..and now a Lord Soth continuity speculation message!

[Luke Fleeman]

Either way it seems an unneccessary thing to do. They couldn't think of ANY other character to use?

I have met these authors at cons, and they never struck me as the petty type, but this does seem to be such a thing. Why mess with it?

[Jester of the FoS]

Think of it this way...

Imagine if someone decides to write a book about vampires in the Forgotten Realms. They look about for good character ideas and then find one that already exists, Jander Sunstar.
So they have him snatched up from his 'prison' and brought back to the Realms, removing him from Ravenloft.

How would we as the fans feel about this? A cool character just being stolen from our setting to dump in some other place we may not be fond of.

How would the author feel? If their beloved character they're likely quite attached to was simply moved away without a thought, chucked in some other land.
If they were working on other projects, say their own novels, they might not care, but it might eat away at them. It might sit badly until they were in a position to do something.

[Charney]

I agree with you Jester but Hickman and Weis had left TSR so they had no say anymore as to what happens to their caracter. And in a way, it was like saving Soth from being left unused.

[Jester of the FoS]

They had no say if they stayed. It was owned by TSR and they could do whatever they wanted with it.

And I think we can guarantee that Soth would never have been unused. He'd have seen alot more apperances in novels and/or adventures if he'd have stayed in Dragonlance. They couldn't write him into current events with him in Ravenloft but even then he popped up in 2-3 books set in the past.

[Charney]

They had no say if they stayed. It was owned by TSR and they could do whatever they wanted with it.

And I think we can guarantee that Soth would never have been unused. He'd have seen alot more apperances in novels and/or adventures if he'd have stayed in Dragonlance. They couldn't write him into current events with him in Ravenloft but even then he popped up in 2-3 books set in the past.

I don't know the history of the writing of Dragonlance novels. Did they write books while they were out of TSR?

[Jester of the FoS]

They wrote the Dragonlance books while employed by TSR so the books themselves and the characters are owned by TSR.

They wrote a number of books outside of TSR including the Dark Sword trilogy, the Deathgate cycle (seven books IIRC) and the Sovereign Stone trilogy.

[Matthew L. Martin]

And I think we can guarantee that Soth would never have been unused. He'd have seen alot more apperances in novels and/or adventures if he'd have stayed in Dragonlance.

Highly unlikely. Soth made one appearance in an adventure anthology between Legends and the Black Box, and nothing that would have conflicted with his presence in Ravenloft was even produced until they kicked the timeframe foreward in the mid-90s.

And the Fifth Age team was already planning to make use of Soth without demanding that he be kicked out of Ravenloft.

Matthew L. Martin

[Jester of the FoS]

And I think we can guarantee that Soth would never have been unused. He'd have seen alot more apperances in novels and/or adventures if he'd have stayed in Dragonlance.

Highly unlikely. Soth made one appearance in an adventure anthology between Legends and the Black Box, and nothing that would have conflicted with his presence in Ravenloft was even produced until they kicked the timeframe foreward in the mid-90s.

Maybe, but after that he became a 'Ravenloft' character and untouchable save by flashbacks. To use him would have stepped on other people's toes.
Even then he appeared in at least two novels, one his full life story.

If he hadn't been moved he might have been a larger figure in Dragonlance with his own modules and tales. As it is, Dargaard Keep has been described no less than three times in Dragonlance products and Soth has been fully stated an equal number of times.

And the Fifth Age team was already planning to make use of Soth without demanding that he be kicked out of Ravenloft.

But Soth had been returned before the Fifth Age began. It was his apperance in Dragons of Summer Flame (and Weis and Hickman's return) that kicked off his removal from Ravenloft.

[Matthew L. Martin]

Maybe, but after that he became a 'Ravenloft' character and untouchable save by flashbacks. To use him would have stepped on other people's toes.
Even then he appeared in at least two novels, one his full life story.

I was unclear. Almost no stories set in the post-Legends timeframe and on Ansalon were produced from the period after Legends until DoSF. According to a post by James Lowder on Usenet once, everyone was staying away from it in anticipation of W&H's possible return. Therefore, it appears that Soth's presence or absence was largely immaterial.

