An observation (ok, possibly a rant)

[Scipio]

I've been noticing a trend in RPGs lately. The DM, it would seem, is now being shifted to a lesser role. I've been reading over on the WotC boards how a lot of the players there feel they have special privileges, and that if the DM lets the story keep them from being the most uber broken characters they can, he's a bad DM. I remember the old WEG Star Wars RPG had a rule about giving one more character point if everyone had fun, this included the GM. But it seems that nowadays that last part would be laughed at, and ignored. Recently I had to quit a group I was DMing, for exactly that reason. The players had decided that the DM was just there to tell the story, that my fun didn't matter at all. In fact one of the players decided that he would handle rules adjudication for me, all I had to do was write up storyline for them to ignore. Am I the only one seeing this development? Has the gaming world really become one where the DM doesn't matter anymore? If any other DMs have seen this I think we need a DMs bill of rights.

[HuManBing]

Sounds like you drew a raw group there, my friend.

I generally play in small groups of old friends, so I don't have my finger on the pulse of the zeitgeist (to mutilate a metaphor). But I recently started up a gaming group and the players were all, with one exception, new to 3E.

That may have helped a little, because I was clearly the one with the most familiarity with the system. However, my players all seemed to enjoy the pre-made WotC game I sent them on, and also my little side-quests and other fun stuff.

It all boils down to personalities. My players all have jobs and are all older than me, so I view my job as making their two hours' gameplay per week something that they look forward to and can enjoy without feeling too frustrated or outgunned.

They're just at L1 so far, recently went up to L2 (in a non Ravenloft setting) so we'll see how they take the increases in level. Ultimately I think your players were just too cocky and you're well rid of them.

[Scipio]

I'll agree with you that I'm better off staying out of that group. The main thing is that I've been seeing this "privileged player" attitude more and more. I'm starting to wonder if it's a function of 3.x D&D or what, as I never saw it back during 2e.

I remember back in the day, the DM had his own books that the players didn't look at. Now if a PC wants a magic item the DM is almost expected to just hand over the DMG. When did I miss this shift? (Again this is going off of average attitudes on the WotC forums, as I feel it's fairly representative of the D&D community at the moment.)

[Jester of the FoS]

I think alot of the DM elitism has worn off and people have grown tired of putting up with DM's crap. Where they railroad them through whatever story they want and the player's are forced to jump through hoop after hoop for the DM. Where the rule book is over-ridden because Rule 1 say the DM is god.
It's a reaction to that older school of gaming.

Plus the role of DM has gotten easier. Back in the day it was a chore. Monsters had to be prepared, DMs had to own more books, they had to know all the crazy rules, etc. Players just played.
Now more rules are in the PHB so it gives the player more knowledge and power. Plus alot of the micromanaging for the DM had grown easier so it's less hard to find someone willing to sit in the big chair.

For years there's been this adversarial relationship between DMs and players where the DM was actively trying to kill the players and his fun was almost more important. The reaction of course is rule lawyering and conflict.


Personally, I wouldn't say this is a "trend" or recent. You just got caught in a bad group you didn't mesh well with. Happens to all of us.

[HuManBing]

Ideally the campaigns should be collaborative, with players pulling their weight too to come up with the gaming world. One of my PCs just captured and subdued a baby black dragon, and started asking questions about what her hometown (of gnomes) would do with it.

I just emailed her back and said "What do you think they'd do with it?"

If it looks like the DM is amenable to player input, I think it helps for those moments when the DM has to put his foot down in midsession and say "go with me on this, and I'll let you have your discussion after the game so we don't slow the flow".

[Scipio]

I agree it should be collaborative effort, the problem is that I've been seeing a lot of players (again not just that one group) that think the burden should be entirely on the DM. At the same time they believe that rule 0 should not exist, and my favorite "anything the players can do that is broken, is not available to NPCs." Basically it's shifted from privileged DMs to privileged players, neither is right IMHO

[NeoTiamat]

Things like that have a tendency towards pendulum swings. Jester is right, there seems to have been a lot of 'DM is God' going on back in the old days (before my time), so now some players are pushing back. That will go on for a while until enough DMs get sick of it and put their foot down, then we swing back the other way.

[BigBadQDaddy]

Things like that have a tendency towards pendulum swings. Jester is right, there seems to have been a lot of 'DM is God' going on back in the old days (before my time), so now some players are pushing back. That will go on for a while until enough DMs get sick of it and put their foot down, then we swing back the other way.

