Café de Nuit

The introduction of Churchsteeple root (Dragon Mag #273, Wicked Garden) into my campaign has raised some questions about how much Van Ricthen's little herb could really do under the right circumstances. When a person wears or carries a fresh root, it acts as a ward against evil. That's well and good, but the mechanics (i.e. protection from evil, as the spell) include effects that are much more powerful. This spell suspends charm and compulsion spells for the duration, which in this case takes several days!

So...could Dominic's entire web of intrigue really be brought down by careful delivery of flower corsages and boutonneires? What would it mean for several of the Obedient to have their wills to themselves again?

Now, as much as I love using little tidbits like this, I have to wonder if Owen K.C. Stephens intended for this little flower to be the fuel for so much anarchy. Compared to the other RL herbs in the article, this one seems quite overpowered. Maybe Owen was only thinking of the penalties to hit and the bonuses to saving throws? At any rate, the article gives three options for the game stats:

* PfE for anyone who carries it; stays fresh for 2d4 days. Any creature with good olfactory sense can smell a churchsteeple root at twice the range it can smell a human.

* PfE, 10' radius for anyone who carries it. Fresh for 2d4 days. Smell can be detected by weres and undead as far as 20 miles.

* prevents carrier from becoming a werecreature or vampire, grants +2 to saves vs. necromantic spells. Use is immediately detected by darklords.

Note that I've chosen the first version, but the second would be even more devastating to Dominic and the Brain: any Obedient sent to investigate would come to his or her senses when they got within 10'. You could just walk around with some and watch the chaos, or give it someone that spends time with the Council of Brilliance. OTOH, the last version is completely different.

Anyone wanna weigh in on this one? What version would you allow in your games? What changes would you make? I think I'll make it like repelling a vampire, where it's based on the faith of the holder. Thus, you can't just wear it unwittingly, but you must wear it to protect yourself form evil. If you want to help someone break a charm, you give them the herb and tell them it's a ward against evil. If they accept it and wear it to ward off evil, it breaks the charm.

Without the article handy, i only ask is there any mention of the scarcity of this plant? Perhaps the reason no one has brought down the ring of Obedients is because there simply isnt enough of the stuffto be effective. Where is it grown? It could take 2d4 days to make it TO Port-a-Lucine if it only grows on the eastern slopes of the Balinoks, for instance.


If Darklords become immediately aware of its existance, the would-be florist would probably get several visits from thugs or even the Darklord himself! And if they are aware of it, why dont they just agent-orange the stuff where it grows? Are they aware of its very existance, or do they become aware the moment someone uses it with INTENT to circumvent their powers?

It assumes a lot, btw, that a character has discovered the very nature of the situation in Dementlieu to presume he even intends to the herb in this way.

Protection from Evil and Magic Circle against evil Have the following rules
Both of which it provides

Rule 1
The barrier prevents possession or the issuing of mental commands.

It doesn't stop charm or domination effects that are currently active.It only prevents the charmed or dominated from receiving new commands.That doesn't stop someone dominated from killing you.It just stops them from following a new order.


Rule 2
Its suppresses compulsions targeting the one protected while it is in effect.
It doesn't break or suppress compulsions in effect just new ones.

That is room for evil 101.They cannot tell if they have failed a save since they feel no affect anyway.They can be dominated they just won't know.
I would make the roll for the player using it since they cannot tell if they save or not.All they would know it doesn't affect them.


Dark reality time.
The root remains fresh for as long as it protects 2d4 days.

Any creature with good olfactory can smell it at twice the distance they can smell a human.This is when carried.

This is even if its in a jar.One its 20 mile smell radius for were and undead.That is huge not accounting for wind and if you think I won't account for wind then I got a bridge to sell you. Were and undead with exceptional smelling can smell it at 40 miles since we doubled above we double again.

Darklords can sense it the instant it is used.You think they not investigating this quickly.

Modernt Location and only location
The Weathermay twins garden.(you think they going to let anyone take some)

Falkovnia (Vlad Darkov going to let hem waltz around with this.)

Invidia, Verberek, Kartkass ( We Talking Were central with two of these)

Strahdsbuddy wrote:Without the article handy, i only ask is there any mention of the scarcity of this plant? Perhaps the reason no one has brought down the ring of Obedients is because there simply isnt enough of the stuffto be effective. Where is it grown? It could take 2d4 days to make it TO Port-a-Lucine if it only grows on the eastern slopes of the Balinoks, for instance.

It grows in heavily wooded areas, including Falkovnia. Hence, not very far at all.

If Darklords become immediately aware of its existance, the would-be florist would probably get several visits from thugs or even the Darklord himself! And if they are aware of it, why dont they just agent-orange the stuff where it grows?

