Back to Wizards of the Coast?
- tec-goblin
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Back to Wizards of the Coast?
I was thinking of it: Ravenloft currently is a low cost line which provides some income to White Wolf. But for how long? When a new WoD Dark Ages line would hit the streets, White Wolf would have two “medieval personal horror roleplaying games”. Quite a few players would buy many books from both lines.
Let’s face it: each Ravenloft DM means for White Wolf about 2 books sold every year. With a new WoD Dark Ages line on the streets, it also probably means 0-4 less Dark Ages books sold every year. And about 2 more books for WotC (consider it: many of us RL DMs buy books like Libris Mortis, PHB, Complete Adventurer, Unearthed Arcana etc – I would like to see your opinions and personal experience on it).
So White Wolf, in about 1.5 year will have much less drive to continue this line. (All this by supposing that in about 1-1.5 years a new WoD Dark Ages line hits the streets. If this doesn’t happen, much of the reasoning of this post becomes invalid.)
Doomed and sad? Well, not necessarily. Let’s look at the other side: WotC. WotC will have the license back and may continue the line. Of course, this has many pros and cons.
Starting with the disadvantages:
1) WotC already has Eberron, FR and the modern lines on the street. Multibranding is considered bad idea since TSR’s fallout. Adding a new line is extremely difficult.
2) Ravenloft is a niche product by Wizards’ standards. Wizards’ doesn’t support niche products.
3) Some of the old RL players may switch to other Wizards’ d20 games anyway.
Particularly points 1 and 2 are very strong. Let’s see whether there are considerable advantages:
1) If the RL line stops, many of us may switch to the very similar new WoD. Let’s face it: the new werewolf is much less epic and more about personal horror (does it remind you of many RL lycanthrope characters?), Vampire is much claustrophobic – each city is much like a domain in which you are trapped. I am tempted to play the new WoD (probably with d20 rules, but anyway). That means less PHB and other d20 products’ sales. And stronger position for the opposition.
2) Ravenloft is already an established product – it doesn’t need much costly promotion – just enough promotion and new “features” to persuade people go back to it and new d20 players to consider playing. Of course, these new “features” may make it a bit more player-friendly, but, anyway, 3E Ravenloft is much less of a sadistic weekend-in-hell than previous RL editions.
3) D20 modern hasn’t an established Campaign Setting. Urban Arcana wasn’t much successful (I think it is as much a niche market as RL is) and that’s why it’s not supported with new books. Ravenloft (or perhaps Masque of the Red Death) could become one d20 modern campaign setting, now that d20 Past provides the necessary rules for d20 modern to emulate 1400+ eras (CL 8-9 domains at least).
Hey! I hear someone shouting here! RL in d20 Modern?
Let’s see a possible way to handle this:
• 3 hardcover books each year – less than Eberron and a bit less than FR, as much as d20 Modern’s books. For the first year, one of the three will be a core rulebook, for the next years, one of the three could be a book about Masques and other campaign possibilities (a Masque in Eberron?), making the line’s books usable by GMs who play anything from FR to 21th century d20 modern games. It’s easy to fill the other 2 books with interesting stuff, both crunch and fluff
• Nice artwork of course – don’t forget that Talon’s drawing in color, too
• Rules will be in d20 Modern (enhancing Modern’s sales), but the rules and choices of feat lists can make almost all d20 feat and prestige classes viable. Some conversion guidelines about Defense Bonuses are needed, but the thing is possible without much overhead (I’ve done it IMC). In the first rulebook, or even in the web site, lists of which Prestige Classes in already published 3.5 d20 products could be used with little conversion would become very useful (Streetifghter, dread pirate and true necromancer come to mind, but there are dozens of them – but we have some issues with sneak attack here!). This could happen even with MMs! In that way, both lines gain sales
• Stats for NPCs will be in Modern, but it’s quite easy to use old Arhaus’ published NPCs without conversion, at least temporarily: after all, an attack bonus is always an attack bonus, an AC always an AC and skills are always identical. RL isn’t much high-magic, so issues of play balance will rarely arise. In that way, they won’t have to reprint everything – they can provide new material.
• Emphasis is given in more culturally advanced domains – at least for player characters home bases. Maybe they could use MotRD instead of normal Ravenloft as the core campaign setting.
So, as players and GMs, what would we lose?:
• Some of the coherence of the world probably – WotC will have it more easy to use some prestige classes and material from books which are not exactly in the RL mindset.
• Less new material (about 150 pages per year), many conversions. Hey, all 3E RL was about this anyway!
