Timor Gazetteer

[Tobias Blackburn]

Okay, my Internet was down yesterday so I'm late in replying. This will be my final post on the subject as this discussion has run its course and is threatening to become less of a discussion and more of an argument (which is really not fair to Tobias who is making some excellent points but is simply outgunned as everyone is on the other side, and arguments like that always seem like persecution).

Okay, rant aside:

* I concede that a Path, while cool, would take too long. I rescind my idea to include it as a sidebar.

* Power checks are still the best method, but we should restrict them to acts that cause fear. That works with the theme of the domain.
You NEED to be able to roll. Having a time limit doesn't help. It simply does not. It could be six hours or sixteen, there still HAS to be a random chance for success or failure. Otherwise we're introducing a rule that requires DM adjunction. For good DMs who work with their players this is not a problem, but for good DMs you really need a rule book the size of a pamphlet. You make rules for bad DMs to keep them honest and things fair.

The Borders don't require a roll, and those that do are not save and you completely avoid it.

Anything we add will require DM's to take on more rules. Should we not add any plants or creatures any more? This requires no more of a DM than a regular power check.

* One to Six hours. That's really great if you're lost, cut off and under constant combat. I don't know about you, but one of the first things I'd do in a Timor exploration is disorientate the players and have them become mislead. Adding a time-limit where they have to be out or they LOSE THEY CHARACTER is cruel. Especially when there's a very good chance the character is under the mental domination of the Marikith Queen and very likely UNWILLING to leave.
And as poor taste as it is killing a character without even a save, it is even worse punishing them with something requiring a rare 9th level spell whose outcome is often twisted to even have a chance to restore the character.

There is nothing that gives the Queen mental control until they are completely controlled, and there is information that suggests that it doesn't happen even them.

And yes, they lose their character. Happens for walking out of Borca, or the Village of Barovia. Happens for spending a month in Darkon. The effect I'm going with requires a failed power check for commiting an act of betrayal. Timor lacks a population large enough to make that a likely occurence.

* I really, really like the two Power Checks idea: where one failure leaves you open to domination and a partial transformation while the second finishes the transformation. Especially when you factor in the mental domination, you're essentially a puppet and very open to betraying your friends/party (which works with the theme of betrayal and leads to other power checks).
We could even add options, things that do not warrant a check traditionally but cause fear and require one in Timor. These are things we can do since we have the space and SotK didn't.

Once again, there is nothing about mental domination.

* Why would the mental domination end when you leave the domain? Sure, you would be unable to receive new commands, but old ones might still remain. A second chance at rolling the save should be granted, but this should not be automatic either.
Heh, imagine the queen having semi-dominated spies throughout Paridon. Sewer workers, explorers and treasure hunters all told to "Act normal but find out what you can about doppelgangers and return to the tunnels in a week." That's a sidebar right there!

If Dominic, a darklord based around mind control, cannot keep his Obedients obedient when they leave the domain, there is no way the Marikith Queen, who has never been able to control anyone's mind, even those changing, can do the same. I'm not willing to break canon that much.

* Interestingly, as canon and "important to the theme" as this Fear Effect is, there is NO mention of it in Domains of Dread. None. The only other mention before the half-assed filler rule in Shadow of the Knife was the very outdated rule in Islands of Terror.
Since we're expanding on what was written in SotK and not merely reiterating the 3-4 pages written on Timor I don't really have many qualms about altering the rules.

But Domains of Dread also completely "Tristian'ed" the Hive Queen. Since we are considering Shadow a canon source we cannot pick and choose what we want to keep. You said that yourself. It is obvious that the writers were going to include it into 3e Timor, so we're going to keep it there.

Okay. Done. No more from me on this.
Now onto the next angry argument... er... discussion.
Ravenloftian Underdark.

Why can't Timor be one?
What's so bad about the Underdark?

Drow.

