mere shadow of its former glory

[ScS of the Fraternity]

True, LoB was as good as it ever got.
Still, I think the material from Dark Tales would have been better off as adventures of their own. As it was, the material was cut short and din't get a chance to shine.

[Tommy Brownell]

Looooong time, no post.

Personally, I've never really liked the rules sets to either AD&D2e or 3.x...that said, the character options in 3.x blows 2E so far out of the water, and the mechanics are loads better...the main thing holding it back is how miniatures-heavy and tactical combat is.

Which is why I'm working on a Ravenloft Unisystem conversion document, using my 3.x books, plus my Domains of Dread book and Red boxed set to put it all in a system I do like.

And setting wise, even with some of the things cut for space, the gazetters are worth every penny for detailing the Core, EASY.

[Ail]

Just my opinion now.
I learned AD&D in 2nd Edition and I liked the rules, but when 3E came out I was quick to learn them just to know if it was any good.
And it was excellent. Perhaps it is because I'm a software engineer and so many concepts in 3E seem to have been taken directly from Object-Oriented Languages, but 3E is indeed excellent: simple, flexible and very well organized.

Now I play 3.5. I bought the books as quickly as I could and I never had any doubts. My campaign actually begun in 3E but it was converted midways to 3.5. It is worth it, I think.

As for joining up with 2E, I mostly do my own adventures, but I have Domains of Dread and the old VR guides and I take a lot from there. I adapt as I need. For example, I still do the test for lycanthropy with a part of the percentage depending on the hp damage inflicted by the lycanthrope, as proposed in the VR guide (I do think there should be a greater chance to contract it if the werewolf hurts you badly than if you merely suffer a scratch).

Ail

[Scot Storm]

I agree with eldritch about the 2nd Edition rules. I am old school and was brought up with things like thac0. Although I want to learn the new way to play 3.5 Edition rules, I have yet to buy the new players core rulebook.
Knowledge is King.
Storm

[ScS of the Fraternity]

Your probably exactly right about that, Ail.

I'd bet dimes to dollars that most of the people who worked on D&D 3 and 3.5 were computer literate. Modern programing languages are great training for organizational thinking.

As for Tommy's unisystem, it sounds interesting, but I know nothing about those rules. Is there anything that makes them better suited to RL?

[Tommy Brownell]

For lack of a better term, call it GURPS-lite.

Combat is harsh and deadly, and magic can be used untrained, at least at low levels (something I think fits Ravenloft very well)...character building is classless and levelless, something I like as well.

Plus, depending on which version of Unisystem you use, you have "Essence Loss", which helps emulate horrific situations breaking a character's will down.

You can go to http://www.edenstudios.net/witchcraft/W ... rebook.zip and download one of their core rulebooks to get a feel for the Classic Unisystem...my version would probably be a hybrid of Classic and Cinematic (the version that powers their Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Angel and Army of Darkness) games.

[The Giamarga]

I agree with eldritch about the 2nd Edition rules. I am old school and was brought up with things like thac0. Although I want to learn the new way to play 3.5 Edition rules, I have yet to buy the new players core rulebook.
Knowledge is King.
Storm

Well as you say knowledge is king, so how can you judge the 3rd edition to be bad if you don't know the 3rd Edition rules ???

While i was still playing 2nd Edition I won a 3.0 PHb and read it. True the combat rules seemed to be a bit too tactical and complicated but i found myself often using the 3.0 PHB to look up clarifications on 2E spells. And as I got into the sstem I saw it advantages and disadvantages.

So my advice is get yourself a used 3.0 PHB from ebay for $ 4 or less and read it. Then check out one of the different online SRD sites for the updated and easy to reference 3.5 rules from PHB, DMG, and MM. You'll probably learn to love it as did I. If not at least you're making an informed decision..

