VRG to the Mists

[Joël of the FoS]

(from the WotC RL board)

Oh. I thought this was going to be about all the setting, continuity, and mechanical problems in Guide to the Mists.

Darn.

Chris Nichols

*lol*

Well, this book's content is quite audacious. Perhaps not all of it works without oiling some of the parts, indeed.

Just curious, what main problems do you see?

Joël

[ChrisNichols]

*lol*

Well, this book's content is quite audacious. Perhaps not all of it works without oiling some of the parts, indeed.

Just curious, what main problems do you see?

Joël

Van Richten's Guide to the Mists has several flaws, but I'll just discuss the big one(s). Lesser problems can be discussed later. The central problem is this...

Van Richten's Guide to the Mists is an ill-advised product that presents ideas already present in the setting in a oblivious and clumsy manner, and exhibits a lack of understanding of several central design tenets of Ravenloft.

This central problem is reflected throughout the text. For instance, it has always been one of the central tenets of Ravenloft design that you do not define the Dark Powers, ever. Yet, VRGttM clearly equates the Mists with the Dark Powers, and further portrays the Mists as sentient and malevolent. Defining an area that is supposed to be ambiguous and up to individual DMs to determine is not a good idea.

Then consider the Fugued, an ostensibly new mechanic and monster type. But the Fugued do nothing that can not be duplicated by a few simple Mist-themed powers check failures. Why re-invent the wheel?

Later we have feats the allow PCs control over the Mists. Yet the previous design paradigm was that control over the Mists was very rare, limited to Vistani, anchorites, and a handful of darklord created spells. Again there is a lack of understanding of Ravenloft's basic design philosophy.

Oubliettes are a horrible idea that ignores one of the fundamental ideas behind Ravenloft's cosmology. Every place in the Mists is a domain. Every domain has a darklord. No exceptions. Further, oubliettes are merely a badly broken recapitulation of pocket domains. Again, VRGttM reinvents the wheel - and does it poorly.

We can *again* see a lack of attention to and understanding of the setting throughout much of the latter portion of the text. In Ravenloft Gazetteer Vol. 2, Salizarr is comfortably located in Il Aluk as a ghoul. Yet here he is, a bizarre Mist-tainted adversary of Gennifer and Laurie Weathermay-Foxgrove with his name spelled incorrectly to boot.

In the introduction to the DM's material, the idea of Mist creatures as Bogeymen is expounded at great length. But this very topic had just been addressed, and in considerably better form in the Ravenloft publication immediately proceeding Van Richten's Guide to the Mists, Dark Tales & Disturbing Legends. This is exactly the kind of sloppy, half-assed editting that resulted in two wildly different versions of Barovia appearing in the back-to-back releases Ravenloft Gazetteer Vol. 1 and Champions of Darkness.

Lastly, Van Richten's Guide to the Mists reveals too much, too fast. Laurie and Gennifer are far more experienced and competent than they have any right to be, even if they are devoting every waking moment to monster hunting. Additionally, the set-piece revelation of Richten Haus is flatly un-necessary; the revelant adventure was laid to rest in 2nd edition and left the final ending up to the individual DM to decide based on the needs of their campaign. Short of a Time of Unparalleled Darkness mega-adventure/campaign supplement or a conclusion to the Weathermay-Foxgrove's writing and adventuring, the final fate of Richten Haus and Rudolph Van Richten just didn't need to be addressed.

In short, Van Richten's Guide to the Mists was an ill-advised and un-necessary product that showcased both the fundamentally lack of understanding or respect for the philosophies and history that had gone into Ravenloft's design over the years and the poor state of editting and quality-control that marked much of 3.0/3.5 Ravenloft.

Chris Nichols

[Bluebomber4evr]

Hmm, well I can't argue with that logic, though I admittedly did like some of the stuff in this book. The Telling Man was really cool...and I actually prefer the Mist-tainted Salizarr over him being turned into a ghoul. *shrugs*

[Jakob]

Honestly?
I really liked it. It IS in need of heavy editing, of course, but (except for Salizarr/Salissar) I see no break in the continuity.