Now, obviously giant and labyrinthic tunnel complexes stretching down beyond logic with room after room filled with traps, monsters and functionless rooms are bad ideas. But that doesn't mean the entire idea of dungeon crawls are bad. Ravenloft was founded on them! I6/ House of Strahd. Dungeon crawl. From the Shadows. Dungeon Crawl. Hell, most of the adventures feature some manner of manor or castle or crypt that is essentially a dungeon crawl. Dungeons and Dragons itself was founded on dungeon crawls, it's not only in the title but most of the original play-testing was Gygax's group wandering deeper and deeper into the ruins of Greyhawk.
Now, DCs are not everyone's cup of tea. I find them boring at times, especially when they become nothing but hack-n-slash, kick in the door snooze fests. But some people like them and who am I to judge their tastes?
And the reason they're overlooked in Ravenloft so often is that it's hard to have massive dungeon complexes in a more fairy-tale/realism based world. They're simply not made. Only so many 'haunted mines' and 'cursed mansions' before people roll their eyes.
Sure Bluetspur can be used but that's slightly more traditional and high-level. This is simple and much easier for low and mid-level characters (and situated near enough to civilization).

Haunted mines and everything exist in the other domains. The mines below Falkovnia, The Keening Tunnels, The Shadow Rift, the tunnels in Karatakass. There is no need to make Timor a dungeon crawl just because it is underground.

So why not take advantage of what Timor is? I'm not saying it has to be some silly and massive subterranean dungeon filled with dozens of races and cities, but it could be filled with several small villages of poor humans and escaped calibans as well as assorted undead, scavengers and other creatures. It could be another Darkon, a bridge between one style of world and gameplay with the more traditional 'Loft style.

Darkon is Darkon. There is no need to repeat it underground. Also, we have to keep the population down to a bare minimum, because the ecology wouldn't be able to take that much.

Timor can be so much more than just a giant nest of Marikith to be picked off one group at a time.

But you're forgetting that Timor isn't just a place with Marikith. Timor is in the position that it is in because the Marikith won. They took over the city and became the dominant species. The new Timor reflects that. Unless we're going to stop making domains reflect the Lords approaching the domain as the Underdark isn't appropriate.

As for separating and differentiating Timor from Bluetspur, I lean back to an old suggestion of mine: continual reminders of humanity and the fallen city of Timor. Sinkholes, sewer, 'flushed' items, inhabited and abandoned human villages, bits of the city, etc. While the Flayer tunnels are inhuman and alien and beyond sanity, these are simply places humanity lost, places that reject humanity, places humankind no longer rules. Bluetspur is and always was inhuman whereas Timor is recognizably human, it was human, but it just is not anymore.

Timor was human and then absorbed by the Hive. It reflects that in taking after Aliens type horror. That's its niche in Ravenloft. Making it generic fantasy underground isn't going to be as interesting, especially since there are tons of domains in the Core that have cave systems that can fill that requirement.

[Jester of the FoS]

General point corrections.

The Borders don't require a roll, and those that do are not save and you completely avoid it.

Most borders are not lethal and ALL borders are not instant kill. There is always a chance to turn back and return, albeit impaired. There is also often a blatant visual sign the borders are closed such as rising fog or flames or waves of monsters. The point of these semi-lethal borders is to discourage or prevent people from leaving, not slay them outright.
This is very different from power checks where there is no obvious visible sign (in game or out) that you have failed (or been asked to roll) a check.
It is an invalid comparison.

There is nothing that gives the Queen mental control until they are completely controlled, and there is information that suggests that it doesn't happen even them.

Once again, there is nothing about mental domination.

Ummm... other than the phrase "dominated" in SotK.
Check page 8 of that adventure -second column- then compare with page 224 of the PHB. Both SotK and Domains of Dread agree that all marikith must obey the commands of their queen and are united in a hive mind. It is impossible for a marikith to disobey. Things only get muddy of you introduce a second queen. Which I believe we are...

Okay, onto the real discussion. And we're not touching drow...

Haunted mines and everything exist in the other domains. The mines below Falkovnia, The Keening Tunnels, The Shadow Rift, the tunnels in Karatakass. There is no need to make Timor a dungeon crawl just because it is underground.

Right, everything else exists in other domains. No argument. But it's hard to add a giant, cavernous city-sized sprawling 'dungeon' under most domains, so we resort to the aforementioned haunted mines. And there are limits to these other places, haunted mines can only be so big before you wonder how any miners could have dug that deep.
Timor is a place where the scale is a little more liberal, and excuse for a truly big dungeon.

