Meaning of Liffe Discussion

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Meaning of Liffe Discussion

Post by Lord Cyclohexane »

Jester of the FoS wrote:Well, for Liffe I'll likely be doing something similar to my adventure hook ideas, possibly revised over the years but still similar.
As I've also been really interested in Liffe, could you give some basics? Are you just going off of what's in the above thread (from when Liffe was the Domain of the Month), or from other stuff scattered elsewhere?

Mostly, if I'm writing something, I'd like to make sure it doesn't conflict too heavily with your overall idea.

But, from the ideas in the above thread about trying to make Liffe a booming business island (center of trade in Nocturnal Sea), I was thinking about creating a faith for it. Since The Dark Minstrel (set in Claveria, from Book of Crypts) mentions faith in a deity called Lendor, who oversees Time as his major portfolio (more at Wikipedia), I was figuring to take your strong trade interest, mix in the "Time is money" and make an interesting divide in a faith overall concerned with Time as a whole. (Old people following traditional values of patience and waiting out the bad and wanting the young to slow down; young people following newer values of time=money and making maximum use of every second and so wanting the old to speed up and join today; and the conflict between the two interpretations).

And that's *before* taking into account the influx of religious ideas from the Core (major trade with Nova Vaasa means the Lawgiver may have a foothold, trade with Darkon means some slight influence from the LE sect of Ezra in Nevuchar Springs as that'd be Darkon's major trading port, and who knows about Eternal Order minions running from how messed up life in Darkon was under Death's reign?), all of which will change and reshape the religious views of Liffe.

Not to mention, I'd still like to develop the "University of Liffe" (in Armeikos, on the map for The Cedar Chest but not mentioned in the text), especially regarding the change in business strategies and the Boritsi Trading Company (re: Legacy of the Blood,], p12, "...the Boritsi Trading Company now has permanent offices in Armeikos") and their potential effect on Liffe.

Should we open a seperate thread on this?
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Post by Jester of the FoS »

(this will be here for another day or so, then moved to the Netbook thread to free up space on the main board)

Liffe Project - submissions – style and flavour

As you all know, The Fraternity of Shadows is currently accepting submissions for our ongoing Nocturnal Sea Gazetteer-type project. There are five domains in this area and I’m doing Liffe.

As we did when we started the Souragne project, here are a few thoughts about Eversong’s domain so as to help keep a unified style Articles that differ from this will still be accepted –there are always exceptions in every land - but I encourage people to work with it to create a uniform feel.
I also strongly encourage everyone to read the writing guidelines here, at the end of the first post.

There are rough descriptions of the town and lord in the Book of Crypts. Please read it carefully! Also read the entry in the various campaign settings (Domains of Dread and the Ravenloft Player’s Handbook). Considering uncommon exceptions, your material should not contradict what is found in this description.

Liffe

* Topological Survey: There are a few fertile stretches through the land and Liffe is seeing an influx of farmers from Darkon and other lands. The local forests probably have decent wood; the trees are small but strong.
* Cities: Moondale, Goldendale, Claveria, Armeikos and Aferdale Most are from the Book of Crypts, but one is from Children of the Night: Demons (the Straw God and a likely Dread Possibility/Adventure Hook).
* Locales of Interest: Neverwhere manor. Possibly some ruins from the Krynn Cataclysm.
* Indigenous Plants and Animals: A small note should be made of the local plants and animals, although this should be kept small to not repeat information in the main Nocturnal Sea section.
* Indigenous People: They’re from Krynn IIRC, so a Dragonlance and medieval feel is to be expected, perhaps there might even be some elves, dwarves or Halflings/kender in the hills.
* Daily Life: The Taiwan of the Core. Busy little beavers hard at work
* Language: Krynnish? I’ll try to find Eversong’s specific region.
* Outlook and worldview: There is an overall ‘cluster’ outlook. The Nocturnal Sea is more a land of ethereal, spiritual and intangible than one of the physical and material. Lords tend to be obsess over ideas and philosophies more than carnal or financial wants. Liffe is almost an exception as the locals are obsessed with trade and goods, but this is more for an end goal than the material wealth itself.
* Art and Trade: Liffe is filled with craftsmen and artisans who are desperate to improve their skill. However, being new to trading they are more adept at copying the style of other lands and have not developed one of their own.
* Local History: This is tabula rasa at the moment. I’ll work on it later, after my research.
* Governments: Local barons of which Eversong is one. Although, there might possibly be other barons ruling over other cities.
Indigenous Religions: There is apparently a mismatch of religions in Liffe, including Lendor, a GREYHAWK deity, possibly DRAGONLACE deities and one known only as the “Crop-watcher”.