• Less support for culturally inadvanced domains: it’s quite difficult to create decent and balanced PCs from domains like Har’ Akir in d20 modern. Well, anyway, I would like to see how many of you often create PCs from CL 1-6 domains… (Personally, I never had a player with PC raised in anything less than CL 7 ).
• Having to buy 0-2 d20 Modern books. I remind you that all d20 Modern rules (even from supplements) are in the Modern SRD, which you can freely download from WotC website.
What would we gain?:
• Web enhancements and errata!! Wow, wow, cheers!! Finally!
• Official internet support, art galleries on line, lovely layout and hardback books.
• No delays of books, more players due to better promotion.
• Better play balance and incorporation with other d20 supplements.
• A system better suited for homo universalis characters – more skill driven and less combat oriented than standard d20.
Of course, all this is probably just wishful thinking…
Let’s face it: each Ravenloft DM means for White Wolf about 2 books sold every year. With a new WoD Dark Ages line on the streets, it also probably means 0-4 less Dark Ages books sold every year. And about 2 more books for WotC (consider it: many of us RL DMs buy books like Libris Mortis, PHB, Complete Adventurer, Unearthed Arcana etc – I would like to see your opinions and personal experience on it).
So White Wolf, in about 1.5 year will have much less drive to continue this line. (All this by supposing that in about 1-1.5 years a new WoD Dark Ages line hits the streets. If this doesn’t happen, much of the reasoning of this post becomes invalid.)
Doomed and sad? Well, not necessarily. Let’s look at the other side: WotC. WotC will have the license back and may continue the line. Of course, this has many pros and cons.
Starting with the disadvantages:
1) WotC already has Eberron, FR and the modern lines on the street. Multibranding is considered bad idea since TSR’s fallout. Adding a new line is extremely difficult.
2) Ravenloft is a niche product by Wizards’ standards. Wizards’ doesn’t support niche products.
3) Some of the old RL players may switch to other Wizards’ d20 games anyway.
Particularly points 1 and 2 are very strong. Let’s see whether there are considerable advantages:
1) If the RL line stops, many of us may switch to the very similar new WoD. Let’s face it: the new werewolf is much less epic and more about personal horror (does it remind you of many RL lycanthrope characters?), Vampire is much claustrophobic – each city is much like a domain in which you are trapped. I am tempted to play the new WoD (probably with d20 rules, but anyway). That means less PHB and other d20 products’ sales. And stronger position for the opposition.
2) Ravenloft is already an established product – it doesn’t need much costly promotion – just enough promotion and new “features” to persuade people go back to it and new d20 players to consider playing. Of course, these new “features” may make it a bit more player-friendly, but, anyway, 3E Ravenloft is much less of a sadistic weekend-in-hell than previous RL editions.
3) D20 modern hasn’t an established Campaign Setting. Urban Arcana wasn’t much successful (I think it is as much a niche market as RL is) and that’s why it’s not supported with new books. Ravenloft (or perhaps Masque of the Red Death) could become one d20 modern campaign setting, now that d20 Past provides the necessary rules for d20 modern to emulate 1400+ eras (CL 8-9 domains at least).
Hey! I hear someone shouting here! RL in d20 Modern?
Let’s see a possible way to handle this:
• 3 hardcover books each year – less than Eberron and a bit less than FR, as much as d20 Modern’s books. For the first year, one of the three will be a core rulebook, for the next years, one of the three could be a book about Masques and other campaign possibilities (a Masque in Eberron?), making the line’s books usable by GMs who play anything from FR to 21th century d20 modern games. It’s easy to fill the other 2 books with interesting stuff, both crunch and fluff
• Nice artwork of course – don’t forget that Talon’s drawing in color, too
• Rules will be in d20 Modern (enhancing Modern’s sales), but the rules and choices of feat lists can make almost all d20 feat and prestige classes viable. Some conversion guidelines about Defense Bonuses are needed, but the thing is possible without much overhead (I’ve done it IMC). In the first rulebook, or even in the web site, lists of which Prestige Classes in already published 3.5 d20 products could be used with little conversion would become very useful (Streetifghter, dread pirate and true necromancer come to mind, but there are dozens of them – but we have some issues with sneak attack here!). This could happen even with MMs! In that way, both lines gain sales
• Stats for NPCs will be in Modern, but it’s quite easy to use old Arhaus’ published NPCs without conversion, at least temporarily: after all, an attack bonus is always an attack bonus, an AC always an AC and skills are always identical. RL isn’t much high-magic, so issues of play balance will rarely arise. In that way, they won’t have to reprint everything – they can provide new material.