This central problem is reflected throughout the text. For instance, it has always been one of the central tenets of Ravenloft design that you do not define the Dark Powers, ever. Yet, VRGttM clearly equates the Mists with the Dark Powers, and further portrays the Mists as sentient and malevolent. Defining an area that is supposed to be ambiguous and up to individual DMs to determine is not a good idea.

No.
If you read carefully, you can see it is AN HYPOTESIS of the twins.
In fact, Laurie and Gennifer argue all the time about nature and finality of the Mists.
The Mists are NOT portraied "malevolent": in fact, it is stressed more than once that the Mists often HELP those in need, as much as putting innocents in peril.
The Mists are protraied as almost sentient? Of course? Honestly, it would be stupid (setting-wise, I mean) to assume the opposite. For an inhabitant of the Core the Mists are always there, moving, choosing people and displacing them, changing places, parting and returning... I think I'd see them as sentient, you know?

Then consider the Fugued, an ostensibly new mechanic and monster type. But the Fugued do nothing that can not be duplicated by a few simple Mist-themed powers check failures. Why re-invent the wheel?

To create something different.

Later we have feats the allow PCs control over the Mists. Yet the previous design paradigm was that control over the Mists was very rare, limited to Vistani, anchorites, and a handful of darklord created spells. Again there is a lack of understanding of Ravenloft's basic design philosophy.

Or Anchorites.
You forgot to mention that all of the feats have, as a prerequisite, a long permanence in the Mists (if I recall correctly, there's one that requires being born IN the Mists, but maybe I'm not). Those are feats reserved to a handful of people (except Dr. Penarrow, who spent more time IN the Mists than Out of them ).

Oubliettes are a horrible idea that ignores one of the fundamental ideas behind Ravenloft's cosmology. Every place in the Mists is a domain. Every domain has a darklord. No exceptions. Further, oubliettes are merely a badly broken recapitulation of pocket domains. Again, VRGttM reinvents the wheel - and does it poorly.

Ok, here it you forgetting a basic feature of the setting: the Mists wants it, it appears.
Oubliettes were fun. I liked them, and they help making travel trough the Mists interesting.
They are not "pocket domains". They're something completely new.

We can *again* see a lack of attention to and understanding of the setting throughout much of the latter portion of the text. In Ravenloft Gazetteer Vol. 2, Salizarr is comfortably located in Il Aluk as a ghoul. Yet here he is, a bizarre Mist-tainted adversary of Gennifer and Laurie Weathermay-Foxgrove with his name spelled incorrectly to boot.

Ok, here I agree with you.
Anyway, as was stressed in an old topic about VRGttM, why not suppose that there are TWO Sal?
Salizarr, who remained as ghoul under Il-Aluk, and Salissar, a part of him the Mists took to Richten Haus?

In the introduction to the DM's material, the idea of Mist creatures as Bogeymen is expounded at great length. But this very topic had just been addressed, and in considerably better form in the Ravenloft publication immediately proceeding Van Richten's Guide to the Mists, Dark Tales & Disturbing Legends. This is exactly the kind of sloppy, half-assed editting that resulted in two wildly different versions of Barovia appearing in the back-to-back releases Ravenloft Gazetteer Vol. 1 and Champions of Darkness.

I think the two descriptions complete one another, but that's just me.

Lastly, Van Richten's Guide to the Mists reveals too much, too fast. Laurie and Gennifer are far more experienced and competent than they have any right to be, even if they are devoting every waking moment to monster hunting.

Errr...
Don't NPCs gain levels?
If PC move from 1st to 10th level in (let's say) a six-month gametime, why shouldn't the Twins move from 5th to 12th level in... Let's see... TWO YEARS?
If you remember, they DID spend their time hunting monsters.

Additionally, the set-piece revelation of Richten Haus is flatly un-necessary; the revelant adventure was laid to rest in 2nd edition and left the final ending up to the individual DM to decide based on the needs of their campaign.

It's called "setting canon".

Short of a Time of Unparalleled Darkness mega-adventure/campaign supplement or a conclusion to the Weathermay-Foxgrove's writing and adventuring, the final fate of Richten Haus and Rudolph Van Richten just didn't need to be addressed.

It might have been.
Unfortunately, WotC has come to SAVE the setting*.

I found VRGttM a good product. With editing, it would have been much, much better.