[order99]

Eldritch-I feel your pain.
Well,I don't really...but the voices in my head do,and they really WON'T SHUT UP unless I do something about it...
I feel the same way about Masque of the Red Death.The original Boxed Set had a mildly tweaked rules set from AD&D 2nd,while the WW hardcover used a 3.5 variant.I still think the Boxed set had more clarity and heart than the latter version-but in both cases I felt that Masque worked DESPITE the rulesets, not becuase of them.
I have since run a few Masque adventures in Chaosium's BRP system to decent effect...i've done one or two convention one-shots for Masque using Warhammer Fantasy RPG 2nd ed.(just tweak Professions and limit PC's to Petty and Lesser Magics,it runs like a dream).Currently,i'm just about done with making Masque run in my homebrewed Amazing Engine ruleset.

Ultimately, you play Ravenloft...unless your group really cares about such things, Ravenloft-not the rules-are the important thing.Chaosium's Call of Cthulu would be pretty easy to tweak for this purpose-just change the Focus from Alien Terror to Gothic Horror,and off you go...prefer AD&D 2nd.? Go with that. Steal from whatever sources tickle your fancy and add them to your preferred system-doesn't matter what other people play as long as your group is getting thier fill of soul-crushing terror...

Okay, are you all HAPPY now Voices? Then settle down,i've got plots to ponder...

[Undead Cabbage]

Hey folks,

When reading my opinions here, keep in mind that I've only really been playing D&D for a couple of years, and started in the 3rd edition.

Ok, so you don't like the rules. Fine, thats you. So why not change them? As a GM you have every right to change whatever you wish.

Remember that a good campaign isn't about roll playing, it's about role playing. So you have problems with the numbers. Switch them. If it works with you are your players, then what else is there? The rules aren't the focus of the game, they're simply there to lubricate it.

I know that after I finish this one campaign with my guys, I'm going to be getting tid of alignements, face lifting renaissance weapons, powering down monks, powering up sorcs, ignoring the standard tables for exp, and using the vitality/wound point system along with armor as a form fo damage reduction. By doing this, I'm drastically going against the canon material. However, I have yet to see any lawyers hired by some coastal wizard bug me about this.

I guess my opinion is, who cares? They're numbers on a page that someone created in their spare time. If you don't like templates, then don't have templates. If you don't like multiclassing, then don't do multiclassing.

The Core D&D books, in my opinion, are simply a baseline. Beginning GMs may need to follow the DMG closely. However, as one becomes more proficient, he will be putting away the books, and focusing more on his game, and less on whats techincally right.

[eldritch]

I will try to answer some of your “questions”.
I assume the Castle Ravenloft product mentioned as coming in the future on Amazon will be in a 4.5 or some other ridiculous version of the rules to make it equally purile as the rest that have been printed since the Dark Conjunction and loss of TSR, a noble ruling faction in my eyes (well, my darkened eye sockets) unlike the current usurpers.[/color][/color][/color]

I assume you mean “puerile” as in childish? If anything, the 3E game isn’t childish, it is very well thought out. And it’s “Grand” Conjunction. And you mean all the stupid stuff printed after that? Something like 40 Guides, Adventures and Accessories… Just for 2E.

Patrick


(Sorry about the edit, i am having problems with this color thing...)

I was referencing the New CastleRavenloft product that is listed on amazon but isn't published yet. (anyone know if that is still a go?) Trust me I know all about 2e products as I have most all of them. I not sure what you mean if you think a castle ravenloft product was made for 2e as as I'm sure there wasn't.

I also emoted alittle on my exasperation that on the back of several of the newer ravenloft books I recently bought some say this one uses version 3.0 and this one uses 3.5 (btw is 3.x the same as 3.5?) It made me disparaged because they couldn't even do a run of 20 books without changing the rules yet again. Who knows what rules I am reading if I happen to grab one down from the shelf. Hence the jest that it will probably be in 4.5(I heard that a new rules system is coming that will supplant the current yet again, but I don nnot know the veracity of this info.)

I am well aware of the grand conjunction (as that happened in 2e days and I have all of the associated gaming products and novels) I was attempting to use Ravenloftese-type lingo (dark conjunction, for to me it was dark indeed) to describe the demise of TSR, first as a subsidiary of Wizards of the Coast, then all the rights owned by them, then having Ravenloft peddled off to ArtHaus and Whitewolf and finally discontinued.