• Emphasis is given in more culturally advanced domains – at least for player characters home bases. Maybe they could use MotRD instead of normal Ravenloft as the core campaign setting.
So, as players and GMs, what would we lose?:
• Some of the coherence of the world probably – WotC will have it more easy to use some prestige classes and material from books which are not exactly in the RL mindset.
• Less new material (about 150 pages per year), many conversions. Hey, all 3E RL was about this anyway!
• Less support for culturally inadvanced domains: it’s quite difficult to create decent and balanced PCs from domains like Har’ Akir in d20 modern. Well, anyway, I would like to see how many of you often create PCs from CL 1-6 domains… (Personally, I never had a player with PC raised in anything less than CL 7 ).
• Having to buy 0-2 d20 Modern books. I remind you that all d20 Modern rules (even from supplements) are in the Modern SRD, which you can freely download from WotC website.
What would we gain?:
• Web enhancements and errata!! Wow, wow, cheers!! Finally!
• Official internet support, art galleries on line, lovely layout and hardback books.
• No delays of books, more players due to better promotion.
• Better play balance and incorporation with other d20 supplements.
• A system better suited for homo universalis characters – more skill driven and less combat oriented than standard d20.
Of course, all this is probably just wishful thinking…
BEAUTIFUL IS!
CHAOS
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IS TO NOTICE
MOST THE OF.
CHAOS
too DIM MJLTIVERSE
IS TO NOTICE
MOST THE OF.
- tec-goblin
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- Igor the Henchman
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RL produced by WotC? That would kill Ravenloft pretty surely, the way I see it.
My reasoning: Wizards is a big company that, in order to survive, must produce "sure bets" to the exclusion of everything else. Any setting they produce must be carefully tentacle-selected and go through a series of revisions and market research comparisions. Same thing with general D&D supplements.
Ravenloft has always depended on its mood and originality. With its emphasis on subtle horror, psychological development and complex power struggles, its whole concept lies in that only some of the gamers will be able to grasp it. It is adressed to people like us, who like to, once in a while, think outside the standard D&D window.
Would WotC support a setting like that? Not without a few major revisions in setting policy. Such a new-and-improved Ravenloft would have to be approved by the most dumb and tasteless judge there is: the majority. As it is now, Ravenloft would be judged as a desaster by most marketing surveys: most products feature an unhealthy lack of "crunch" material, too much material geared solely towards flavor, and far from enough feats, spells, monsters and prestige classes, the Great Four of WotC.
But to survive, the fantasy realm must constantly innovate, and that, unfortunately, means taking risks. WotC thought of that too, hence the free OGL licence. In making it, they ensured that there would be a constant, legally independant engine of creation that's willing to take risks the company itself wouldn't dream of tolerating. The independant d20 market. That's the place you go to when you need that elusive original "something" that, while not being met with success with everybody around, keeps the game from stagnating.
And I personally find that Ravenloft fits rather well in that milieu.
As for the Dark Ages concern, do remember it doesn't fill the same niche as Ravenloft at all. For one thing, you don't play monsters in Ravenloft. There's a greater variety in term of nasty creatures and creative foes. And, most importantly, its still a game of dwarf fighters, elven sorcerers and ranger/clerics of classic D&D.
Also remember that the two settings target distinct sorts of customers: WoD and D&D players respectively. Most players choose either of these two systems and stick to it (with just an occasional indulgement in the other, for variety's sake). Take me as an example. If Ravenloft went *poof* tomorrow, I don't think I'd turn to WoD. I'd stick with my existing RL books or make a gothic horror setting of my own to satisfy my horror D&D urges. One regular customer lost for WW.
Frankly, I like to hope that two closely related setting can still coexist harmoniously in the roleplaying market. If they couldn't, Midnight would have strangled Ravenloft to death (or vice versa) three times over by now.
My reasoning: Wizards is a big company that, in order to survive, must produce "sure bets" to the exclusion of everything else. Any setting they produce must be carefully tentacle-selected and go through a series of revisions and market research comparisions. Same thing with general D&D supplements.
Ravenloft has always depended on its mood and originality. With its emphasis on subtle horror, psychological development and complex power struggles, its whole concept lies in that only some of the gamers will be able to grasp it. It is adressed to people like us, who like to, once in a while, think outside the standard D&D window.