From the adventure hook bank:
Well, since the best adventures need not revolve around the Lord I see no problems with Liffe. Heck, the land is pretty much a Tabula Rasa, anything is possible.

The main things with Liffe are the struggle between the commoners, nobility and rising middle-class as well as the Baron's struggle to keep the island independent despite the increasing ties between the nobles and the mainland. That almost justifies the large island on the Core, the fact that you have this Lord that would appreciate being an Island of Terror due to the total solitude.

I'd play up that aspect. The tourists from the Core come to this land, there’s influx of settlers hoping for a better life and there’s also people who now spend their lives in trade profiting from the position. Farmers work harder to produce more crops to sell across sea, which they then use to hire more hands and produce even more crops. Meanwhile there are the newly starting craftsmen anxiously producing their wares for sell overseas and the traders and explorers hoping for new exotics to bring back.
Heck, you could run a whole campaign of explorers from Liffe doing reconnaissance for a wealthy noble looking for the next 'new' thing.

Given that many craftsmen are so new to their skill and may lack the years of experience they might be better are mimicking the crafts from Darkon and Nova Vassa than designing their own goods. The island might gain renown producing copies and knock-off goods. I can see waves of cheap supposedly masterwork Darkon pottery being sold in ports across the Nocturnal Sea.
This adds an irony to the situation: one class of people is desperate to trade yet so much needs to be imported that there is little to offer. The wealthy nobles risk spending more than they are making and everyone scrambles to produce wealth, players might be needed to seek out new ore veins, guard what little valuables are there, procure something of tradable value and the like.

There might also be heavily xenophobic elements, the language barriers and the like being mixed with the lord's wish for isolation. I can see problems such as crime, a rise in depravity and social unrest being blamed on outside influence and sedition. There might be strong groups working against the foreign devils and trying to keep the land pure. This is especially hard on the influx of colonists and settlers as well as the traders.

As for the lord himself… Okay, this is harder without changing any elements as presented but lets see if I can fan-wank some explanation or offer some improvements.

Baron Eversong strikes me as a sociopath; he simply cannot express empathy for any other living thing. True emotion escapes him. It would be easy to play him as a tortured failure of a bard then, unable to capture emotion, but that darklord role has been filled (too Juste as Igor might say). Instead, he became a bard strictly to manipulate the emotions of these inferior people and abuse the empathy they felt; manipulate them through song or his spells and where that failed a little physical persuasion. This led him to enchant his harpsichord that I would rework as a phylactery. That makes that Baron a manipulative control freak which adds that much more emphasis to his ruling an island filled with people he can't control. A tad too much like d'Honaire but it's a start.

I'd also make Baron Eversong impatient; he has the raw talent to convince people through song and music, sow them to his cause and philosophies but -quite frankly- he just does not have the patience to slowly work away at them. He makes token efforts to impart his 'wisdom' before he gives up and resorts to magic or force. He's a thinker and a dreamer, a philosopher with a twisted outlook who believes he must convince others to follow his beliefs. Ravenloft's version of Descartes but with a musical edge. This adds a twist to his curse, how every night lasts a hundred years for him. He has all the time in the world –he’s practically an immortal- with naught to do but theorize and think and debate, but during the day he must act quickly. He has centuries to plan for the weekend but he always feels rushed when the time comes. Of course, if he slowed down he could easily plan out his actions and prepare the perfect plans that could sway the masses to his will, but he always fails. He always botches his plans.