Okay, that's option 3, which wouldn't be a serious problem for Dominic or the Brain, because it doesn't provide PfE effects, but only the bonus against necromancy. But as I read it, the DL knows the moment someone uses it.

Are they aware of its very existance, or do they become aware the moment someone uses it with INTENT to circumvent their powers?

The latter. Again, this is option 3, the anti-necro version. Dominic would have little to worry about there. My version has been option 1, which doesn't let DL's know, and from which Dominic has a lot to fear!

It assumes a lot, btw, that a character has discovered the very nature of the situation in Dementlieu to presume he even intends to the herb in this way.

Well, there are other sources that suggest that this isn't a total secret. For one, the FoS uses their special rings that guard against DL powers.

Delyun wrote:Protection from Evil and Magic Circle against evil Have the following rules

Yes, I know the rules.

That is room for evil 101.They cannot tell if they have failed a save since they feel no affect anyway.They can be dominated they just won't know.
I would make the roll for the player using it since they cannot tell if they save or not.All they would know it doesn't affect them.

If this were about warding, sure. We're talking about using it to suppress an active charm, already in effect.

Any creature with good olfactory can smell it at twice the distance they can smell a human.This is when carried.

This is even if its in a jar.One its 20 mile smell radius for were and undead.That is huge not accounting for wind and if you think I won't account for wind then I got a bridge to sell you.

I don't understand...are you combining the penalties?

Were and undead with exceptional smelling can smell it at 40 miles since we doubled above we double again.

What?! Why are we doubling again? Even combining all three versions of this flower, there's nothing to suggest we should double it again.

Darklords can sense it the instant it is used.You think they not investigating this quickly.

On the contrary, if you pick option three, then many would investigate. Meredoth, for instance, and Azalin. But why would Dominic care about someone with resistance to necromancy?

Modernt Location and only location
The Weathermay twins garden.(you think they going to let anyone take some)

Where does it say this is the only location in Mordent?!

Falkovnia (Vlad Darkov going to let hem waltz around with this.)

Why not? Why should he care?!

Invidia, Verberek, Kartkass ( We Talking Were central with two of these)

Okay, but against werebeasts this stuff does nothing noticeable. Either they can smell it, but it grants only a tiny shift in probablitity (version 2) or it prevents lycanthropy, but only the DL knows (version 3).

At any rate, my real question was about version 1 against the Obedient.

I can think of a few work-arounds for version 1 vs. Obedient. Perhaps the simplest is that, when Churchsteeple goes up against Darklord, Churchsteeple loses. I freely confess it's a pretty brute-force way of getting around the difficulty, but it solves the problem in one easy step (the compulsions of darklords are not like those of common men!).

Other questions--so it grows in heavily wooded areas, but is it common? And are its virtues widely known? How did the PCs learn about it? Could it be the subject of a massive disinformation campaign in Dementlieu? ("Handling churchsteeple root causes blindness! Everyone knows that!")

How aware are the Obedient generally of their Obedient status? I would think that generally Dominic uses the lightest possible touch; there are lots of ways to influence and control people that won't betray his real hold over them. It may suppress the magical hold Dominic has over his followers, but it won't change his power over their political future, his knowledge of their dirty secrets, their loyalty to the state of Dementlieu and its legitimate government, their "friendly" relationship with him...just to name a few things that might keep an Obedient on Dominic's side even without magical compulsion.

Ok lets go back to the source and edition we talking here.We are talking 2nd edition according to the source so lets build from there.

Protection from evil 2nd ed.
Any attempt to exercise mental control over the protected creature (in their example the subject has been charmed by a vampire) or to invade and take over its mind is blocked.
The protection does not prevent a vampire's charm nor end it,but it does prevent the vampire from issuing mental commands through the barrier.Their example of the vampire charm makes sense.The vampire attempted to charm him.It worked but, the vampire can't issue any thing he will listen to till the spell drops.

Protection from evil 3.5 ed

The barrier blocks any attempt to possess or issue mental commands through the barrier.

The protection does not prevent effects from targeting the creature but suppresses them for the duration of the spell.


Going with both versions it is easy to say this.The spell doesn't stop any compulsion effect already in place.It only stops new commands.It doesn't stop charmed people from being charmed or dominated people from being dominated.It just prevents new orders.

New compulsions cast into the radius or on the carrier are suppressed but effects brought into the radius are not suppressed.

I don't think they meant for protection from evil to be an anti-magic compulsion field.

DeepShadow of FoS wrote:So...could Dominic's entire web of intrigue really be brought down by careful delivery of flower corsages and boutonneires? What would it mean for several of the Obedient to have their wills to themselves again?