Would WotC support a setting like that? Not without a few major revisions in setting policy. Such a new-and-improved Ravenloft would have to be approved by the most dumb and tasteless judge there is: the majority. As it is now, Ravenloft would be judged as a desaster by most marketing surveys: most products feature an unhealthy lack of "crunch" material, too much material geared solely towards flavor, and far from enough feats, spells, monsters and prestige classes, the Great Four of WotC.
But to survive, the fantasy realm must constantly innovate, and that, unfortunately, means taking risks. WotC thought of that too, hence the free OGL licence. In making it, they ensured that there would be a constant, legally independant engine of creation that's willing to take risks the company itself wouldn't dream of tolerating. The independant d20 market. That's the place you go to when you need that elusive original "something" that, while not being met with success with everybody around, keeps the game from stagnating.
And I personally find that Ravenloft fits rather well in that milieu.
As for the Dark Ages concern, do remember it doesn't fill the same niche as Ravenloft at all. For one thing, you don't play monsters in Ravenloft. There's a greater variety in term of nasty creatures and creative foes. And, most importantly, its still a game of dwarf fighters, elven sorcerers and ranger/clerics of classic D&D.
Also remember that the two settings target distinct sorts of customers: WoD and D&D players respectively. Most players choose either of these two systems and stick to it (with just an occasional indulgement in the other, for variety's sake). Take me as an example. If Ravenloft went *poof* tomorrow, I don't think I'd turn to WoD. I'd stick with my existing RL books or make a gothic horror setting of my own to satisfy my horror D&D urges. One regular customer lost for WW.
Frankly, I like to hope that two closely related setting can still coexist harmoniously in the roleplaying market. If they couldn't, Midnight would have strangled Ravenloft to death (or vice versa) three times over by now.
Last edited by Igor the Henchman on Sun Mar 13, 2005 2:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
- Dimitri Mazieres
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I feel that your suggestions, while well-meaning, would cause too much trouble and be too messy to be implemented. Ravenloft, as you say, is a niche market, and I think that making the transition to another ruleset, however similar, wouldn't be profitable: i.e. releasing another set of core books, which undoubtably would cause some complaints from old fans who would feel cheated for having to buy those updated rules AGAIN. Moreover since the actual rules are quite adequate.
Just my two cents
Just my two cents
[i]"Many point out that this battle against the darkness is an impossible one, and they may well be right. Impossible or not, however, the battle for righteousness is one that only a few heroes are brave enough to undertake"[/i]
- sabbattack
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File Goblin:
Your question is really well-put, although you tend to forget one main problem. Witc has drawn a really tight red line over censorship the last years, and it's getting nastier by the year. Rloft in its current form is 120% "for mature readers only" for the wotc standards. Imagine this particular dilemma:
"make Rloft an accessible d20(or modern) setting like Eberron by completely nerfing it or create the next "book of icky vile darkness", thus condemning Rloft to a serious change from subtle, mental horror to tons of disgusting/pulp/stupid horrors?"
You have to excuse me but I can't answer your question right now. Patra city has melt my mental abilities to the minimum!!! Lololol
Kalo karnabali reeeeeeeee!!!
Your question is really well-put, although you tend to forget one main problem. Witc has drawn a really tight red line over censorship the last years, and it's getting nastier by the year. Rloft in its current form is 120% "for mature readers only" for the wotc standards. Imagine this particular dilemma:
"make Rloft an accessible d20(or modern) setting like Eberron by completely nerfing it or create the next "book of icky vile darkness", thus condemning Rloft to a serious change from subtle, mental horror to tons of disgusting/pulp/stupid horrors?"
You have to excuse me but I can't answer your question right now. Patra city has melt my mental abilities to the minimum!!! Lololol
Kalo karnabali reeeeeeeee!!!
Beauty is in the [i]eye[/i] of the Beholder. Everything else is in its stomach....
I always respected [b]Fixxxer[/b], so I proudly present you [url=http://www.dndarchive.com]his own DnD site[/url]!!
I always respected [b]Fixxxer[/b], so I proudly present you [url=http://www.dndarchive.com]his own DnD site[/url]!!
- Cole Deschain
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- Manofevil
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Back to Wizards!!! ASAP!!! For one simple reason: MORE NOVELS!!! I've always felt that RavenLoft, like DragonLance before it, is better driven by novels than by source materials. We receive all these materials outlining classes and feats and whatnot, but they lose a lot of their alure when we don't have the novels to properly showcase examples of them. Back to Wizards if only for novels.
Do us a favor Luv, Stick yer 'ead in a bucket a kick it!