[eldritch]

I run Both a 2nd editon game and a 3rd editon game. I only run the 2nd editon game vecuase i have an older player who is stubborn and she think she wouldn't understand the new rules.
Anywya, alot of the 3rd editon stuff can be used for information. Thier is alot there that not covered in 2nd. Also it is easy to convert 2nd thing to 3rd. Alot of important ideas have been converted to 3rd edition if you have the White Wolf books. I only have 3 Wizard of the coast booksm and all the rest are Ravenloft 3rd editon or a few independent company books., and I run great 3rd editon game. I actually find it easier to get the mood correct in 3rd editon then in 2nd. Also besides monster, and magicla items, the modules are not that hard to convert. alot of the same text cna be used.

Sounds like her and I are of like minds. Do you have to buy the regular DM's guide and player's handbook to play or are the Ravenloft titles of the same name sufficient? What 3 books do you have?

[eldritch]

I sympathize with your concern over templates, new races, and multi-classing. As a matter of fact, hearing about things like half-dragon/half-elf fighter 7/paladin9/wizard 19/archmage 3/rogue 10 characters was one of the reasons I initially thought I would hate version 3.5... it was perhaps a tad too flexible and power gamer oriented?

My sentiments exactly I am not remotely interested in encountering a vampiric bugbear/with theiving ability and elvish ancestry.

As far as 2nd ed. adventure conversion is concerned, I'm currently working on a conversion for Night of the Walking Dead to "v 3.7" (3.5 plus assorted rules modifications from various d20 sources). I'm taking the adventure outline, expanding on it, and making it my own... I'm not concerned about making the creatures and NPC class/levels (or even magic items, for that matter) identical to what they were in 2nd ed... it's the spirit of the adventure that counts! If you don't try to make a 100% equivalency between 2nd ed and v. 3.X stats, you take much of the headache out of the conversion process! Plus, the 3.5 DM's Guide has decent guidelines for creating encounters with different challenge levels (the system certainly isn't perfect, but it's more than what we had under 2nd ed.). One of the great things about 3.5 is the relative ease with which a DM can cusomize an adventure to challenge characters of different levels.
Good luck!

I think you managed to articulate my main gripe: there are no new Ravenloft adventures (and in our campaign we used the adventure products) I find them a very useful structure for my adventures and to me that was the point; to play ravenloft adventures not just define the world so creative Dm's can come up with their own off a one paragraph adventure hook. It is the fact that I would have to convert every one of those old adventures or just start new (as the new products suggest) and wing my own adventures. I'm just not that interested in doing that. it's not that I am not creative enough it is just that I bought all of those old 2e Adventures to play them!

[eldritch]

*shrug*

I'd put "Dark Tales" and "Legacies of the Blood" on par with anything I worked on for RL 2nd-ed.

Thank you for commenting I am pleased to see an author posting. I don't have Dark tales yet (I have ordered it thpugh) but have and have read Legacies and enjoyed it above the other "new" Ravenloft products I have read so far. however I suspect it had to do with that I am interested to see how Ravenloft has evolved and what they had done with previous material from 2E and it seemed that the book was full of just such fluff, whereas Heroes of Light and Champions of Darkness (The two I read this week) had very little of that type of information that I crave, mostly just game mechanics for a system I will probably never use (I mostly collect now instead of play ans my gaming group has spread apart)

I really loved the Carnival product you did (thanks) and thought the couple of paragraphs that were in Champs of Dark. didn't do it justice.

[Scot Storm]

I Like 2nd Edition Rules however learning 3.5 the conversion should be interesting and fun. I beleive we need projects to evolve our Favorite product but don't be surprised if I still use Thac0. He He He

[eldritch]

Just curious Scot, is the fact that you are from Eirie, Pensylvania have anything to do with your interest in the dark and the creepy like Ravenloft? Do they have gothic horror themed tourist stuff and or sites there? I vaguely recall a TV show about the occult on Eerie Indiana or some such town too. I think towns like Tombstone and the like could really cash in around Halloween.