That sounds like a cool secret society. Couldn't Dominic's control over most of society mitigate this somewhat? High tariffs on anything from Falkovnia (or a complete ban, they're hostile to each other), disinformation campaigns like mentioned before, complete control over the latest fashions making out the flower to be incredibly gauche - perhaps even an insult. And, like others have stated, it would take quite the knowledge of the Domain's dark secrets, as well as a massive mobilization attempt to do much more than dent the surface of D'Honaire's web.

Delyun wrote:I don't think they meant for protection from evil to be an anti-magic compulsion field.

I never said it was.

All I'm saying is that a lot can happen if, say, the Council of Brilliance stopped being Obedient for 2d4 days each. That is, if the effect was suppressed, not dispelled.

Nathan of the FoS wrote:I can think of a few work-arounds for version 1 vs. Obedient. Perhaps the simplest is that, when Churchsteeple goes up against Darklord, Churchsteeple loses. I freely confess it's a pretty brute-force way of getting around the difficulty, but it solves the problem in one easy step (the compulsions of darklords are not like those of common men!).

Well, it does make you wonder about other PfE effects, and whether the utmost of a DL's ability ought to be suppressed by a 1st level spell.

Other questions--so it grows in heavily wooded areas, but is it common? And are its virtues widely known? How did the PCs learn about it?

Not sure how you would determine how common it is. I'd rate it as uncommon, but not rare. A PC was introduced to it by Liebheldin of the Door, who grows it and used it to protect the PC from a ghost's Malevolence. It's been 4 days since she got it, and she's about to use it to free another PC from charm, hoping it's still fresh enough.

Could it be the subject of a massive disinformation campaign in Dementlieu? ("Handling churchsteeple root causes blindness! Everyone knows that!")

Yes, that sounds likely. Another such herb, Adder's Tongue, is illegal in Borca because it's considered a narcotic. Same idea.

How aware are the Obedient generally of their Obedient status? I would think that generally Dominic uses the lightest possible touch; there are lots of ways to influence and control people that won't betray his real hold over them. It may suppress the magical hold Dominic has over his followers, but it won't change his power over their political future, his knowledge of their dirty secrets, their loyalty to the state of Dementlieu and its legitimate government, their "friendly" relationship with him...just to name a few things that might keep an Obedient on Dominic's side even without magical compulsion.

This is an excellent question. Considering that Dominic's writeup in LotB had him picking out professions for his family regardless of their wishes or inclinations, I figured he had a pretty heavy hand. But then he can't be forcing things on the Obedient all the time via Domination, because that spell effect is so limited.

Then again, here I think we're getting into the poorly executed game mechanics for the Obedient, as apart from the Churchsteeple.

The suppression of magical effects is from the anti-magic spell. No where in protection from evil does it say it suppresses on going magical effects.They said mind control effects cast at some one protected from evil are suppressed not magical or mind influencing effects that have already taken place.

Delyun wrote:No where in protection from evil does it say it suppresses on going magical effects.

SRD wrote:Second, the barrier blocks any attempt to possess the warded creature (by a magic jar attack, for example) or to exercise mental control over the creature (including...effects that grant the caster ongoing control over the subject, such as dominate person). The protection does not prevent such effects from targeting the protected creature, but it suppresses the effect for the duration of the protection from evil effect.

If you're saying it doesn't work if cast after the domination effect, I'd call that a radical interpretation of the text, and one that I disagree with.

Even though it'd throw a spanner in the works for Dominic -- and the Brain too, for that matter, if you treat psionic domination as magical -- I'd be tempted to leave the command-blocking effect intact. Don't think of it as a game-breaker, but as something the Dark Powers added to the Core specifically to mess with Dominic. Why shouldn't Mr. Mesmerism have to work for a living? If he wants to keep his power, he's darn well going to have to deal with the occasional headache.

I don't think that would work for two reasons:

Protection from Evil was altered in 3E Ravenloft to only work if the evil target is known to be evil. If Obedients aren't quite conscious of the evil nature of D'Honaire, then it wouldn't work.

I think that in the RLDMG, it's stated somewhere that immunities do not work on Darklords. The immunity turns into a + 4 bonus to the appropriate saving throw.

So, I wouldn't think it'd work as well as suggested, but it does make for an interesting plot.

Obedient is a Extraordinary effect.

Extraordinary abilities aren’t magical, though they might
break the laws of physics. Effects or areas that negate or disrupt magic
have no effect on extraordinary abilities.They aren’t subject
to dispelling, and they function normally in an antimagic
field.

Then the obedient can walk up dance a jig, waltz, sing cry and walk out and still be dominated.Since protection from evil disrupts magic with its suppression it cannot work against the extraordinary obedient effect.