I certainly hope the pendulum does swing back. That is of course if this is an honest trend we are seeing these days. My only concern is that if this becomes the norm, we will see alot less gamers in general. And in all honesty, what is wrong with a little DM privelidge? It takes alot of hard work to do what we do. And if a group of players has a problem with the DM going too far? get a different DM.
I think what the issue here is one of respect. The players need to respect the GM as does the GM need to respect his players.

[HuManBing]

On a completely unrelated note, I find a lot of the illustrations in the supplementary books highly irritating.

You know the ones I'm talking about.

The ones that accompany EVERY FRIGGING NEW FEAT OR PRESTIGE CLASS showing some smarmy jacked up munchkin character smirking as he or she takes out an enemy using this OMFGüberPOWARrr.

It's almost like Wizards realizes it's better to sell supplements to players instead of just the DM because then each group will have to buy five copies instead of one. "I know!" their corporate analysts say "We'll add this new MUST-HAVE SOD OFF EXCELLENT new prestige class/spell list/magic underwear so players will want to have a copy! Cha-CHING!"

...

(catches breath)

...

Erm, this rant is related to the original thread because... erm, because the root of the PC cockiness is obviously crap art.

Uh... ehehehehehurmz...

[JinnTolser]

I've not seen much of this sort of thing around where I live, but I haven't exactly been playing with total strangers, either. Nearly everyone I've gamed with lately is either somebody whom I've introduced to the game, or an old-school gamer who's a friend of the people that got me into gaming. We've struck a pretty good balance between the players and the DM as far as who's in control.

I have been in a game where the DM had the attitude "I'm god in this setting, you have as much control as I say you do." The game didn't last long, and I outright told him that if he didn't want his players' choices to impact HIS story, he ought to be writing a book instead.

I tend to stay away from the WotC D&D boards, as I find a few of the people there to be not a whole lot more mature than the people on the MtG boards. So if there's a new trend forming there, I'm totally out of touch with it.

[HuManBing]

I agree - the DnD WotC boards seems to be full of people who are only interested in showing you how much they know of the RAW ("rules as written") and who will be very ungracious if you introduce anything homebrewed.

Evidently they didn't get the memo that DnD was and always has been intended for user modification to suit personal tastes.

N.B. Twits.

[Scipio]

They do seem to hate anything homebrew. Although I've noticed a trend there as well, the hatred of homebrew applies rather selectively it would seem. A good number of the vehement anti-homebrew crowd love homebrew rules that let them get more power in game. If it lets them get that extra +1 on their character sheets it's the best rule ever...

[alhoon]

I'm starting to wonder if it's a function of 3.x D&D or what, as I never saw it back during 2e.

Sadly, I had seen this in 2nd edition too. As others said it is a matter of personality. There is an attitude to some players, especially young, that
"The DM is a slave" no wonder while there is lack of DMs these days.
Some of this comes from the fact that players believe that a "seat that grants power to create imaginary worlds" is gratifying in itself. Well it is, but to say to the DM's face "We don't care if you prefer to start at level 2! We will start at level 9!" or something such takes much of the fun away.

I agree - the DnD WotC boards seems to be full of people who are only interested in showing you how much they know of the RAW ("rules as written") and who will be very ungracious if you introduce anything homebrewed.
Evidently they didn't get the memo that DnD was and always has been intended for user modification to suit personal tastes.

Seconded

[JinnTolser]

*Scratches head in confusion.*

How can a playgroup decide to overrule the DM on something like starting level? Even if they say "We're starting at level 9 instead of 2 like you wanted," the DM can just say "Okay, sure. Roll initiative against the pit fiend that just showed up to 'say hello' to your level 9 characters."

Seems to me the DM has all the cards in a contest like that. I grant you, with the two sides coming to the table with that kind of attitude it's going to be a short and unpleasant game, but the point is how can a group even try to pull that?

[Jester of the FoS]

I agree - the DnD WotC boards seems to be full of people who are only interested in showing you how much they know of the RAW ("rules as written") and who will be very ungracious if you introduce anything homebrewed.

Evidently they didn't get the memo that DnD was and always has been intended for user modification to suit personal tastes.

N.B. Twits.

You forgot about making little gamer-specific fallacies.


Okay, but at risk of being a dick it seems like Scipio didn't fulfill his DM role either.
"In fact one of the players decided that he would handle rules adjudication for me..."
This is only something player's do when they feel you simply do not know enough of the rules. A DM's job is to run the story and act as referee and if they don't know if dodge bonuses stack, the DC modifiers for tumble checks going through three threatened squares, or how to determine CR when adding class levels to monsters.
I mean, it is a game. You'd get cranky playing baseball if the umpire just made up a bunch of home rules and told you to just accept them, or was a little fuzzy on the foul ball rule.