According to the Book of Crypts the Baron cannot leave his manor. I would adjust that so he cannot step too far away from his harpsichord and thus effectively the manor. But at the end of the adventure it was presumably destroyed along with the rest of the study. So that changes things. Instead the Baron managed to survive as it was merely smashed not totally destroyed. After repairing it he had the intelligence (after 200 years of thought of course) to keep a sliver or two separate and on his person and thus he can freely roam the countryside. Of course every night, wherever he is, he is transported back to the study. I can't decide if after the night he is returned to where he was or always returns to the manor. It might just be easier to say he has three harpsichords in three identical studies and he returns to the nearest each night to give him more free reign of the domain opposed to being trapped in a 60 mile radius.

Manofevil: Your descriptions remind me of Bill the Butcher from the movie 'Gangs of New York'. If you're looking for a model for this darklord, perhaps that's it.
[original thread contents:
Possibly in the Community projects thread, but I'm fine with it here.

I'm going with much of my ideas from the domain of the month. I'm about to read and re-read the Book of Crypts for a recapturing of the land's feel but imagine an emphasis on time and patience as well as isolation and company will remain.

Lendor will likely not be included. That was added assuming Greyhawk deities were common while the Baron himself was from Krynn/Dragonlance IIRC. When they moved all the adventures in the Book of Crypts into a single land that becomes a minor contradiction.
Perhaps Lendor's church was established from Darkonian settlers (the first of many newcomers)...]
Last edited by Jester of the FoS on Tue Nov 07, 2006 11:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Lord Cyclohexane »

Jester of the FoS wrote:Lendor will likely not be included. That was added assuming Greyhawk deities were common while the Baron himself was from Krynn/Dragonlance IIRC. When they moved all the adventures in the Book of Crypts into a single land that becomes a minor contradiction.
I just figured to keep it in (but change the name of the deity), since the contradiction is present in the original adventure itself. It's in that same The Dark Minstrel that both Baron Evensong appears and also where a random NPC gives you a holy symbol of Lendor. The idea is supposed to be that, since Lendor represents Time, Tedium and Patience, that this would work well with someone who has 100 years worth of time and tedium every night. I think they just ignored the Greyhawk deity vs Dragonlance resident contradiction altogether. I was going to do the same. But if you'd prefer, Lendor can be left out altogether.
Jester of the FoS wrote:Perhaps Lendor's church was established from Darkonian settlers (the first of many newcomers)...
I like the idea of faiths appearing out of the False History of a domain, but if you'd like, I can go with that. I just prefer keeping Lendor as a native faith, since it matches Evensong's situation so well. But I'm pretty easygoing, so your call.
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Post by The Giamarga »

BTW Cyclo, there's much more info available on Lendor than the tidbits at wikipedia. He's a major deity in Greyhawk.


Check out the Greyhawk Deities PDF for a start.
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Post by Gonzoron of the FoS »

might it be possible to Ravenloft-ize Lendor in the same way that Bane became the Lawgiver? Something like the Timemaster or the like? (drawning a creative blank on a good name, buut maybe someone else has one.)
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Post by ChrisNichols »

Religion in Liffe?

Three words: the Thousand Gods.

