Café de Nuit

I like the ideas of including the Weathermays in with the House... it's turned it attention onto each of the noble families in turn, and only the Weathermays and possibly the Wescoat are left... they are the only ones left, their time has come. And wouldn't it be just appropriate if they were done in by one of their own?

Also, just reread the Gazetteer III entry on Mordent a few days ago, and it seems that the evil that dwells within Gryphon Hill predates the house. Mordent, on the prime plane where it originated, was the site of at least one major war, so Gryphon Hill could've been a battle site that lead to it's current status as a Mecca for ghosts. Maybe a commander refused to retreat, forced his men to fight a Last Stand on the hill when evacuation was possible... something dark enough to cause him to become a darklord had Ravenloft been in existence at the time. Years afterwards, the place was haunted by the ghosts of the war dead, even after the battle itself was forgotten, resulting in the curse of the location. Nobles ignored local superstition, built the House on top of the Hill, for it's location and the view it offered, and because of the Hill's curse, the House became an accursed local as well. Fast forward to the Alchemist incident, and the destruction of the apparatus brings back the soul of the fallen commander, since graduated to a demon/devil of some sort (or whatever we wish) ... aaaand bound beneath Gryphon Hill, the location where his ultimate shame occurred, made the darklord for his previous vile actions as Mordent is drawn into the Domains of Dread. Maybe, it was even granted dual-lordship with Goedfry for a while, the two of them bound to Gryphon Hill by their evils. Over the years, as each of the noble families fall, the bounds upon this creature weakened, and now only the Weathermays hold him imprisoned. Aaaaaaand, we've got a story arc! HUZAH!

Lets see here: Ghosts, check. Involves the Weathermays, check. The House being central, check. Mordent a relative safe haven, check. Keeps to the majority of the rules of Ravenloft, check. All we're missing is the Influential in Core thing... but having the darklord form a cult or something dedicated to it's release, which could be rather disasterious to the core, could help rectify that problem.

Anybody have anything to build on this idea here?

I also think that the unnamed evil possessing the House should be the Darklord.

If we make the evil possessing the House the Darklord, then we don't break "laws" of Ravenloft.

I have to confess, though, I like the idea of keeping that power unnamed and mysterious. Some of the best Japanese ghost stories we're seeing these days have an element of bizarre, unknowable behavior in them. If the motives of this evil force aren't readily known, then it gets scarier.

We do, however, need to spell out some specific things the house wants (Weathermays dead, people scared, certain seemingly random places haunted). We don't, however, have to explain *why* the House wants these things.

There are also some big metaphysical questions here. We are doing this reboot in 4e, right? If so, we need to talk about Mordent's relationship to the Shadowfell. Even if it's in 3.5 or 3.75 (Pathfinder), we need to talk about the House's relationship with the near Ethereal.

Agreed, Irving... however, I'd prefer to have the evil known for the DMs, and possibly the DMs alone. Nothing the players should be aware of, so the players retain that feeling of horror, but something for the DMs to use... it's a lot harder for one to DM 'evil' rather than 'tyranical vampire lord pining for the love he cannot have, and filled with rage because of it'... from my experience, at least.

And I really do think using the noble houses as living seals on the house gives it the best motive yet. There is one (possibly two) house(s) remaining... all that stands in the way of... whatever it is... achieving the freedom it so desires. A physical form, temporal control over it's nation and subjects, worship and praise, etc etc.

As for it's relation with shadowfel/Etheral... now, I'm not certain how Ravenloft's shadowfel is being handled, but on the Ethereal plane, I belive it should be not only corporeal... but far, far larger as well. It's 'true majesty', if you will... something about the same size as Castle Ravenloft. As well, I like the idea that it continues to draw in ghosts from not only Mordent, but the entirety of the Core as well... giving one reason to go to the house even if it's not central to the campaign, to free a loved one from undeath, or to retrieve vital information from a ghost that may yet linger therein.

Sorry, haven't had time to follow this whole project as much as I'd like, but just wanted to mention that while I'm not opposed to the house as DL, it's got to have some sort of relateable, human(-ish) character and backstory, or you're better off keeping Godefroy. DL's aren't "just evil". It's a tenet of the setting. The two inanimate DL's we've got already (Ebonbane and the House of Lament) were both given backstories rich enough to qualify. (or at least attempted. I'm not sold on the HoL, myself.) You'd have to make it a doozy for a house to be DL of a land as character-rich as Mordent.

...and here I'll just put on my Evil Creative-Type Hat, grin evilly, and ask: "why?"

Domain size doesn't directly correlate to depth of depravity - Azalin's bad, but there are worse, and Darkon is huge. Neither does supernatural power. We don't even know what the Dark Power are; why should we presume that they abide by rules we can comprehend?

Maybe the House isn't a Darklord as we understand it, but it might be a sinkhome of evil taken to its logical extreme, causing it to function as a Darklord without "being a Darklord".

Heck, can anyone define what a Darklord is, properly?

Well, I'm all for pushing the boundaries, and you are reimagining everything, but IMHO:

"Domains have darklords, evil beings given power and curses to fit their deeds. The darklords are selected by mysterious criteria by the Dark Powers, but it's clear that pure evil and bodycount are not the determining factor. Darklords have a sense of style, tragedy and pathos in addition to their evil. The Darklord's domain reflects the nature of the Darklord and his (or her or its) particular brand of evil."

is not really negotiable.

I'm not saying the domain size is related to the size of the evil, but rather, the domain character is related to the character of the evil. And while simple evil houses have their place in Ravenloft, Mordent has way too much character (regardless of size) to be tailored to a simple evil house.