Darkon is Darkon. There is no need to repeat it underground. Also, we have to keep the population down to a bare minimum, because the ecology wouldn't be able to take that much.

I'm not suggesting we repeat Darkon. Darkon is simply the domain where generic fantasy meets horror and is a little more 'Tolkien' than other domains. It's the crossover land for more traditional fantasy.

What I'm suggesting is that we can make Timor a stylistic crossover opposed to a content crossover, a place to allow the traditional conventions of fantasy gaming (huge dungeons full of dangers) to meet Ravenloft (horror and fear with deadly monsters and story).

And why does the domain have to have a sparse ecology? It's presumed to have one but there's no reason we can't expand and add greater variety. Slimes, molds and fungi can provide food, as can raids on the surface. There may be warrens and the like.
We're not talking about some massive Menzoberranzan style metropoli, but a couple small villages and hamlets of varying sufficiency and isolated beasties. No drow. No flayers. No derro or duegar. Just swarms of Marikith (couple hives), some calibans, a few humans and assorted other misc creatures of varying intelligence and lethality.

Unless we're going to stop making domains reflect the Lords approaching the domain as the Underdark isn't appropriate.

I still haven't heard a convincing argument why the two are mutually exclusive, why you can't have a massive dungeon-style domain with a theme and which is a reflection of the Lord.

Timor was human and then absorbed by the Hive. It reflects that in taking after Aliens type horror. That's its niche in Ravenloft. Making it generic fantasy underground isn't going to be as interesting, especially since there are tons of domains in the Core that have cave systems that can fill that requirement.

Again, no one said ANYTHING about generic fantasy. It's not and won't be. I'm suggesting we appropriate some of the style and methodology of generic fantasy and apply it to Ravenloft to add something found nowhere else. To say all dungeon crawls are "generic fantasy" would be labelling I6 "generic fantasy", which it is not.
And while there are cave systems elsewhere in the Mists, none have the possibilities for the range of environments found in Timor (sewer, cavern, 'alien' hive, ancient ruins, sunken cities, etc) and none have the same opportunities for scale (something as length and width as Paridon but with much greater depth/height).

[Tobias Blackburn]

General point corrections.

Most borders are not lethal and ALL borders are not instant kill. There is always a chance to turn back and return, albeit impaired. There is also often a blatant visual sign the borders are closed such as rising fog or flames or waves of monsters. The point of these semi-lethal borders is to discourage or prevent people from leaving, not slay them outright.
This is very different from power checks where there is no obvious visible sign (in game or out) that you have failed (or been asked to roll) a check.
It is an invalid comparison.

You turn into a marikith over the course of 1d6 hours. They are not human looking creatures. You'll notice. We're adding enough to make sure you notice.

Ummm... other than the phrase "dominated" in SotK.
Check page 8 of that adventure -second column- then compare with page 224 of the PHB. Both SotK and Domains of Dread agree that all marikith must obey the commands of their queen and are united in a hive mind. It is impossible for a marikith to disobey. Things only get muddy of you introduce a second queen. Which I believe we are...

You aren't a marikith until the transformation is complete. Add that to the fact that in old Timor she could not control a marikith unless she laid it herself or she took the newly transformed marikith, swallowed him and "laid" him one week later. Nothing gave her full control and that is another thing we're going to add in.

Okay, onto the real discussion. And we're not touching drow...

That's alright. I only said that as a joke.

Right, everything else exists in other domains. No argument. But it's hard to add a giant, cavernous city-sized sprawling 'dungeon' under most domains, so we resort to the aforementioned haunted mines. And there are limits to these other places, haunted mines can only be so big before you wonder how any miners could have dug that deep.
Timor is a place where the scale is a little more liberal, and excuse for a truly big dungeon.

There is nothing that said that there aren't big dungeons in the Core. If you want one you can easily add them to Darkon and Keening.

I'm not suggesting we repeat Darkon. Darkon is simply the domain where generic fantasy meets horror and is a little more 'Tolkien' than other domains. It's the crossover land for more traditional fantasy.