* Or so say most of people on WotC boards... People I think never bought a single Gazetteer.
Yes, I think the Gazetteers were better than anything WotC ever published for any setting. The first two (the bast ones), mainly, were instrumental in making Ravenloft a true setting.

[Archedius]

I agree w/ the guide to the mists having some poor parts to it. Oubliette's felt a bit wrong to me so I view them now as moral traps set by the DP's to test individuals for Darklordship. Kind of like how Lord Soth was tested when he went into the mists towards the latter part of Knight of the Black Rose. It must be said that I run RL campaigns as 'moral' filters where evil characters will eventually be cursed for thier deeds and good characters will either survive or find a bit of happiness- or die for the greater good. I like fatalism in stories and movies so I try and continue it into my games; players seem to like it as they know I don't pull punches.

[Joël of the FoS]

Hey Chris, thanks for telling us what you think about this book. You opened a door about it on the WotC board, and I boldly put my boot in it to keep it opened

Van Richten's Guide to the Mists is an ill-advised product that presents ideas already present in the setting in a oblivious and clumsy manner, and exhibits a lack of understanding of several central design tenets of Ravenloft.

Let’s summarize your post on design tenets, if I can :

- VRGttM clearly equates the Mists with the Dark Powers
- VRGttM portrays the Mists as sentient and malevolent.
- VRGttM shows feats the allow PCs control over the Mists.

I agree these points developed in VRGttM were left in the mists (;)) by previous books, either 3e or 2e, and considered near taboos. It was a deliberate choice of the previous setting writers and kept it mysterious for the DM to do whatever he wants.

Now, this said, I don’t mind Ravenloft changing and expanding on a solid canon base, contrary to good ol’ Sheriff Potato from Champions of Dorkness, or other design horrors from this book (and PHB3.5, and others…).

IMHO (and that’s only it!), if Ravenloft is to be static, rules wise, I think it can lose interest from long time fans. If it’s always “same old, same old”, I think it is less interesting. The only changes / advancements in the setting are then found in the setting story and background, which is cool too, but after a while, it lacks new crunch for a DM.

As I wrote, the book is audacious in its aim, and IMHO it doesn’t have the major continuity flaws of CoD and other books, so as a fan I’m willing to let the authors some liberty. If it’s solidly standing on canon, I do not mind a few tweaks.

Also, as Jakob wrote, IIRC those “unmentionable” design topics are mostly in discussions between the twins, and left ultimately to the reader’s choice. But I’d have to read it again to be sure. I do not remember seeing something as the definitive truth.

(To quote the DD, consider it an option ).

*runs for cover*



---

In his WE PDF author’s notes about VRGttM, Rucht wrote : “It was first delayed during the fallout between the Kargatane and the developers. Because of the fallout, the book lost one of its authors.”

Just curious, who from the K was going to be a writer on this?

---

Then consider the Fugued, an ostensibly new mechanic and monster type. But the Fugued do nothing that can not be duplicated by a few simple Mist-themed powers check failures. Why re-invent the wheel?

I have to admit I was confused by this as well, and believed at first Gennifer has lost a power check when she attacked Salissar.

However, most salient powers are fun (I haven't check them for mechanics yet but they appeared as cool DM tools).

---

Oubliettes are a horrible idea that ignores one of the fundamental ideas behind Ravenloft's cosmology. Every place in the Mists is a domain. Every domain has a darklord. No exceptions. Further, oubliettes are merely a badly broken recapitulation of pocket domains. Again, VRGttM reinvents the wheel - and does it poorly.

Mmm, on that, I’m not sure. Especially when used in a domain, such as a shop that’s there / not there for example, or the “ghost on the bridge” story. (Even Lyron Evensong can have his manor reworked as an oubliette, moving from place to place, IMHO)

I see it as an eerie place, spawned by a villain, but without a darklord, and without borders that can be closed. It’s that shop you are not obligated to go, but still feel compelled to, or have to if you want to solve a mystery.

An oubliette in the mists itself, I’m not sure, I never really gave a thought about it to find if it is cheesy or not. Might be too fantasy / Deus Machina indeed.