But Soth had been returned before the Fifth Age began. It was his apperance in Dragons of Summer Flame (and Weis and Hickman's return) that kicked off his removal from Ravenloft.

Not quite. From what I've gathered, W&H did an end-run around everyone by giving Soth a cameo in DoSF. The RL team didn't know about it (I was corresponding a bit with Steve Miller in the summer of 1995; rumors were flying about Soth showing up in DoSF, but he didn't know anything--and he was the RL line editor at that point), the editors flagged it for revision in the earlier drafts but it slipped through, and even DRAGON Magazine seemed to think it had been reduced to nothing more than rumor.

In any case, there were already plans for Soth to show up in the Fifth Age stuff before W&H returned and Soth's removal was made part of the deal.

Matthew L. Martin

[JamesLowder]

In other words, as many have speculated, it also takes place at a rough time period when Soth supposedly was wandering Ravenloft as the Black Rose.

Margaret and Tracy can say the new novel is set one minute after they last used Soth in the original Dragonlance books and it wouldn't matter to the continuity. Time moves differently between the Krynn and the Dark Domains. Soth could have been gone for thirty seconds from Krynn and experienced dozens of years in Ravenloft.

Cheers,
James Lowder

[JamesLowder]

Maybe, but after that he became a 'Ravenloft' character and untouchable save by flashbacks. To use him would have stepped on other people's toes.

Untrue. It was assumed from the start by the book division that Soth was going to get out of Ravenloft if, or when, he was to be used in Krynn again.

Moreover, that notion was certainly conveyed to Margaret and Tracy before Knight of the Black Rose was written. I know. As the Ravenloft fiction line editor at the time, I'm the one who made the call to them--it was part of the discussion I had during which they were offered the chance to write the book or to be involved in the formal review of the book. They refused both offers.

Cheers,
James Lowder

[Charney]

Maybe, but after that he became a 'Ravenloft' character and untouchable save by flashbacks. To use him would have stepped on other people's toes.

Untrue. It was assumed from the start by the book division that Soth was going to get out of Ravenloft if, or when, he was to be used in Krynn again.

Moreover, that notion was certainly conveyed to Margaret and Tracy before Knight of the Black Rose was written. I know. As the Ravenloft fiction line editor at the time, I'm the one who made the call to them--it was part of the discussion I had during which they were offered the chance to write the book or to be involved in the formal review of the book. They refused both offers.

Cheers,
James Lowder

But they didn't oppose to the idea either?

[The_Confessor]

Copyright Laws and Intellectual Properties aside, it all boils down to one thing:

If you think Soth is snazzy and want to use him in your campaign, then go for it.

If you like Inza and think she's the cat's pajamas, then use her.

Or, heck, throw both options out and do something completely different (my players are begging me to do Sithicus as Raistlin's realm).

The point is regardless of who "owns" Soth, no one owns your campaign except you. So have fun!

[JamesLowder]

But they didn't oppose to the idea either?

As I recall, Tracy in particular was quite unhappy about both the idea of Ravenloft being expanded beyond his original modules or Soth being used in Ravenloft.

As Ravenloft line editor, I gave both Margaret and Tracy every possible opportunity to shape Knight of the Black Rose in a way they could live with, and when the writing assignment for Knight fell to me, I did everything I could to respect the character.

In the end, though, both Ravenloft and Soth belonged to TSR (and now to WotC/Hasbro) because of the contracts Tracy and Margaret signed. I certainly understand how it can be disappointing to have your creations used in ways you don't approve, but that's part of the deal they agreed to when they created the material for TSR. I've had similar things happen with characters I created as part of work-for-hire contracts. That's a pretty common complaint about shared world work.

In the end, though, there's no reason why Soth can't have spent time in Ravenloft and show up whenever Margaret and Tracy need him to show up in the Dragonlance books. If WotC decides now to declare the RL books non-canon, it's their right (not Margaret's or Tracy's). There's nothing in the material that would require that, but if they do, I'll shrug and move on.

Cheers,
Jim Lowder