What I'm suggesting is that we can make Timor a stylistic crossover opposed to a content crossover, a place to allow the traditional conventions of fantasy gaming (huge dungeons full of dangers) to meet Ravenloft (horror and fear with deadly monsters and story).

Ok, but the dangers of Timor should refrain from being Uber powerful monsters along the vein of Illithids and liches. There might be ghosts and the odd restless undead, as well as vermin (mmmm... rat-on-a-stick) and oozes, but the real "monster" threat must remain the marikith.

And why does the domain have to have a sparse ecology?

Because it is listed as having such in the Ravenloft Campaign Setting and Ravenloft Player's Handbook.

It's presumed to have one but there's no reason we can't expand and add greater variety. Slimes, molds and fungi can provide food, as can raids on the surface. There may be warrens and the like.
We're not talking about some massive Menzoberranzan style metropoli, but a couple small villages and hamlets of varying sufficiency and isolated beasties. No drow. No flayers. No derro or duegar. Just swarms of Marikith (couple hives), some calibans, a few humans and assorted other misc creatures of varying intelligence and lethality.

A few, sure. But for other creatures of varying intelligence, that runs into the problem of the Corruption effect. Any society that exists must stay good or transform into marikith.

Unless we're going to stop making domains reflect the Lords approaching the domain as the Underdark isn't appropriate.

I still haven't heard a convincing argument why the two are mutually exclusive, why you can't have a massive dungeon-style domain with a theme and which is a reflection of the Lord.

Sure, as long as non-marikith monsters with any intelligence are good or are constructs, undead, plants or outsiders in order to avoid the corruption effect.

Perhaps the term "Underdark" is the problem, because, for me, it carries the connotation of an underground version of the surface filled with evil versions of the good races. At least in my mind, the underdark is more scary because of the sheer power of the monsters you might face, not because you're terrified of what MIGHT be lurking in the shadows. Timor can be a vast dungeon-like area, but it has to be far darker than the average fantasy world's underdark.

Again, no one said ANYTHING about generic fantasy. It's not and won't be. I'm suggesting we appropriate some of the style and methodology of generic fantasy and apply it to Ravenloft to add something found nowhere else. To say all dungeon crawls are "generic fantasy" would be labelling I6 "generic fantasy", which it is not.
And while there are cave systems elsewhere in the Mists, none have the possibilities for the range of environments found in Timor (sewer, cavern, 'alien' hive, ancient ruins, sunken cities, etc) and none have the same opportunities for scale (something as length and width as Paridon but with much greater depth/height).

I agree, but we have to keep it from being populated with non-marikith monsters. This isn't a place for vastly powerful liches and beholders. The domain, and it's controversal corruption effect, are based around the Hive and its desire to consume or destroy everything as it expands.

If what you mean is underground adventurers in a vast cavern network, then we're on the same page (or at least the same book). What I want to avoid is an underground world populated by a variety of monsters of which the marikith are just one. It is inargueably their land and adding a lot of other species would dilute it (unless we are willing to boost each Hunter to about 10 hitdice and give them acid spiting).

One thing I am keeping in mind is that they are also very secretive and have not absorbed even a quarter of the tunnels into the Hive. It is quite possible to have adventures without bumping into them.

[Jester of the FoS]

I don't see the corruption effect being a problem for other intelligent monsters any more than they have to worry about Power Checks. The powers are funny that way.

And I don't think the Marikith need be the ONLY monster in Timor, not anymore tha Paridon is restricted to dopplegangers or Barovia is restricted to vampires. They should be the dominant force and the signature foe, but there should be room and we should make a place for anything DMs want to throw at their players. Lots of little nooks and cranies to stick a lich or vampire or yes, even a beholder. We needn't mention them all by name (or even at all), just leave room for them to fit in.

The main impetus is to provide many and varied motives to venture into the depths of Timor. Legends and rumours and the like. As well as places of *relative* safety, just for contrast.

[Tobias Blackburn]

I don't see the corruption effect being a problem for other intelligent monsters any more than they have to worry about Power Checks. The powers are funny that way.

Except Shadow specifically states that the Marikith drag monsters into the sewer to turn them into Marikith. Why would they take the time looking for monsters instead of just snatching people they catch alone. It's harder to find a doppelganger and a jackelwere than it is to find a prostitue on the edge.