We can *again* see a lack of attention to and understanding of the setting throughout much of the latter portion of the text. In Ravenloft Gazetteer Vol. 2, Salizarr is comfortably located in Il Aluk as a ghoul. Yet here he is, a bizarre Mist-tainted adversary of Gennifer and Laurie Weathermay-Foxgrove with his name spelled incorrectly to boot.

Well Rucht already apologized for this mistake, and said he wanted to correct it, but revision steps never came because of the end of the line and the product was rushed to PDF. But this was a funky error indeed!

In the introduction to the DM's material, the idea of Mist creatures as Bogeymen is expounded at great length. But this very topic had just been addressed, and in considerably better form in the Ravenloft publication immediately proceeding Van Richten's Guide to the Mists, Dark Tales & Disturbing Legends. This is exactly the kind of sloppy, half-assed editting that resulted in two wildly different versions of Barovia appearing in the back-to-back releases Ravenloft Gazetteer Vol. 1 and Champions of Darkness.

On that topic, you are more knowledgeable then me

Lastly, Van Richten's Guide to the Mists reveals too much, too fast. Laurie and Gennifer are far more experienced and competent than they have any right to be, even if they are devoting every waking moment to monster hunting.

I agree they seem to have a life much richer than Van Richten’s himself! But if you want to tell a story, you might have to exaggerate a bit?

Additionally, the set-piece revelation of Richten Haus is flatly un-necessary; the revelant adventure was laid to rest in 2nd edition and left the final ending up to the individual DM to decide based on the needs of their campaign. Short of a Time of Unparalleled Darkness mega-adventure/campaign supplement or a conclusion to the Weathermay-Foxgrove's writing and adventuring, the final fate of Richten Haus and Rudolph Van Richten just didn't need to be addressed.

I tend toward this too.

In short, Van Richten's Guide to the Mists was an ill-advised and un-necessary product that showcased both the fundamentally lack of understanding or respect for the philosophies and history that had gone into Ravenloft's design over the years and the poor state of editing and quality-control that marked much of 3.0/3.5 Ravenloft.

While I can understand your point of view, and respect it, I think your judgement is quite severe! I agree it needed better editing (what else is new) and strengthening of some parts, especially the rules & feats, but I do not think VRGttM is all that bad

Just my 2c, for what it's worth!

Joël

[alhoon]

Well... I liked it.

The weathermay twins make a hypothesis and I don't mind about it.
The Ob/tes are cool So why not?
The powers over the mists are also cool. They allow control over the mists, not the DPowers.

[Garudos Celestar]

Errr...
Don't NPCs gain levels?
If PC move from 1st to 10th level in (let's say) a six-month gametime, why shouldn't the Twins move from 5th to 12th level in... Let's see... TWO YEARS?
If you remember, they DID spend their time hunting monsters.

Not the way PCs do. NPCs only gain experience when directly participating in encounters with PCs; otherwise, their levels are set (and change) by DM will. NPC levels reflect the NPC's abilities and are not based on how many goblyns the NPC has killed in his or her lifetime.

That's why a venerable veteran of Drakov's wars may still be a 2nd-level Warrior while an 8-year-old girl with no adventuring experience can be a "natural" 12th-level Sorcerer. Their class levels represent what they're supposed to be able to do if encountered by the PCs and has nothing to do with experience points.

As for VRGttMists itself, I enjoyed it (even if many of the other guides, such as, say, Ghosts and Vampires, were far superior.) I like the idea of the oubliettes, and I thoroughly appreciated many of the new feats and salient abilities, as well as the Mists subtype. I think my favorite creature in the book is the kalij: the twist with infusing them with the Mists, rather than just making them another kind of ghost, was a nice touch.

[Jakob]

Not the way PCs do. NPCs only gain experience when directly participating in encounters with PCs; otherwise, their levels are set (and change) by DM will. NPC levels reflect the NPC's abilities and are not based on how many goblyns the NPC has killed in his or her lifetime.

I'll remember to not use irony anymore.

[Garudos Celestar]

I'll remember to not use irony anymore.

Aw, crap. As a lifelong supporter of the use of wit, I feel utterly ashamed for missing that.

*smacks forehead*

[alhoon]

NPC levels reflect the NPC's abilities and are not based on how many goblyns the NPC has killed in his or her lifetime.