Again, just my opinion.... but I'm right.

ETA: Note that I said simple above. A sufficiently complex (in character) house, could be darklord of Mordent.

Also, before anyone brings up Gwydion or the God-Brain, those are exactly the sort of aberrations that should be fixed by this project, not emulated.

The darklord and domain always reflect each other, so the house likely does have some kind of human(ish) backstory that can be related to. Mordent is the domain of the past haunting the present, of sins that stain the blood and that time cannot wash away. Something must have happened at that house, before Godefroy, before even Strahd and Azalin and the Apparatus, something that made it into what it is today.

I will add, however, I feel the darklord system should not be used as an iron shackle on the creative process. It has its advantages, and also disadvantages, which is why exceptions keep cropping up.

I'll agree that the House definitely deserves an involved and Gothic horror story. I'm just implying that the we don't have to put a face on the House - whether that "face" is Godefroy or someone else - to make a solid tale of pathos, tragedy, and evil worth hanging a Domain on. I think that we're getting rid of Ebonbane and the House of Lament in this incarnation of Ravenloft, so Gryphon Hill can stand as our sole exception. (Although I still want Ebonbane lurking around as an NPC somewhere.)

After all, most of the absolutely astonishing ghost stories in the real world hang on the place that's haunted, not the ghost that may or may not be doing the haunting. The Winchester Mystery house is so amazing that you could almost port it right over to Gryphon Hill and set it down and you'd be all right. Ditto with movies - some of the classic ghost-story movies hinge on the houses, not the ghosts. This can work really well. We definitely do need a backstory, and a strong one at that, but the exact details can by mysterious in places. As deep as the evil of the House on Gryphon Hill goes, there may well always be one more layer, one more foundation to the depravity, that makes the "real" evil.

Would someone explain to me why Godefroy isn't appealing? I honestly don't get it. He's an arrogant snob who committed suicide in an attempt to evade divine justice. He sees women as weak, and looks down on all his social inferiors, which means basically everyone. He commands an army of ghosts that he beats into submission for any little thing. He plots in secret against the living and has enslaved the father of the Core's most famous monster-hunters to be his lackey.

What's missing for a good DL?!

I voted for keeping him as is, for this reason. I dug up my PC's battle royale with Godefroy; can someone can point to me where I'm going against canon in that? People seemed to like my interpretation of him, and that's all it was: an interpretation. I don't think I exceeded canon much, except for providing a way to kill him once and for all.

I guess if Godefroy needed something IMO, that would be it.

The issue I have with Godefroy is he seems like a victim of the domain's problems rather than the source. Godefroy is a great NPC, for all the reasons listed! But the original module, as far as I know, didn't start with him as Darklord, and despite the Gaz's efforts to have him start doing things, I still get that vibe from him. It doesn't help that Shrahd and Azalin seem responsible for dragging the plane in, not Godefroy.

I mean, what's with all the ghosts? What was wrong with the house of Griffon Hill before Godefroy? Why did all the noble families die out? Godefroy didn't do it. As far as I recall, it was happening before Godefroy murdered his wife and children. The Gaz keeps emphasizing the house being twisted more than Godefroy causing anything, so his rising as a ghost feels more like a consequence of the domain than the domain being a consequence of him.

If you want to keep him on as Darklord, I'd tweak his story a bit.

I have a similar problem with Godefroy. As DasSoviet mentioned, the evil in Gryphon Hill predates him (And seems much more mysterious and interesting), and his backstory is lacking, particularly since he was a (very) minor character in HoGH, and the excuse for him being the darklord in the books before GazIII was lame, to say the least (The domain had already been taken, and he was the most powerful evil creature in it, so please add 2+2).

In general, I see RL as having three pillars, in terms of domains: Barovia, Darkon and Mordent. Two of those pillars are supported by strong, interesting characters, but to me Mordent is lacking. Even in your description, DS, Godefroy seems more of a bunch of defects than a real, tragic, gothic character I can relate too (Precisely what Gonzoron said earlier). I know GazIII did a lot to increase his appeal, but for me that left him with an interesting future, and a somewhat hollow past (Not that it can't be fixed, though: This project is aimed to be a major retcon, anyway).

I have to say, however, that your ideas on the "Godefroy's history and present" thread are awesome, and that looks like a great adventure to run; also, your defense of Godefroy comes as something of a relief: I was somewhat confused with Godefroy getting so many votes, and with no one supporting him on the discussion.

Just a thought: part of Godefroy's problem as a darklord is that he lacks any real contrasting qualities, to throw his maliciousness into sharp relief. He doesn't have natural charm like Lukas, or ostensibly-good intentions like Mordenheim, or a heroic past like Strahd's, or even a warped sense of humor like the Dark Twins. He's just a stuffy, uncompromising, temperamental jerk, in life as in death.

Rotipher of the FoS wrote:Just a thought: part of Godefroy's problem as a darklord is that he lacks any real contrasting qualities, to throw his maliciousness into sharp relief. He doesn't have natural charm like Lukas, or ostensibly-good intentions like Mordenheim, or a heroic past like Strahd's, or even a warped sense of humor like the Dark Twins. He's just a stuffy, uncompromising, temperamental jerk, in life as in death.

So maybe he's actually keeping the deeper evil of the House at bay?

Rotipher of the FoS wrote: He's just a stuffy, uncompromising, temperamental jerk, in life as in death.

Very very true. Ghost stories have a potential to be romantic; where the romance - or even appeal - in Godefroy's story?