And I don't think the Marikith need be the ONLY monster in Timor, not anymore tha Paridon is restricted to dopplegangers or Barovia is restricted to vampires. They should be the dominant force and the signature foe, but there should be room and we should make a place for anything DMs want to throw at their players. Lots of little nooks and cranies to stick a lich or vampire or yes, even a beholder. We needn't mention them all by name (or even at all), just leave room for them to fit in.

This again goes back to intelligences and the corruption effect. Besides, once you put in a beholder it's harder to scare theme with Marikith.

If a DM wants to put a beholder in there because he think it fits, he should go for it. It can think of a lot of good reasons to have one in Barovia or Falkovnia. But that doesn't mean the list of possible creatures need to list them.

The main impetus is to provide many and varied motives to venture into the depths of Timor. Legends and rumours and the like. As well as places of *relative* safety, just for contrast.

Timor was the world's most beautiful city and has all the riches one would expect to go along with that. That includes magical lore and items, gold and the like. Timor shouldn't be a place you go just because you want to fight something and level up. Legends of the sunken ruins of the city (and what they contain) or attempts to track down a missing person should be all the reason they need to go down. They shouldn't be heading down because they heard there is an aboleth colony and they think they can take them.

[Undead Cabbage]

My statements before about Timor not being a dungeon crawl relate more to game mechanics then anything else. However, elements of the Underdark would make sense.

Some things to avoid:
- Letting Marikiths become like Orcs/kobolds/goblins. This would immediately destroy the fear that they can cause. The key to this is to have the Marikiths swarm in once their target has found, as opposed to having only 3-5 of them uniformly in each room, no matter how long you take before moving on.
- Races other than the Calibans and the Marikiths. However, I think that we also can create some more flexibility here, and make many different types of Marikiths. Please no Illithids, Yuan Ti, Duergar, Derro, Kuo Toa, Slaadi, or Drow (introduce a CG drow with twin scimitars and I'll sick the coastal wizards lawyers on you).
- Random Treasure. Because we all know how people just leave 250gp lying around, especially when areas in the upper streets are in poverty. I don't mean that we have no treasure, just lets avoid the free cash scenarios.
- Mechanical traps, save those designed by the Calibans. Biological traps made by the Marikiths are a different story.

Things that would Work:
- Isolation. The underdark is considered to be the toughest place in Faerun because it separates you from food, water, shelter, rest, allies, etc. The queen's lonliness will likely be relfected upon the PCs while in Timor (as will people feeling Guilt in Sithicus). Although not actually in a game mechanic way.
- 'Weird creatures'. This is different from different races. I think we should make multiple different types of Marikiths that hunt in different ways. Necropolis had its own undead, Timor can have its own Marikiths (although I doubt anyone actually uses Marikiths anywhere else).
- The Maze. The Marikiths need not care about physical orientation due to their telepathy. The PCs do not have that boon. This time the roaches get to watch the humans check in, but not check out.
- Ideas from certain Underdark species. My proposed ideas about swarming tactis for Marikiths were taken from Gibberlings, the ant race of the underdark.
- Subterranian Dangers. As Marikiths are insect like, they would probably breathe with spiracles (basically, holes in their body that allow diffusion of gases). This would allow them to drown much less quickly the PCs, in the event of an underground flood.
- The Feel of the underdark might work. The underdark itself is supposed to be the unknown (despite how countless books have been published on it). [/i]

[William Blackmoor]

'Weird creatures'. This is different from different races. I think we should make multiple different types of Marikiths that hunt in different ways. Necropolis had its own undead, Timor can have its own Marikiths (although I doubt anyone actually uses Marikiths anywhere else).