That's why a venerable veteran of Drakov's wars may still be a 2nd-level Warrior while an 8-year-old girl with no adventuring experience can be a "natural" 12th-level Sorcerer. Their class levels represent what they're supposed to be able to do if encountered by the PCs and has nothing to do with experience points.

However, you have to admit that the veteran of the Drakov's wars will be far more competent than a 2nd level warrior. After all, he spend 20 years fighting and he survived.

[Jakob]

I'll remember to not use irony anymore.

Aw, crap. As a lifelong supporter of the use of wit, I feel utterly ashamed for missing that.

*smacks forehead*

Ok, I'll start being witty again.

[mistshadow2k4]

First of all, I'd like to say that this thread showcases the reason I don't post here much anymore. You can't post anything withouth it being literally torn to shreds here. Any opinion you espouse is quickly shown to be wrong somehow. Free thinking and creativity on the DM's part is lauded in words, but when people come up with their own ideas about how something is supposed to be different from the established canon, they are immediately told how terribly wrong they are.

With that said, there were a couple of things I like VRGttM.

One is the most simple; that things like ghosts can travel with the Mists. The well-worn staple of hauntings, the Ghostly Hitchhiker (also a folk legend in our world) could always move as the DM wills, but the Mists provide a better vehicle. And it makes the Mists a bit spookier.

Second are the Mist-villains like the Telling Man. These got me to thinking about the DPs and shed a little light on their nature for me. I couldn't help but wonder why the Telling Man and others of his ilk weren't DLs. The only answer I could come up with was that they weren't morally corrupt enough; yet they seemd malevolent and evil. Could these individuals be like people in the real world, with chemical imbalances and mental troubles, whose minds are so warped, folk who wouldn't do terrible things if they were sane? Well, then, what about insane DLs? That was still no answer. Then it hit me; the insane DLs were people who would've become and evil and morally corrupt anyway. They just happened to be insane too. That leads to the conclusion that the Telling Man and his kind would not have become evil without their mental troubles. The DPs turned them into (probably immortal) Mistbound monsters, bound to continue their madness and prolonging their suffering. At the very least, doing such a terrible thing to people suffering from insanity is not a good act. It's like turning patients in an asylum into a sideshow.

But that's just in my setting.

One thing I did not like was that people who came from other worlds were being treated as insane and even put in asylums. I can't get my mind around that idea, as Barovia and several other domains were taken from other worlds. I've always played using the idea that most other domains did too. Even if you don't use that, with several domains being from other worlds the idea that outlanders are just crazy people becoming widespread and accepted seems illogical. Worse, it also feels contrived to me, a way to eliminate the mystery by saying there is no mystery at all. It may be harder to figure out what the folk of RL believe about their world, but I think exploring that is better than simply saying they don't notice anything out of the ordinary and think this is all normal. Mystery, mood and atmospehre is what RL is made of, and I don't like anything that takes that away. Having a greater mystery hanging over the heads of all RLers, which most don't dare speak of for fear attracting supernatural attention, evokes a spookier atmosphere to me.

[alhoon]

First of all, I'd like to say that this thread showcases the reason I don't post here much anymore. You can't post anything withouth it being literally torn to shreds here. Any opinion you espouse is quickly shown to be wrong somehow. Free thinking and creativity on the DM's part is lauded in words, but when people come up with their own ideas about how something is supposed to be different from the established canon, they are immediately told how terribly wrong they are.

Mmmm, for someone that deviates so much from Canon, I can say that I don't feel that way. None has said to me that I'm terribly wrong. Some people agree with me, some disagree and that's all. Look at the DPowers thread for example. Anyone is giving his/her own interpretation.

I'm sorry you feel that way though. The community is supposed to increase creativity.

[Jester of the FoS]

Mmmm, for someone that deviates so much from Canon, I can say that I don't feel that way. None has said to me that I'm terribly wrong. Some people agree with me, some disagree and that's all. Look at the DPowers thread for example. Anyone is giving his/her own interpretation.

As long as you hold to the idea that dungeon crawls are bad, long story-based campaigns are good, munchkins and powergamers are pure evil and that role-playing is the only true way to salvation then, maybe, no one will criticize you for your non-canon ideas and suggestions.