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Post by Lord Cyclohexane »

The Giamarga wrote:BTW Cyclo, there's much more info available on Lendor than the tidbits at wikipedia. He's a major deity in Greyhawk.
Yep, I caught that from the Wiki article and was going to see if I could find any of the Greyhawk books referenced in the article. But since you've just saved me a bunch of time and probably money with that PDF, let me say, thanks Giamarga!
gonzoron wrote:might it be possible to Ravenloft-ize Lendor in the same way that Bane became the Lawgiver? Something like the Timemaster or the like? (drawning a creative blank on a good name, buut maybe someone else has one.)
Yeah, I was definitely planning to change the name, and for exactly that reason. But I'm also drawing a blank on names. "Father Time" is used everywhere, "Chronos / Kronos" will make one think too much of the Greek deity, etc. And unfortunately names are my weak point... Oh, well, it'll come eventually.
ChrisNichols wrote:Religion in Liffe?

Three words: the Thousand Gods.
Like Shinto or something? So having a bajillion tiny shrines littered around Liffe to all of the different important spirits of this, that, and the other? With a small handful of main deities overseeing things (Amaterasu being primary with Suzaku and ... umm, the storm dude... uh, Seiryuu?)?

It's a good idea, and I really do like the idea of getting away from all of the monotheistic religions currently in the core (Ezra, the Lawgiver, the Morninglord, etc; I think the Eternal Order was really the only polytheistic religion), but I think that's a touch more than I'm really going to be able to do in six weeks... That said, I'm now really tempted to try...
Last edited by Lord Cyclohexane on Mon Nov 06, 2006 5:03 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by NeoTiamat »

Um, actually there's also the Celtic Pantheon in Tepest and Forlorn (and possibly the Shadowlands, depending on how you count it). There's the Sri Rajian Pantheon in Sri Raji (of all places), and the Akiri Pantheon in the Amber Wastes. The monotheistic religions are just more prominent, that's all.
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Post by Lord Cyclohexane »

NeoTiamat wrote:Um, actually there's also the Celtic Pantheon in Tepest and Forlorn (and possibly the Shadowlands, depending on how you count it). There's the Sri Rajian Pantheon in Sri Raji (of all places), and the Akiri Pantheon in the Amber Wastes. The monotheistic religions are just more prominent, that's all.
I was more referencing the Core, but yeah, I did miss the Celtic pantheon overseeing the Tepestani and the Forfarians. Thanks!

And as for overall, you can also add the Voudan spirits for Souragne to the list of polytheism.

Hmmm, thinking about that... so there's already monotheistic and polytheistic. I can't think of any dualistic religions (e.g. Zoroastrianism, with Ahura Mazda vs Ahriman, both equally powerful, unless you want to posit the existence of Zhakata the Provider, who has never appeared, though there is the eternal struggle between Devourer and Provider), and I'd like to see a monolatrous religion along the lines of Kemetic Orthodoxy as well... (as in, only one true deity, but it's so unknowable and ineffable that the people instead worship a huge host of deities, each representing a facet or aspect of the one true one; so it'd appear as a polytheism by those not digging into it, but is truly a monotheism).

In fact, I kinda like using the latter idea, one deity being that of Time itself, broken into the Thousand Gods. Or perhaps having Time as one of the Thousand Gods. I dunno, but both Time and Distance can be broken into infinitely fine portions and still retain their concept, so I'd likely go for a deity of one of those two concepts. Perhaps Lendor can still work...
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Post by Lord Cyclohexane »

Oh, and I want to apologize to Mr. Nichols. I realize that I'm doing the typical fan thing of almost completely ignoring what was actually said, so I want to apologize. All of the stuff above is me taking your idea (or my interpretation of your idea, anyway), mixing it with my own, and creating my own bastard cross-breed hybrid abomination.

Anyway, I did want you to know that this is purposeful seeing-what-I-want-to-see, not accidental. Since I'm trying to come up with creative ideas, I'm taking your note and mixing it into the pot to come up with some freak idea.

That said, I am still curious about the original Kargatane vision of "the Thousand Gods" and am willing to make things fit the original vision, if desired. I realize that, since GazVI was going to be the Nocturnal Sea that you guys probably already had some plans, so don't necessarily just let me ruin that. It's just that, unless I get some more info here, I'm going to run with my own idea.