No, there shouldn't be to many types of marikith. As I suggested I would prefer some half-marikith (animals like aligators) who only posses certain powers (what do we gett if a dopp is infected? Are they immune or do they change to "Judas-roaches" from Mimic )

And I think we should also inclued other creatures as well, like some of those I suggested in the beginning of this thread.
Just for example, some people die before they even gett the chance to transform, creating geists, spirit waifs, shadows and the like, most as dangerous to the marikith as to adventurers. Lycanthrophs might be immune due to the potent curse that already runs through their veins.
Undead and most Constructs are immune because nothing runs through their veins (anymore). Outsiders are immune as well, because ...well...because they are outsiders.
Tentacle rats might have come from an expedition ship that actually was smart enough to leave Markovia in time. Subdwellers might move in from Bluetspur from time to time or are produced by Timor's own fear effects But are probably quite quickly reduced by the marikith, if their insanity isn't driving them away (marikith feast on fear). Maybe this could also be the factor that protects the Caliban to a certain degree. Insanity, that doesn't generate fear is not "tasty"?

- Subterranian Dangers. As Marikiths are insect like, they would probably breathe with spiracles (basically, holes in their body that allow diffusion of gases). This would allow them to drown much less quickly the PCs, in the event of an underground flood.

We shouldn't make Marikith to overly insectlike, they are abberations. They have chitinous claws and jaws, a hive mind and a queen that is waist down a little more insectlike and lays eggs.
But the overall discription is actually strangely similar to doppelgangers!
Both races are able to modify their humanoid bodies to serve their needs. One changes the other squezzes. I believe I once even read that dopp's , besides specialized muscels and skin, also use an internal chamber system (similare to the marikith) to do the changeing.

[Pamela]

And why does the domain have to have a sparse ecology? It's presumed to have one but there's no reason we can't expand and add greater variety. Slimes, molds and fungi can provide food, as can raids on the surface. There may be warrens and the like.
We're not talking about some massive Menzoberranzan style metropoli, but a couple small villages and hamlets of varying sufficiency and isolated beasties. No drow. No flayers. No derro or duegar. Just swarms of Marikith (couple hives), some calibans, a few humans and assorted other misc creatures of varying intelligence and lethality.

I agree on there being room for more of an ecology here. Faerun's Underdark had thousands of people of different races surviving below, and I think Paridon itself would be considering the harvesting of lichens, etc at some point, so why wouldn't the people already there? If we can have animated oozes, slimes and molds, then an edible fungus shouldn't be stretching the limits of our imaginations.

Again, no one said ANYTHING about generic fantasy. It's not and won't be. I'm suggesting we appropriate some of the style and methodology of generic fantasy and apply it to Ravenloft to add something found nowhere else. To say all dungeon crawls are "generic fantasy" would be labelling I6 "generic fantasy", which it is not.
And while there are cave systems elsewhere in the Mists, none have the possibilities for the range of environments found in Timor (sewer, cavern, 'alien' hive, ancient ruins, sunken cities, etc) and none have the same opportunities for scale (something as length and width as Paridon but with much greater depth/height).

Zherisia is also the perfect place for that scifi staple of the underground culture in both senses of the word. Offhand I'm recalling 'Beauty and the Beast', and 'Beneath the Planet of the Apes'. Nothing grand-scale, as David wrote, but considering the harsh world above, I don't think it's impossible that a few dozen of the truly desperate have decided to take their chances on the world below.

[Tobias Blackburn]

There are edible fungus, but that doesn't mean you're going to find more than a handful of non-marikith creatures below.

Before we start deciding to add other monsters we need to answer one question. How does their existance reflect the Lord and what do they add to the domain other than more things for players to kill?

Timor city was destroyed when the Hive Queen beat out the Doppelgangers for the ability to prey on the citizens above, both for food and absorbtion. They were not physical threats to her, yet they were her biggest concern. If there had been other creatures in the sewers beyond animals, vermin and oozes she would have dealt with them first, as they would have been more of a threat. After she won and Timor was dragged underground there would have been the unique inclusion of the odd undead and construct from the city, maybe even plants, but why creatures beyond that?

What makes it possible for Beholders to survive down there? Is the Hive Queen just going to leave them be, or is she going to try to get rid of the Monster that can turn solid stone into a whisp of dust just by looking at it? While other creatures might slip in every once in a while (we can't throw in a lot of aberrations or we're copying Blutspur) too many make the marikith less scary and turn the domain into a massive dungeon crawl. There could be beholder's in Timor, but there could also be dragons in Mordent and Paridon. We should leave creatures like that to the DM's discression instead of offering them as possible random encounters.

