The Borders don't require a roll, and those that do are not save and you completely avoid it.David of the FoS wrote:Okay, my Internet was down yesterday so I'm late in replying. This will be my final post on the subject as this discussion has run its course and is threatening to become less of a discussion and more of an argument (which is really not fair to Tobias who is making some excellent points but is simply outgunned as everyone is on the other side, and arguments like that always seem like persecution).
Okay, rant aside:
* I concede that a Path, while cool, would take too long. I rescind my idea to include it as a sidebar.
* Power checks are still the best method, but we should restrict them to acts that cause fear. That works with the theme of the domain.
You NEED to be able to roll. Having a time limit doesn't help. It simply does not. It could be six hours or sixteen, there still HAS to be a random chance for success or failure. Otherwise we're introducing a rule that requires DM adjunction. For good DMs who work with their players this is not a problem, but for good DMs you really need a rule book the size of a pamphlet. You make rules for bad DMs to keep them honest and things fair.
Anything we add will require DM's to take on more rules. Should we not add any plants or creatures any more? This requires no more of a DM than a regular power check.
There is nothing that gives the Queen mental control until they are completely controlled, and there is information that suggests that it doesn't happen even them.* One to Six hours. That's really great if you're lost, cut off and under constant combat. I don't know about you, but one of the first things I'd do in a Timor exploration is disorientate the players and have them become mislead. Adding a time-limit where they have to be out or they LOSE THEY CHARACTER is cruel. Especially when there's a very good chance the character is under the mental domination of the Marikith Queen and very likely UNWILLING to leave.
And as poor taste as it is killing a character without even a save, it is even worse punishing them with something requiring a rare 9th level spell whose outcome is often twisted to even have a chance to restore the character.
And yes, they lose their character. Happens for walking out of Borca, or the Village of Barovia. Happens for spending a month in Darkon. The effect I'm going with requires a failed power check for commiting an act of betrayal. Timor lacks a population large enough to make that a likely occurence.
Once again, there is nothing about mental domination.* I really, really like the two Power Checks idea: where one failure leaves you open to domination and a partial transformation while the second finishes the transformation. Especially when you factor in the mental domination, you're essentially a puppet and very open to betraying your friends/party (which works with the theme of betrayal and leads to other power checks).
We could even add options, things that do not warrant a check traditionally but cause fear and require one in Timor. These are things we can do since we have the space and SotK didn't.
If Dominic, a darklord based around mind control, cannot keep his Obedients obedient when they leave the domain, there is no way the Marikith Queen, who has never been able to control anyone's mind, even those changing, can do the same. I'm not willing to break canon that much.* Why would the mental domination end when you leave the domain? Sure, you would be unable to receive new commands, but old ones might still remain. A second chance at rolling the save should be granted, but this should not be automatic either.
Heh, imagine the queen having semi-dominated spies throughout Paridon. Sewer workers, explorers and treasure hunters all told to "Act normal but find out what you can about doppelgangers and return to the tunnels in a week." That's a sidebar right there!
But Domains of Dread also completely "Tristian'ed" the Hive Queen. Since we are considering Shadow a canon source we cannot pick and choose what we want to keep. You said that yourself. It is obvious that the writers were going to include it into 3e Timor, so we're going to keep it there.* Interestingly, as canon and "important to the theme" as this Fear Effect is, there is NO mention of it in Domains of Dread. None. The only other mention before the half-assed filler rule in Shadow of the Knife was the very outdated rule in Islands of Terror.
Since we're expanding on what was written in SotK and not merely reiterating the 3-4 pages written on Timor I don't really have many qualms about altering the rules.
Drow.Okay. Done. No more from me on this.
Now onto the next angry argument... er... discussion.
Ravenloftian Underdark.
Why can't Timor be one?
What's so bad about the Underdark?
Haunted mines and everything exist in the other domains. The mines below Falkovnia, The Keening Tunnels, The Shadow Rift, the tunnels in Karatakass. There is no need to make Timor a dungeon crawl just because it is underground.Now, obviously giant and labyrinthic tunnel complexes stretching down beyond logic with room after room filled with traps, monsters and functionless rooms are bad ideas. But that doesn't mean the entire idea of dungeon crawls are bad. Ravenloft was founded on them! I6/ House of Strahd. Dungeon crawl. From the Shadows. Dungeon Crawl. Hell, most of the adventures feature some manner of manor or castle or crypt that is essentially a dungeon crawl. Dungeons and Dragons itself was founded on dungeon crawls, it's not only in the title but most of the original play-testing was Gygax's group wandering deeper and deeper into the ruins of Greyhawk.
Now, DCs are not everyone's cup of tea. I find them boring at times, especially when they become nothing but hack-n-slash, kick in the door snooze fests. But some people like them and who am I to judge their tastes?
And the reason they're overlooked in Ravenloft so often is that it's hard to have massive dungeon complexes in a more fairy-tale/realism based world. They're simply not made. Only so many 'haunted mines' and 'cursed mansions' before people roll their eyes.
Sure Bluetspur can be used but that's slightly more traditional and high-level. This is simple and much easier for low and mid-level characters (and situated near enough to civilization).
Darkon is Darkon. There is no need to repeat it underground. Also, we have to keep the population down to a bare minimum, because the ecology wouldn't be able to take that much.So why not take advantage of what Timor is? I'm not saying it has to be some silly and massive subterranean dungeon filled with dozens of races and cities, but it could be filled with several small villages of poor humans and escaped calibans as well as assorted undead, scavengers and other creatures. It could be another Darkon, a bridge between one style of world and gameplay with the more traditional 'Loft style.
But you're forgetting that Timor isn't just a place with Marikith. Timor is in the position that it is in because the Marikith won. They took over the city and became the dominant species. The new Timor reflects that. Unless we're going to stop making domains reflect the Lords approaching the domain as the Underdark isn't appropriate.Timor can be so much more than just a giant nest of Marikith to be picked off one group at a time.
Timor was human and then absorbed by the Hive. It reflects that in taking after Aliens type horror. That's its niche in Ravenloft. Making it generic fantasy underground isn't going to be as interesting, especially since there are tons of domains in the Core that have cave systems that can fill that requirement.As for separating and differentiating Timor from Bluetspur, I lean back to an old suggestion of mine: continual reminders of humanity and the fallen city of Timor. Sinkholes, sewer, 'flushed' items, inhabited and abandoned human villages, bits of the city, etc. While the Flayer tunnels are inhuman and alien and beyond sanity, these are simply places humanity lost, places that reject humanity, places humankind no longer rules. Bluetspur is and always was inhuman whereas Timor is recognizably human, it was human, but it just is not anymore.