But I apologize again for seeming to ignore yours, as it was a touch rude. Feel free to jump in! I'm sure that the FoS would *love* more Kargatane contributions, and I'm more than happy to have a little extra direction.
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Post by Jester of the FoS »

I think we're all curious what the Kargatane would have done with the sea...

Personally, since Eversong is from Krynn I'd likely keep some varient of the Krynnish deities (Palladine/Bahamet and Takhisis/Tiamat) but, with that in mind, it might be neat to find the Krynn deity that best fits Lendor and amalgamate the two.
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Post by Lord Cyclohexane »

Hmmm, I see little of Krynnish background in Evensong, except for the note that says that he's from Krynn. There weren't even any references to any elves, dragons, etc in the three adventures in Moondale, Claveria or Armeikos, and only an offhand reference to dwarves. I see no particular reason to be bound to Krynnish deities.

That said, I did look through a thing on them, and find that Gilean or Zivilyn could work from the focus on patience and focus on scholarly things that Lendor also follows. However, none of the Krynnish deities have anything to do with Time as a whole, so none fits Lendor all that well.

As for fitting with the Baron's history, I really can't find any that fit. The self-deception of Evensong (believing himself to be good when he's quite evil) doesn't match any deities, his music is used to corrupt others to his way of thinking (so doesn't match Branchala's use of music to refresh and heal others), his honor is honestly a sham (so doesn't match Kiri-Jolith's true desire to follow honor and help others), etc. There aren't even any evil Krynnish deities dealing with the corrupting of others, they're all outright evil.

That said, if you want to focus on trade in Liffe, Shinare would work out, as she's the patron of merchants, trade and money. I don't have much detail on her, but I'll borrow my friend's 3E Dragonlance book and find out more later.

But what are you looking for in a religion, Jester? Any deity we choose will need to be changed and modified to remove it from its original campaign setting anyway, so we can always just create something new from scratch. We might as well, as once we're done the new deity can't resemble the original, anyway. So if I know a little more of what you're looking for, I can remodel things a bit anyway (as I was going to do with Lendor so that, unless people knew specifically, they wouldn't recognize that new deity as being based on Lendor).

(By Ezra, I need to find a way to summarize...)
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Post by Jester of the FoS »

I'm much more worried about trade and the feel of the land, religion is a minor issue.
I'd rather not add another pantheon and set of gods to the Mists. There's already far more than is needed and having a sprawling list of unrelated and conflicting gods and deities to chose from is distracting. I'd be happier referencing a few small cults, shrines and hedge gods and having the people concerned with wealth and/or philosophy.
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Post by Little Ole Me »

Regarding the Baron's religion, since he's already convinced that he's of good alignment regardless of evidence to the contrary, I think he could easily believe in any good-aligned god of Krynn even if they no longer answer his prayers or grant him spells.

I have no idea how Baron Lyron Eversong can play an active part in ruling his domain since he spends a hundred years in isolation for each night that passes on Liffe. I suppose he could be a tyrant by day, eager to do as much as he can like imposing heavy taxes and draconian laws that he has learned from Elena Faith-hold's bestselling novel How To Alienate Your God before he returns to his isolation at night. This also means that Liffeans - Liffites? - will breathe easier at night. I don't know. That's why I'm eager for the Gazetteer. I'd love to know how you guys come up with a more user-friendly Liffe!
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Post by Lord Cyclohexane »

I'm sorry to have started the religion debate, then... Especially since I've already taken up more than a page on this forum for what was going to be a 1 page maximum length for submission... :oops:

Anyway, though, how can I help out without actually making this more difficult for you? I'd still like to develop the University, if that's something you'd rather not.

Or, overall, is it just plain easier to write the entire thing by yourself instead of having to figure out how to mix in fan submissions? Or just easier if I just stop talking about it and just do it?
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