There is no half-changed creatures, the Hive either consumes or destroys, and I don't see the Queen spending time stinging alligators which might actually have a chance to hurt her. By the same token, I don't see alligators failing dark power checks. The only creatures that should be immune to the transformation are those that are already radically different from humanoids, and the shapechanger subtype doesn't cover that.

[Rotipher of the FoS]

FWIW, I think Timor would be better served by stocking its tunnels with a range of unintelligent monsters -- not mundane animals, but nothing sentient enough to launch organized attacks on the marikith either -- that the Queen is content to leave alone, to wander the upper tunnels as a first line of defense against surface-dweller incursions. Provided the Hive can keep them at bay, there's no harm done to the marikith if they let an occasional otyugh or mimic -- not to mention any bizarre oogey-boogey whatzit the DM might invent; maybe Timor's where the Mists prefer to dump the most out-and-out bizarre monsters they come across, on various worlds, that can't camoflage themselves well enough to survive in the rest of the setting? -- lurk in the near-surface sewers as a living trap for dopplegangers, pesky adventurers, etc. And such creatures could be seen as too stupid to be worth transforming by the Queen (who considers her once-human hunters unbearably stupid already), even if such a change might be theoretically possible for some.

This would capture some of the classic "dungeon crawl" elements of the early days of gaming, for players who are in a nostalgic frame of mind, while avoiding the tired (and grossly inappropriate) old schtick of fighting drow, mind flayers, etc. Navigating creepy, confusing tunnels from which who-knows-what might suddenly pounce -- maybe marikith, but also maybe something you've never heard of before, that's just plain hungry -- could be very nerve-wracking; that scene in "Big Trouble In Little China", where something with huge teeth pops out of a side-vent and snatches away a member of the rescue-party in maybe half a second, and they never find out what it was, is the sort of menace I'm thinking of, here.

OTOH, stupid monsters don't keep treasure. So you'd avoid the full "kick in the door" cliche, because the objective is to get past the gauntlet of unintelligent monsters, not beat them up and take their stuff.

[Tobias Blackburn]

Exactly! Unintelligent monsters are less likely to be a threat to the Hive and cannot perform power check worthy actions.

While unintelligent monsters are not known for their treasure, the old city of Timor was. That city is now underground, so while you don't get the instant rewards, you'll probably find something once you discover a set of ruins to examine.

[Undead Cabbage]

We shouldn't make Marikith to overly insectlike, they are abberations. They have chitinous claws and jaws, a hive mind and a queen that is waist down a little more insectlike and lays eggs.
But the overall discription is actually strangely similar to doppelgangers!
Both races are able to modify their humanoid bodies to serve their needs. One changes the other squezzes. I believe I once even read that dopp's , besides specialized muscels and skin, also use an internal chamber system (similare to the marikith) to do the changeing.

Marikiths resemble Dopplegangers because dopplegangers are essentially a parasite. Both species are reliant on a host. In this regard, dopplegangers are actually similar to pathogens. However, I'd argue that Dopplegangers share characteristics that resemble retro viruses or bacteria more than than any form of arthropod.

Also remember that the only real difference between abberations and vermin in Dnd is that vermin actually have real-life counterparts. There are plenty of abberations out there that have tactics and abilities based off of 'creepy crawlies'. Chuul, gibberlings, Chokers, cloakers, and carrion crawlers are all examples of abberations that we based off of Arthropods. Heck, even illithids share some traits in common with mullusks (their tentacles, their eating habits, octopi are one of the smartest animals), which the closest taxonomic class to arthropods. Abberations ARE creepy crawlies that inspired by real life species.

The problem with introducing half-marikiths is that this interferes with the fright of becoming a Marikith. All of a suddenly it's possible to short change the corruption phenomenon. However, the change into becoming a Marikith could reflect the previous form. Humans being highly social creautres could become the most 'social' form of Marikith, the Marikith Hunters. It's go big or go home. Introducing half-breeds would also give the Queen a chance to be social, and thus interfere with her curse.