So, gentlemen, that's how it is. Until Grissome.... resurfaces, I'm the acting president, and I say starting with this... anniversary festival, we run this city into the ground! :D
So, gentlemen, that's how it is. Until Grissome.... resurfaces, I'm the acting president, and I say starting with this... anniversary festival, we run this city into the ground! :D
- tec-goblin
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Wizards has swifted a bit away from much crunchy books: look at the new prc format - it's excellent for Ravenloft (rules+much background+a sample character, more here: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=391615 ). Look at Races of the Wild or Shining South: 80% fluff, 20% rules. d20, after the Complete books has almost all the rules it needs, so focus swifts back to background stories.Igor the Henchman wrote: Would WotC support a setting like that? Not without a few major revisions in setting policy. Such a new-and-improved Ravenloft would have to be approved by the most dumb and tasteless judge there is: the majority. As it is now, Ravenloft would be judged as a desaster by most marketing surveys: most products feature an unhealthy lack of "crunch" material, too much material geared solely towards flavor, and far from enough feats, spells, monsters and prestige classes, the Great Four of WotC.
What? Ok, look at my gaming group!As for the Dark Ages concern, do remember it doesn't fill the same niche as Ravenloft at all. For one thing, you don't play monsters in Ravenloft.
How many of these have you found in the last 2 books of RL line? Let's face it: RL has shifted away from the "gothic D&D" standards - it's more WoD than ever.There's a greater variety in term of nasty creatures and creative foes. And, most importantly, its still a game of dwarf fighters, elven sorcerers and ranger/clerics of classic D&D.
I would probably create d20 Vampire. That means that I would buy both Vampire and d20 books. Ie, no, WW wouldn't lose any sales from my part.Also remember that the two settings target distinct sorts of customers: WoD and D&D players respectively. Most players choose either of these two systems and stick to it (with just an occasional indulgement in the other, for variety's sake). Take me as an example. If Ravenloft went *poof* tomorrow, I don't think I'd turn to WoD. I'd stick with my existing RL books or make a gothic horror setting of my own to satisfy my horror D&D urges. One regular customer lost for WW.
Midnight hasn't any success here in my gaming community, so I don't have such an image. Actually, Midnight does NOT survive in my gaming community.Frankly, I like to hope that two closely related setting can still coexist harmoniously in the roleplaying market. If they couldn't, Midnight would have strangled Ravenloft to death (or vice versa) three times over by now.
Last edited by tec-goblin on Mon Mar 14, 2005 3:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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- tec-goblin
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Well, this is interesting. IMO, WotC is more free with gaming content than in previous editions: look at MM - it has 3 fully naked women. Look at Libris Mortis: not provided as "for mature minds only", but still sick!sabbattack wrote: "make Rloft an accessible d20(or modern) setting like Eberron by completely nerfing it or create the next "book of icky vile darkness", thus condemning Rloft to a serious change from subtle, mental horror to tons of disgusting/pulp/stupid horrors?"
You have to excuse me but I can't answer your question right now. Patra city has melt my mental abilities to the minimum!!! Lololol
Kalo karnabali reeeeeeeee!!!
I don't think RL is in many ways 18+. Gaz 5 has only the vile act of S. Legacy of Blood isn't much evil. Ok, of course WotC will have to do some nerfing (I talked about 3 hardcover books per year: well, it's pretty reasonable that 1/3 will have the "for mature minds only tag" - which guarantees increased sales if you think of BoVD and BoED!!). I believe the current WotC policy can handle this without shifting much to "disgusting/pulp/stupid horror".
Be careful: I said "much"
Good celebrating!
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- tec-goblin
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- Jack of Tears
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re
>>Frankly, I like to hope that two closely related setting can still coexist harmoniously in the roleplaying market. If they couldn't, Midnight would have strangled Ravenloft to death (or vice versa) three times over by now.<<
Perhaps, but Midnight is almost nothing like Ravenloft. Sure it is about woe, suffering and personal sacrifice ... but it isn't gothic and it isn't horror. Midnight is Middle Earth, even if Sauron won and the lands of man are dying, it still feels far more epic than Ravenloft ... I cannot see these two competing too hard for the same crowd.
Perhaps, but Midnight is almost nothing like Ravenloft. Sure it is about woe, suffering and personal sacrifice ... but it isn't gothic and it isn't horror. Midnight is Middle Earth, even if Sauron won and the lands of man are dying, it still feels far more epic than Ravenloft ... I cannot see these two competing too hard for the same crowd.
- Joël of the FoS
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