d20 damage but saying well what if the fighter never uses it so it isn't broken is a dumb argument.

You have to assume that all things are played equally well in order to determine balance.

That is perhaps the most sage piece of advice I have read in this thread.

[alhoon]

I think that Sorcerers would have d6 for hit points and access to feats that give them more spells known.

HA ! ! !

As I have predicted, I found a dragon magazine (the one with the Mordenkainen's art of war) that has feats that according to bloodline, give sorcerers an extra spell/ spell lvl!

[alhoon]

To those that have complete Arcane:
Compare the Warmage with the Sorcerer! The warmage class, while not as versalite as the wizard (so less powerful than the wizard class in the higher levels) is a playable class, far more powerful than the sorcerer.

To those that don't have complete Arcane:
The warmage is like the sorcerer (spontaneously casting the same spells per day) but:
- Has about 8 - 10 spells known in most spell levels, but these spells are a set list. Downside: There are all damaging/debilating spells. The warmage doesn't even has mage armor, invisibility or stoneskin.
- Every 3 levels he learns a new spell that can be drawn from the wizard's spell list.
- Gets bonus metamagic feats, but he doesn't choose them. They are useful feats however, feats that help his spells become more deadly.
- Has d6 hit points
- Can use light armor without arcane failure
- Can use all simple weapons.
- He gets some spells (like ice storm and fire shield) at a lower spell level.

[Stygian Inquirer]

I have been following this thread for a while and I must say that one key point has yet to be mentioned. (BTW if it has already been mentioned and I missed it, I apologize.)

Sorcerers can learn spells that are not on the sorcerer/wizard spell list.
This can make the character much more versatile. Sorcerer with fireball and cure light wounds anyone?

[Charlatan]

Um, that's news to me. If true, I think that might indeed make up for any of the Sorcerer's other shortcomings. However, outside of the novel Death of a Darklord, when has this ever been stated?

[alhoon]

sorcerer casts arcane spells which are drawn primarily from the sorcerer/wizard spell list.

These new spells can be common spells chosen from the sorcerer/wizard spell list, or they can be unusual spells that the sorcerer has gained some understanding of by study.

The 3.5 PHB states that the spells a sorcerer can cast are from the Wizard/Sorcerer list, or spells the sorcerer researches on his own.
If a sorcerer can research an arcane version of Cure Light Wounds, then a wizard can research that too!

[Wiccy of the Fraternity]

The 3.5 PHB states that the spells a sorcerer can cast are from the Wizard/Sorcerer list, or spells the sorcerer researches on his own.
If a sorcerer can research an arcane version of Cure Light Wounds, then a wizard can research that too!

I don't see why not, I would let them research such spells, but they would be different to the divine forms of the spells. Clerics and Druids are bestowed this healing power from deities and forces of nature, so I would see a arcane spell caster suffering some penalty when they cast these spells.

For instance, a sorcerer somehow comes up with an arcane Cure Light Wounds, it works just like the divine spell, except when he casts i, he suffers some penalty, like a temporary loss of 1 point of strength of constitution.

Mass Cure Light Wounds may inflict a drain of 1 point for each target of the spell.

Cure moderate may drain 2 points, Cure Mass Moderate 1d2 per target, Cure Serious 1d2+1 points, Cure Critical 1d4 points, etc.

If a arcane spell caster somehow managed to master an arcane version of Heal, he may find that casting the spell reduces one of his ability scores to half its normal value or deal some ill effect to him, like draining half his hit points from his current total.

Divine magic has divine intervention, so spells that would normally be divine only I would allow arcane casters to research or study, but casting them would have some ill effect on the caster. The same would be for divine casters gaining access to some divine variant of a arcane spell.

[alhoon]

Yes, that's true, but the point wasn't if an arcane caster could find a way to cast a cure light wounds spell.
If a sorcerer can cast it, then a wizard can cast it too.

[Wiccy of the Fraternity]

Oops sorry, I forgot to add that a wizard would certainly be able to research such a spell as well, given enough time. My mind isn't with it today, having spent four hours working on a portrait I hve been asked to draw.

[Stygian Inquirer]

To those that have complete Arcane:
Compare the Warmage with the Sorcerer! The warmage class, while not as versalite as the wizard (so less powerful than the wizard class in the higher levels) is a playable class, far more powerful than the sorcerer...

The warmage is like the sorcerer (spontaneously casting the same spells per day)...

Every 3 levels he learns a new spell that can be drawn from the wizard's spell list.

Correct me if I am wrong but can't a Warmage only choose Evocation spells from the Wizard/Sorcerer Spell List as bonus spells?

Also, the Warmage has to prepare his spells like a cleric if I am not mistaken.

I am not arguing that the combat ability and such that you get with the Warmage is not nice, but all I am saying, is that a Sorcerer has a distinct feel and its characteristics allow it to be a fun role-playing opportunity for the players (especially those with chaotic personalities).

[alhoon]

Correct me if I am wrong but can't a Warmage only choose Evocation spells from the Wizard/Sorcerer Spell List as bonus spells?

OUCH! ! !
You're right! : So there flies out the window the fly spell for the warmage. And the invisibility. And the Stoneskin.
A 6th level character would only have 1 extra spell known from his 6th level character feat. Not three as I believed.
Not to mention problem-solving spells like teleport.
Warmage is just a damaging spell machine. Thankfully he still has gust of wind and Tenser's floating disk.
Perhaps the class is balanced that way, but who would like to play such a mage?
Anyway he make a decent NPC opponent for blasting sessions (along with a few potions of spells he will never cast)

Also, the Warmage has to prepare his spells like a cleric if I am not mistaken.

I am not arguing that the combat ability and such that you get with the Warmage is not nice, but all I am saying, is that a Sorcerer has a distinct feel and its characteristics allow it to be a fun role-playing opportunity for the players (especially those with chaotic personalities).

Unlike a cleric or a wizard, a warmage need not prepare his spells in advance.

Somewhere however it states that to gain his spells he has to meditate for an hour. He doesn't just wake and start throwing fireballs.

Also it seems the warmage is just that a war mage. Just nice combat ability and nothing else.

[Stygian Inquirer]

Also, the Warmage has to prepare his spells like a cleric if I am not mistaken.

Unlike a cleric or a wizard, a warmage need not prepare his spells in advance.

Somewhere however it states that to gain his spells he has to meditate for an hour. He doesn't just wake and start throwing fireballs.

Also it seems the warmage is just that a war mage. Just nice combat ability and nothing else.

My bad , I thought they did need to prepare their spells because of the class description:

Warmages do not need to study spellbooks, but they do need to prepare their spells each day by spending time to call up the knowledge from their unconscious minds.

[VAN]

Perhaps the class is balanced that way, but who would like to play such a mage?

ME!

I have never played a wizard/sorcerrer before and I did enjoy it very much. I'm planning to get used to play warmages! They are exactly how I want, they throw 1000 battle spells and they do nothing more. It's sounds a bit odd, but I like it!

[VAN]

This is alhoon:
Find a warmage then, VAN. You think there are many Warmages in Ravenloft? There aren't even enough wizards there!