What makes it possible for Beholders to survive down there? Is the Hive Queen just going to leave them be, or is she going to try to get rid of the Monster that can turn solid stone into a whisp of dust just by looking at it? While other creatures might slip in every once in a while (we can't throw in a lot of aberrations or we're copying Blutspur) too many make the marikith less scary and turn the domain into a massive dungeon crawl. There could be beholder's in Timor, but there could also be dragons in Mordent and Paridon. We should leave creatures like that to the DM's discression instead of offering them as possible random encounters.

I agree with Tobias on this. Timor needs to be its own thing. I don't know about you guys, but everyone I know who plays Ravenloft plays it because they want something different. There is no shortage of average dungeon places out there. Heck, Darkon and Falkovnia already pose locations to find your average dungeon. It's been done, so lets try something new.

Ravenloft is a gothic horror campaign, and thus it works off of Horror themes. Each domain has its own gothic horror theme/themes. In Mordent, its obviously ghosts and haunted mansions. In falkovnia, its the horror of war and despotism. Timor needs its own horror theme, and not the overplayed note of other campaign settings or RL realms. Bugs, arachnids, 'creepy crawlies', insects, and the like are a theme in horror that would be best played in Timor. There's also really no where else that the 'bugs' horror theme can be played out better than in Timor. If we don't play with this note, then I don't think we are bringing Timor to its fullest potential.

The decision to turn Timor into a place where Beholders or other fantasy creatures lie is a personal decision. When making this Gaz, I don't think we should be basing what realms are by personal decisions, but by practical ones. Timor needs to fit with what Ravenloft is. If it doesn't fit, then its going to either outshine the rest of the setting, or stick out like a sore thumb.

On the note of the 'bugs' theme, there will need to be a wide variety of less intelligent creatures. Whether these creatures are variants of Marikiths or other species is still up in the air. However, it would ruin timor to have other overly intelligent species out there. Not to mention, this would also create complications with the queen's curse. The queen needs to be surrounded by unintelligent beings for her curse to work.

Also keep in mind that the 'bugs' theme and the queen's curse work perfectly. Before becoming a Marikith, the queen was likely the type of person to scream at the sight of a bug. And so, in order to frighten her mother, she became a form that in her mind was the most frightening, an arthopodic form. And now, an individual that is obsessed with vanity is surrounded by disgusting bugs that are incapable of being social.

One thing we might do is make variants of Marikiths that might have once been creatures like beholders. Timor was once a great city, and before coming into the mists may have had a lot of 'fantasy creatures' per say. Imagine if a Beholder or a Maticore became a Marikith? Timor could be a twisted reflection of a fantasy world, in that these creatures have become assimiliated into the timor body.

[Tobias Blackburn]

The Hive Queen chose the form she did for her "illusion" because she knew that her mother feared the Marikith, not necessarily because it was the thing that scared her most.

However, Cabbage's comments on her curse are another reason to keep the intelligent monster population down. Her biggest fear is being replaced the same way she was, that's why the hatchling is out there somewhere. If you include intelligent, villanous monsters who are able to combat the marikith and survive (even create settlements) the idea of a daughter out there becomes small potatoes. You change the very basis of her curse.

As a side note, the Queen is able to lay eggs and create new Marikith without a humanoid to transform, but she is also capable of forcing them to transform with her sting.

[Undead Cabbage]

The Hive Queen chose the form she did for her "illusion" because she knew that her mother feared the Marikith, not necessarily because it was the thing that scared her most.

Obviously a phobia of bugs wasn't a primary reason. It would, however, add to the texture of the character if she really was afraid of bugs before becoming the queen.

[Mortavius]

I would like to point out the fact that while we should consider in what ways the domain reflects the Lord, not EVERYTHING has to have this comparison.

It seems that this idea is brought up a lot "How does this reflect the Queen?" Well, that's great for major stuff, and when the domain was initially formed, I'm sure that the majority did reflect the Queen. But Timor has been around for quite awhile, and things change.

An example I could use, would be Mordent. Do Werepanthers reflect the theme of Mordent? Not really. But you're telling me that it wouldn't be possible for a Werepanther to have left Valachan to the south and migrated north? Of course it is. That's another thing that's great about 3E Ravenloft; the campaign setting started to consider the effects that surrounding domains have on an individual place. Made the place feel more cohesive and real.